AlexanderM

I would change the labels to: BB53: "first mention of robin, aqualad, and kid flash being friends" BB54: "first team-up of robin, aqualad, and kid flash" BB60: "first appearance of the teen titans founded by robin, aqualad, kid flash, and wonder girl".

If 54 was never published, 60 would not have been published. That's a 'maybe'. It is, on the other hand, save to say that BB54 alone is NOT enough to call anything Teen Titans. 60... now that IS enough to introduce the Teen Titans - even if 54 never existed. Now - they might or might not have printed 60....without 54, but that is speculation.

That's not what Robin says. That you have to make stuff up doesn't support your argument. Let's go to the videotape. So, try again. Oh, and still waiting for you to identify where in B&B 54 the Teen Titans first appears. Or are you really claiming that a text box after the story is their first appearance? This has been covered already… Not sure that picture strengthens or weakens your argument. Doesn't the word bubble clearly state "Teen Titans is a group of junior crime-fighters I set up, after Kid-Flash, Aqualad and I helped the teenagers of Hatton Corners"…? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see any mention of Wonder Girl in there. B&B #54 ends with the team being formed. Wonder Girl was obviously not a founding member to the team being blatantly absent from Robin's comment in this issue. I think this one obviously points to B&B 54 as the 1st appearance of the TEEN TITANS…straight from Robin's mouth... In B&B 54, Robin, Kid Flash and Aqualad help the teenagers of Hatton Corners. "AFTER" that, Robin set up a group of junior crime-fighters called the Teen Titans. Not only does Robin explicitly say that, we know it must be so, because nowhere in B&B 54 does Robin or anyone else set up a group of junior crime-fighters. Three actors acting together does not make a theater company. If those three actors set up a theater company to act together on a regular basis in the future, then they've formed a theater company. And if that theater company is formed after the three actors did one play in Hatton Corners, that does not make Hatton Corners the site of the founding of the Teen Titans Theater Company. Yes, I think it is very clear that the group of 4 was founded after 54 and before 60.

DC on their own Web site (not a wiki) says that wonder girl was an original founding member. Not a member that was later included. We know that did not happen in 54. So according to DC the foundation of TT could not have been in 54. DC well apparently say whatever is necessary to sell books but comics history and looking at what actually happens in the books clearly shows 60 to be the first appearance of TT. 54 is a back story explaining some of the reason for the team (doesn't explain wonder girl etc).

"Mad hatters" is a football team I set up after Roy and I met at a reunion last month. We thought about it a bit and since we gel really well I called him back and asked if we should try to set up a team of old school friends. ... I imagine that is what he is saying. After they disgusted that teaming up with other teens was a good idea, they wanted to make a proper team consisting of those 4. That obviously did not happen in 54.

Two things should be enough (besides DC publishing in comics clearly that 60 WAS the first appearance etc.): If BB60 was never published.... no-one would know the Teen Titans. The Teen Titans would not exist! Simply because they were founded between 54 and 60 with "Wonder Girl as original founding member".

Someone who bought comics in the 70ties and 80ties before the Internet just relied on what others said.... and misinformation spread and was hard to refute. Nowadays we can inform ourselves much better with the use of the Internet.

I didn't mean what the wiki said. Rather what the text in the comic said (see the images).

I agree with you! #60 is the first issue a team calls itself the Teen Titans. It's the first issue of Wonder Girl as an original member of a team that first calls itself the Teen Titans. But is it the first issue in the story of the formation of that team? No. 54 is the first issue that begins the story of the Teen Titans. There would be no 60 if there was no 54. You cannot argue the connection between these two books. They are directly linked. 54 begat 60. Ok, we agree BB60 is the first appearance of Teen Titans. Now, if we want to track the event that lead to the formation then we can go back further than BB54 for sure. BB54 was an important event but not the first. BB53 for part and happened before BB54 obviously. BB53 could be "the first mention of aqualad, robin and Kid Flash knowing each other" BB54 could be "the first team-up of aqua-lad robin and Kid Flash." BB60 is the first appearance of the Teen Titans"

Ok. I didn't even know of this. That surely settles it even for someone with the basement full of BB54s. We have a comic story which clearly says that BB54 was not the TT, only where they met. BB60 was the first appearance.

It's true they could not have formed a team in BB60 if some of them hadn't met in BB54. But does that really make 54 the first appearance? Then I guess Superman 76 is the first appearance of JLA because they couldn't have made JLA without Superman and Batman meeting in Superman 76 and thus being in the same universe...? Just because people meet doesn't mean they form a team. Not until there actually is announced a team. And ... where it all began? It began earlier in 53 then... JLA began in....?? We cannot say Beatles began 4 years before they actually formed Beatles.. just because "some of the members met then and if they hadn't met, then there would be no Beatles..." True, they met earlier... their story shows that... but they did not form the Beatles until they actually did. You're agreeing it's true that the team in 60 couldn't have formed if they hadn't met in 54. Doesn't that in and of itself say something? My point is both 54 and 60 are two sides of the same coin -- one is the result and continuation of the other. I'll say it again: there would be no 60 if there wasn't a 54. For a Teen Titans completist and collector, 54 is where it begins. Would DC have published 60 if 54 hadn't been so well received? I think BB54 was an important event towards creating TT in BB60. If no BB53 and BB54 then there may never have formed the idea to create TT in BB60. However, BB54 itself is no guarantee there would ever be a TT. So important to the foundation in BB60, but not sufficient. Just like Paul and John Lennon's first meeting was important to the later formation of the Beatles, but it did not guarantee that they later would actually go ahead and form the band. It's only not sufficient in your opinion. Honestly if you think the story of the Beatles only begins when they start calling themselves the Beatles, then that may even be worse than saying #60 is where the story of the Teen Titans begins This is the chicken and the egg. The Kobayashi Maru. Well, "if you think the story of JLA started in BB28 then..." right? Many many event were necessary for BB28. Superman 76, Showtime 4 and so on and on. But still..... JLA did in fact start at the time it was founded. Just like other teams did. And just like TT did. In BB60. Th Beatles certainly didn't start just because John and Paul met. It started some time later... after they had jammed together, and met the other guys... Just like the JLA certainly didn't start just because Superman and Batman met. Btw. Was Wonder Girl a founding member of TT?

It's true they could not have formed a team in BB60 if some of them hadn't met in BB54. But does that really make 54 the first appearance? Then I guess Superman 76 is the first appearance of JLA because they couldn't have made JLA without Superman and Batman meeting in Superman 76 and thus being in the same universe...? Just because people meet doesn't mean they form a team. Not until there actually is announced a team. And ... where it all began? It began earlier in 53 then... JLA began in....?? We cannot say Beatles began 4 years before they actually formed Beatles.. just because "some of the members met then and if they hadn't met, then there would be no Beatles..." True, they met earlier... their story shows that... but they did not form the Beatles until they actually did. You're agreeing it's true that the team in 60 couldn't have formed if they hadn't met in 54. Doesn't that in and of itself say something? My point is both 54 and 60 are two sides of the same coin -- one is the result and continuation of the other. I'll say it again: there would be no 60 if there wasn't a 54. For a Teen Titans completist and collector, 54 is where it begins. Would DC have published 60 if 54 hadn't been so well received? I think BB54 was an important event towards creating TT in BB60. If no BB53 and BB54 then there may never have formed the idea to create TT in BB60. However, BB54 itself is no guarantee there would ever be a TT. So important to the foundation in BB60, but not sufficient. Just like Paul and John Lennon's first meeting was important to the later formation of the Beatles, but it did not guarantee that they later would actually go ahead and form the band.

Uh .. no. It started with three teenage heroes. And it ended with 5 or 6 after hitting a height of 11 or 12. Ok... I guess one way to determine when the TT started is to see who DC says were the original founding members. If Wonder Girl was not a founding member - then perhaps BB54 could be the first appearance of TT. If Wonder Girl was a founding original member, then it cannot be 54, but must be 60 which is the first appearance. According to DC Wonder Girl was a founding member..... Wonder girl was a founding member... hmmmm... Where does that leave us and what do we know? 1. We know that Wonder Girl did NOT found any group in BB54. 2. We know that Wonder Girl was part of TT in BB60. That leaves two options. Either TT was founded in BB60 or it was founded after BB54 but before BB60. ____ For me, BB60 was the first appearance of the TT. 53 tells the story of how Ringo, and Paul meet... 54 how they got to know John and played music together. BB60 tells the story of when they actually decided they clicked so well they formed the Beatles. But I understand the confusion fully. CGC labels... just like people still thing Hulk271 is the first appearance of the little fury critter... and because DC have conflicting messages in this regards. But overall I think it is fairly clear that the most logical conclusion is that it is 60. Wonder Girl is a founding member and must be in BB60 then, there is no formal group in 53 or 54, only that some of them knew each other.

It's true they could not have formed a team in BB60 if some of them hadn't met in BB54. But does that really make 54 the first appearance? Then I guess Superman 76 is the first appearance of JLA because they couldn't have made JLA without Superman and Batman meeting in Superman 76 and thus being in the same universe...? Just because people meet doesn't mean they form a team. Not until there actually is announced a team. And ... where it all began? It began earlier in 53 then... JLA began in....?? We cannot say Beatles began 4 years before they actually formed Beatles.. just because "some of the members met then and if they hadn't met, then there would be no Beatles..." True, they met earlier... their story shows that... but they did not form the Beatles until they actually did.

Teen Titans is 4 TEENAGE HEROES. Even if there are other books where 1, 2 or 3 of them appears it is not the Teen Titans. BB53 and BB54 are both part of the circumstances that lead to the official formation of the first team in BB60. ... Some drummers, guitarists, and singers have worked together, but they cannot be said to be the beginning of a group until they actually come out and say "we are from today Metallica!" (or another group). For me TT's first appearance was BB60. BB53 and BB54 are where some of them got to know and thus the lead up to the formation and first appearance of the team.

When will the Amazing Fantasy 15 bubble burst?. It is not exactly a Golden Age book or scarce in any way. Surely it will burst... surely.

Impressice Sandman collection. What was the first Sandman in SA?

If X-Force #2 is, there's probably a good chance #11 will at some point. I doubt it. People are attached to Deadpool, not Donmino.

Oddly, Rob Liefeld tweeted that Domino's first appearance was New Mutants #98. Wikipedia says #11. Does Rob know that copycat was playing Domino in NM 98? Was that -script rewritten? How does someone who has never been seen before get impersonated first? Good point! Retcon, not the first time it's been done. Here is what CGC says... Imo. Domino's first appearance was NM98. It was the first time anyone became aware there was a character named Domino. Even if it was an imposter... that imposter imposted someone whose exsistence was not known (and therefore could not be 'copied') until NM98.

Very nice, and good story. Rather that shift your focus, I suggest you try to upgrade some of them. I know it will be hard.... but that is exactly why you should do it, right

Isn't that what you, jay, and BJ tried to do...? I think we all had a hand in making a discussion worth 5 pages on a good day, into a 120 page discussion.

You, too, are attempting to make hay. Don't you folks have anything better you can use to do so? That's the absolute worst thing you can come up with...? :shrug: "Out of line"...? "Hey, Jay...are those books in your sigline yours?" Notify the mods, RMA's on the loose. PS: A note to Alexander...a sigline is not "personal", by virtue of its existence. Asking about it, therefore, is not "getting personal." I didn't think that much of it... let's make that clear first of all. Classic double speak. I didn't think much of it, here, as I bring it up again for the 50th time. Attack: Definition To set upon with violent force. To criticize strongly or in a hostile manner. To start work on with purpose and vigor. The act or an instance of attacking; an assault. An expression of strong criticism; hostile comment. Offensive play, especially in lacrosse. When you get asked for your I.D. when using your credit card at the store, is that a personal attack? Great story bro. It sound like a tree falling in a forest when no one is theres. Long Distance International Sarcasm. How boorish. Wow. Way to try to create something from nothing.

You, too, are attempting to make hay. Don't you folks have anything better you can use to do so? That's the absolute worst thing you can come up with...? :shrug: "Out of line"...? "Hey, Jay...are those books in your sigline yours?" Notify the mods, RMA's on the loose. PS: A note to Alexander...a sigline is not "personal", by virtue of its existence. Asking about it, therefore, is not "getting personal." I didn't think that much of it... let's make that clear first of all. But at the time I saw it as a way to attack in a personal way... Imagine you are hearing two people discussing something in traffic about a red light... and suddenly one of them says.. "btw... is that even your bike?" How does that sounds. But - it, of course, is not clear what you meant so do disregard my comments if you, for whatever reason, just suddenly got interested in his sig line.

I noted the little dig at Jay's sig line. RMA has generally tried to not get personal, but that one was out of line imo. Just my opinion.

It was your post quoted above, bother. Although, ironically, it does not actually affect the analysis or conclusions in the least about the book's lackluster performance over the last ten years. *sorry* -J. Actually that part is true I made the error first then caught it. Despite that it would most certainly effect the performance and analysis. Define lackluster performance? It wouldn't, because as I said the outlier sale of the blue label 9.0 cerebus 1 is the only bright spot that you have been hanging your hat on the entire time. The 8.0 and 8.5 sales this year kill you, the book does not triple in value from an 8.5-9.0, there has been no 9.2 sale recorded in years, and in its highest grade (9.4), there has been price deflation. This is not a book where there is any evidence that a blue label would command a premium over an SS file copy. That is merely speculation on your part. SS copies routinely sell for more than blue (right or wrong), take for example the Hulk 181 9.2 SS copy going for $3700 in march. Lackluster performance means a book that has seen either stagnant and/or declining sales figures over a ten year period from its top grade down, with waning collector interest, in a book that was already niche to begin with. Granted you may still have some old school collectors who want one of the handful of copies of it available in its top one or two grades, but the book obviously has its best days behind it, and barring some mainstream media push caused by a cartoon or something, that is unlikely change. And while I don't necessarily disagree with Overstreet's value of it placed at $2100, I do vehemently disagree with the value placed on an IH 181 of $2,000, because the book cannot be had for that price in a 9.2. Overstreet got it wrong, hence the original point of this thread. -J. I've already addressed your claims regarding the 9.0 being the only bright spot numerous times. Please do not keep stating this. The 9.4 sale is not a price drop, its a price raise from the 2010 sale. Why are we to only count the high sale of 2004, and why not address the 2009, and 2010 sales for 7.7K And its a blue not a yellow. A 2014 sale is a more current sale which better establishes its current value. So even if its a price drop from 2004, the point is moot regarding current values. I've already addressed your circular statement regarding the 8.5 sales as well. Third time posting this, I'll just cut and paste. "But how could the recent 8.5 price drag the price down if the 8.5 went up from last year when the 8.5 sold for $820 and the 9.0 sold for $2500 within a two month time period? Can we agree this statement is false where you claim: "Going to have to respectfully disagree with you on that. I would argue that the 8.5 sale of cerebus 1 that just sold for $850 a few weeks ago drags down the current value of that 9.0 to more in the $1500 range. " Also if we add the Comiclink sale, then there was also a $1050 sale this year. Does that not count, even after the sale is no longer on the site? I have already addressed the blue label staements as well. There are fewer HG Blue labels so its not unheard of to have Blues go for more than Yellow when this happens. In this case the Blues have seemed outperformed the Yellows. The last Yellow sale was 2012 9.0 at $1434. The following year it was $2500 in Blue and in 2005 it was $1750. Now I can say these are the reasons the book has been going up. But there seems to be more than one sale that seems to suggest that the blue label may have something to do with this. Lackluster according to you? But what if the book has gone down then up in between your arbitrary timeline of 10 years, then what? At what point does it not become lackluster? I make no claims of Overstreet values and how he comes to his conclusions. False claim regarding "addressed all of your claims ad nauseum". Never made any claims of hot, But I did state you were incorrect regarding a drop in value. So indeed your claims regarding only a 9.0 sale to support claims was incorrect. I have already shown why pending is meaningless on Comiclink, and by the way, it is no longer pending. Similar grades is a moot point. Low ball offers, moot. Glad I don't need to quote myself another time (thumbs u That's fine. You can disagree here. Clearly since there are limited sales. But its wrong everytime you state that only the 9.0 sale helps. The 9.4 at 9K in addition of a recent 9.0 sales helps determine the price of a high grade copy. If I only had the recent 9.0, then I would have a harder time making claims regarding current values. A) You don't know if that sale on comic link ever closed or consummated either way. Further, (and regardless) it would not be a publicly available sale and will never be reported by GPA, even if it happened. And oh yeah, current offers on the same book in grade do kinda matter, as they are suggestive and representative of market trends and where the book is actually headed, don't-cha think? B) The 9.0 is obviously an outlier since the book never showed an annual appreciation of more than about 2.5% the ten years prior in that grade. Take out that one outlier sale and the book is a complete dud for the last decade in pretty much all grades, top down. C) I have never actually disputed Overstreet's value of 2100 in a 9.2. That is probably correct and what one would go for now. But a Hulk 181 in the same grade goes for more. So overstreet got that part wrong. D) You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I for one certainly would not suggest investing your money into a short box of cerebus 1's anytime soon. As there seems to be very few interested buyers for the inordinately large amount of copies that are already available on the market. (thumbs u -J. A. Moving the goal posts. Your claim earlier "the sale is consummated when it no longer appears as "pending" on the site and the listing poofs." But we also know this is incorrect as well as sales are finished far before. Why are we now to add yet another extra scrutiny on this sale? So only GPA sales now? Do I have to call Comiclink now? Ever sell a book before? JDog, meet Comiclink. http://www.comiclink.com/ You'll find low ball offers are common. But since you begged the question the current offer is $850. B. But if we look at the 9.4 sale then it seems to fall in line nicely. C. Don't care what Overstreet claims. D. Lots of rare books are on the MKT. "Moving the goal posts"? Come on. I have always referred to "publicly available sales data". And again, even if the 8.5 sale happened, it would be bookended by TWO other sales in 8.5 that are $850 (assuming the next one ever actually happens as well), highlighting what I have been saying once again...that the book has been either stagnant or declining in value for the better part of a decade. *On a side note....It sure is coincidental how that sale on comic link suddenly vanished after my original points, and how you seem to have such an intimate knowledge of the inner working of the goings on with the copies of cerebus 1 on there. Perhaps you're the one who has some of his copies on the market right now. Along with the other guy on the boards who couldn't even unload his early back issues for more than 25% of OPG. And I never referred to the 9.4 sale as an outlier, only the 9.0 sale. If a book isn't even keeping up with inflation for nearly a 10 year period in grade, and then suddenly gets a random increase in price, in just that one single book, in that one single grade, that would be considered an "outlier". The 9.4 sale is actually 15% below the peak price paid for the grade ten years ago, and if you look at all the sales in between, the needle hasn't moved in that grade since GPA started keeping records. Like I said, your one high outlier 9.0 sale does not save your book, and it obviously has not reversed the downward/sluggish price trends or revived demand/collector interest, as subsequent sales have demonstrated. So let's recap all the facts that the pro-cerebus 1 folks have either forgotten or ignored: 1) The original point of the thread: To dispute/mock Overstreet for ranking the book above Hulk 181 in like grade; 2) The highest price ever paid for a Cerebus 1, 9.2 SS is $2132 (approximately the value assigned to it in OPG), and I have gone on the record as saying I concur with this value estimation; 3) The highest price paid for a Hulk 181 9.2 is $3200....$1200 more than OPG, and I have gone on the record calling that demonstrably low; 4) The highest price paid for a Hulk 181 9.2 SS is $3700.....also a whole lot more than OPG (and only cited here for the purposes of comparing the books in value SS to SS); 5) Hulk 181's 9.2, 90 day average ($2507) is more than anything paid for a Cerebus 1 9.2 SS, and higher than OPG; 6) Hulk 181's 9.2, 12 month average ($2310) is more than anything paid for a Cerebus 1 9.2 SS, and higher than OPG; 7) Hulk 181's 9.2, 21 last year average ($2054) is only about $80 less than the highest price ever publicly realized for a Cerebus 1, 9.2, and still higher than OPG; This is what makes OPG so very, very wrong with its list. Somehow, someway, the cerebus 1 fans have turned this into a relentless defense and justification for the book's lone positive sale in the last ten years. The have tried to use that one, lone sale to extrapolate a fantastically high, purely hypothetical "what if" price for a 9.2, even as the grade in the other direction (8.5) in fact drags it down, and there has been a 15% net drop in value in its highest grade over the same 10 year period. Yet they have then turned around and stated that the "one" recent 9.2 Hulk 181 sale of $3200 should be ignored, because.....well because I guess it's just a little "too high" for them, and essentially steamrolls anything ever paid for a Cerebus 1 and is inconvenient to their position..... while failing to acknowledge that even the 90 day and 12 month averages on the book are still about 15-20% higher than anything a cerebus 1 has sold for in a 9.2, even at its peak when people cared more about it. There is clearly some denial going on here when it comes to this book. I am not trying to change anyone's minds here, but seriously, take off the rose coloured glasses already, if OPG has ever gotten something wrong (and he has), this would certainly qualify as a prime example. And PS ....I only post in this thread when someone mis-states, perverts my position, or deliberately cites me out of context. I present my arguments with data and context, unlike most have been posting nothing more on here than "you're wrong", or "that is incorrect", and then disappearing back into cyberspace. -J. The above is a key post in this thread. I will now go check the facts on GPA myself.. Average of last 10 copies sold (going back to max 2012). This are the facts: In 9.0: H181ss (3,000) > Cerebus1 (2,500) > H181 (2,048) > Cerebus ss (1,434) 9.2 H181ss (3,050) > H181 (2,750) > Cerebus ss (2,136) > Cerebus 1 9.4 Cerebus1 (9,000) > Cerebus ss (7,768) > H181ss (4,110) > H181 (3,150) Value of the best copy in exsistence: H181ss (21,250) > H181 (10,600) > Cerebus1 (9,000) > Cerebus ss (7,768) In addition to the averages, looking at the highest copy in each grade sold, H181 has sold for higher in all grades except 9.4. 9,.4 is the highest Cerebus grade so it (just like all issues) gets a highest grade bonus. Looking at the trends there is an overweights of downward trends in Cerebus (as recorded by GPA) of net 4 red downward indicators across all grades. For H181 there is an extreme overweight of upwards trends across all grades of net 55 greens upward arrows. ________ So what can we learn from this? We can see that H181 is trending strongly upwards while Cerebus is trending downwards across grades. We can also see that H181 is the highest valued issue in all grades except for 9.4. 9.4 however is a special case that does not make much sense to compare because as we all know there is a significant bonus for being "highest grade on record", and the Cerebus 9.4 gets that bonus while H181 does not get that. When comparing highest grade with highest grade in exsistence, however, collectors still value H181 higher. So it would seem that there are most arguments for H181 being the more valuable of the two. However, because cerebus 9.4 gets the bonus, and because one Cerebus sold in 9.0 for 2,500 (and while this seems out of line with the Cerebus market since there are no other sales this is the average we have to use) - because of these two issues, Cerebus has at least a few arguments that can be used. And it also seems that some people think prices are what they were 3 or 5 years back. This will also help Cerebus because H181 has seen a stronger growth than Cerebus. My concusion is that H181 is the more valuable book overall. There is no possible argument in any grade except 9.0 and 9.4. The argument for Cerebus in 9.0 is a very weak one and only based on one book whick seems out of line with the rest of the Cerebus market. The argument in 9.4 is stronger. The value of Cerebus in 9.4 is actually higher than for H181. There are reasons and the comparison might not be fair, but nevertheless the price is higher in that particular grade. Finally, if OS uses 9.2 only then (barring a Cerebus fan making a single high purchase before the end of the year just to rattle the cage) H181 certainly has a clear upper hand to get ranked above Cerebus 1 it seems.