AlexanderM

The real issue is that YOU feel as if I "feel superior in terms of logical thinking." As a result, you are offended when I point out that a position isn't rational or logical. I, however, think nothing of the sort. You see no reason why I should think so, because there is none, and, more importantly, I don't. Logic is, reason is, they are not subject to feelings and emotions. Frequently, they are at complete loggerheads with feelings and emotions. For example...it is not logical or reasonable to call people here "hardcore Cerebus fans", simply because they defend the fact that Cerebus #1 in 9.2 and above is worth more money than Hulk #181. This is a reaction borne out of emotion, not reason, because no evidence exists which demonstrates otherwise, and much evidence to the contrary exists. To those making such a claim, it is, of course, completely logical to do so, because that's how they feel about Hulk #181, so they project that motive onto those they are debating, despite the lack of evidence, even direct testimony to the contrary. And to people like that, someone pointing out that such responses are borne of emotion, rather than reason, even though everyone reading this can see the evidence before their own eyes, is offensive...and thus, the claim that "oh, you just think you're so superior!" It's the vicious cycle that emotionalism inflicts on any debate. It doesn't matter what any of us feels. If one disagrees, one should lay out why, logically, rationally, and without resorting to personal statements about the other people in the discussion, as you have done here. Making personal statements about others is sure proof that such a person is resorting to emotion, rather than reason...precisely what you have done here. And you wonder why your statements are questioned on their logical merit...? Let me assure you, no offense, that I feel Jay's posts have generally been more logical than yours. And I obviously don't think you are more logical than me. You keep mentioning 'logical' I don't know how many times in this thread...so I'm guessing you think you are more logical, I certainly don't. PS. However, just so you don't think I am being unreasonable, I do think you can be quite satisfied with your level of intelligence and logical ability.

Wow... Don't take everything too seriously on here

Right. A computer program that collects data from a tiny FRACTION of the market sales of a particular brand of comic that makes up a TINY fraction of comic sales (slabs) vs a book that collects data from MULTIPLE sources of Raw Sales (which make up the VAST majority of comic sales) and has been doing so for 44 years....ok. That's why you should care. Oh god, the irony. Yes, the OSPG isn't perfect. But you're helping prove WHY GPA isn't perfect either. Trying to show a pricing TREND, using two points of sales data in three years is notoriously imprecise. What are you talking about. This isn't about you. The majority of all comic book dealers use OSPG daily to assist in pricing comics. DAILY. Regardless of what you or I THINK, it's STILL used DAILY by the vast majority of comic book dealers. And GPA isn't precise either. Just because it says a book sold for 'x' amount, it doesn't mean it's going to sell for 'x' amount next time. It's a guide... a tool to be used to accumulate information. The MORE information that it has, the more accurately you can determine how you want to use that information. Sort of like... OSPG! It's a GUIDE... a tool that accumulates information. But it accumulates information from a much LARGER pool than GPA does. Some may be a bit offended if someone dares say that OPG is not as precise as GPA... because Overstreet has relations with many dealers and for nostalgic reasons etc. But I think the truth should still be ok? Let's try a simple question. Which is more precise - GPA or OPG? All I'm saying is that I find GPA more precise. What do you think?

There is a slight premium for the run of the mill pedigrees. There's a couple auctions Ive been watching where they seem to command 10-25%. The FP 1 Twin Cities 9.8 commanded a premium to the 9.8 that sold on connect. $1675 vs $1400 roughly. The Dr Strange 172 BG pedigree in the comiclink summer feature has already set the all time high for the book with 7 days left in the auction. They do add some value. How much is up for debate. In these two cases the pedigree copy is also the highest graded, which probably makes it the most desirable. Not all of them add value. It exists for some, but for all intents and purposes, it's been replaced by the slab, outside of the "famous" Peds. You are an intelligent man. If the pedigree commands a premium in these two examples, it certainly doesn't detract from the marketability of a scarce, yet heralded, Bronze Age book that was auctioned as a second highest graded copy. That $879 sale of the 100 Page #5 is an embarrassment. You are about to witness several books surpass the Danielle Steele novel, as IM 55 very clearly already has. Once again, there is no defense here. There is enough data to show this is an easy easy easy easy call yet you continue to defend the #5. Let it go, man. If you want romance study French, drink wine, watch Eat Pray Love and read poetry. A better case could be made for the ASM 129, which surprisingly is showing some recent strength due to the first appearance of the Jackal. Take it up with Overstreet. No need for flattery. You cannot make an argument based on 4 sales in 10 years, no matter how you wish to try. Take care. 2 sales in 3 years. Pedigree copies. I can make a pretty good argument. If you don't want to hear it then you should not have said it belongs on the list. This book is the Four Color #9 of the Bronze Age There are nationwide traveling comic book dealers, right here on this board, that have sold more copies of that book raw than GPA will ever have to show. Why don't you ask them what they've seen? If I want to know what the REAL value of a book is, I would rather ask someone who actually sells the books for a living and has seen multiple copies of it over the years, than rely solely on something like GPA, that takes a SMALL percentage of sales (specific auctions), from a SMALL percentage of type books (3rd party graded). Okay I think we get it now...The "good" sales are the ones that are only happening privately. You have that wrong. The VAST MAJORITY of the sales are the ones that are happening privately. And who is "we"? You have more than one person posting with you? If not, you should probably let everyone else speak for themselves, like they have been. Oh, they count. They count about as much as the small percentage of the market that they actually are. Like individual raindrops in a spring shower. That is a bit like saying "the western medical scientists in their surveys and experiments only use as subjects a tiny fraction of the people in the world. I think it's better to rely on some of the most respected medicine men in our great tribes. Their joint experiences are vast". Surely we don't really think anecdotes and stories from 'respected medicine men..ups. . dealers) are a better proof of sales prices? It's nothing like saying that. Your analogy doesn't work at all. It is a completely illogical comparison. I have asked this question multiple times, but it doesn't seem to be making a difference: where do you think the OPG got its prices prior to CGC and GPA...? The question is why should we care where the information comes from? OPG is notoriously imprecise. It is an antiquated approach (I must say I like OPG for the articles and nostalgia..but have no illusions that the prices are at all precise) to pricing comics. Btw. You keep repeating the words logical and illogical as if you feel superior in terms of logical thinking. I cannot see any reason why you should think so? Is it that a few people clap when you say stuff that is in their best interest that made you think that? Or maybe you have any more objective credentials? A PhD? Member of Mensa?

There is a slight premium for the run of the mill pedigrees. There's a couple auctions Ive been watching where they seem to command 10-25%. The FP 1 Twin Cities 9.8 commanded a premium to the 9.8 that sold on connect. $1675 vs $1400 roughly. The Dr Strange 172 BG pedigree in the comiclink summer feature has already set the all time high for the book with 7 days left in the auction. They do add some value. How much is up for debate. In these two cases the pedigree copy is also the highest graded, which probably makes it the most desirable. Not all of them add value. It exists for some, but for all intents and purposes, it's been replaced by the slab, outside of the "famous" Peds. You are an intelligent man. If the pedigree commands a premium in these two examples, it certainly doesn't detract from the marketability of a scarce, yet heralded, Bronze Age book that was auctioned as a second highest graded copy. That $879 sale of the 100 Page #5 is an embarrassment. You are about to witness several books surpass the Danielle Steele novel, as IM 55 very clearly already has. Once again, there is no defense here. There is enough data to show this is an easy easy easy easy call yet you continue to defend the #5. Let it go, man. If you want romance study French, drink wine, watch Eat Pray Love and read poetry. A better case could be made for the ASM 129, which surprisingly is showing some recent strength due to the first appearance of the Jackal. Take it up with Overstreet. No need for flattery. You cannot make an argument based on 4 sales in 10 years, no matter how you wish to try. Take care. 2 sales in 3 years. Pedigree copies. I can make a pretty good argument. If you don't want to hear it then you should not have said it belongs on the list. This book is the Four Color #9 of the Bronze Age There are nationwide traveling comic book dealers, right here on this board, that have sold more copies of that book raw than GPA will ever have to show. Why don't you ask them what they've seen? If I want to know what the REAL value of a book is, I would rather ask someone who actually sells the books for a living and has seen multiple copies of it over the years, than rely solely on something like GPA, that takes a SMALL percentage of sales (specific auctions), from a SMALL percentage of type books (3rd party graded). Okay I think we get it now...The "good" sales are the ones that are only happening privately. You have that wrong. The VAST MAJORITY of the sales are the ones that are happening privately. And who is "we"? You have more than one person posting with you? If not, you should probably let everyone else speak for themselves, like they have been. Oh, they count. They count about as much as the small percentage of the market that they actually are. Like individual raindrops in a spring shower. That is a bit like saying "the western medical scientists in their surveys and experiments only use as subjects a tiny fraction of the people in the world. I think it's better to rely on some of the most respected medicine men in our great tribes. Their joint experiences are vast". Surely we don't really think anecdotes and stories from 'respected medicine men..ups. . dealers) are a better proof of sales prices?

A "price variant" of a regular issue cannot be the "king" of the BA. Maybe the star wars 1 issue ( a comic book adapted from a movie) can be considered the "King of price variants", sure. But not all of the BA. That title is deservedly and indisputably hulk 181- the book that trades on a daily basis, and is one of the primary engines (if not THE primary engine) of the BA market. Just because something is more "expensive" the few times it sells in a year does not automatically make it the "king". It just makes it more expensive. Whether or not there is any rational basis why it actually is, is a whole other discussion. -J. This, I think, is indisputable even for hardcore Starwars or Cerebus fans. Hulk181 is the first appearance of the most popular character to come out of the Bronze age. I don't anyone is disputing that. As such Hulk181 is obviously the king of the BA. Whether there exists an issue of a more of less obscure title or variant which can be priced higher because the small interest is outdone by an even smaller print run... that is possible. But that certainly does not make that issue king of anything. +1

A "price variant" of a regular issue cannot be the "king" of the BA. Maybe the star wars 1 issue ( a comic book adapted from a movie) can be considered the "King of price variants", sure. But not all of the BA. That title is deservedly and indisputably hulk 181- the book that trades on a daily basis, and is one of the primary engines (if not THE primary engine) of the BA market. Just because something is more "expensive" the few times it sells in a year does not automatically make it the "king". It just makes it more expensive. Whether or not there is any rational basis why it actually is, is a whole other discussion. -J. This, I think, is indisputable even for hardcore Starwars or Cerebus fans. Hulk181 is the first appearance of the most popular character to come out of the Bronze age. I don't anyone is disputing that. As such Hulk181 is obviously the king of the BA. Whether there exists an issue of a more of less obscure title or variant which can be priced higher because the small interest is outdone by an even smaller print run... that is possible. But that certainly does not make that issue king of anything.

I think, more than anything, that's precisely the thing which people cannot agree upon. Which is a ridiculous argument, because it's personal preference, and there is no arguing against personal preference. For the record, since it's been brought up by others, I like BOTH characters equally well...but while I have owned 3-4 Hulk #181s, they always end up for sale. My Cerebus #1s? I've owned them for closing on 10 years. I know which book is harder to get. That's the real problem in this entire thread: people wanting to convince everyone else that Wolverine is a cooler character, which no one has ever disputed. But these people are personally offended that Cerebus #1 is more valuable than Hulk #181 in 9.2 and above, which is irrational. Many more people care about and want IH181.. it is far the more liquid asset.

I sold it to carbonaro so it was he who had it on display. And at sdcc too...and heroes con. Since these two showed up at the same time... could the 9.2 be his too?

Very nice Bomber bob.

http://www.ign.com/top/comic-book-heroes#

Ok, found them.

I cannot really find them in there.. could you list a few of the key ones, so I know what to look for without looking through everything?

No such website now.

Jay should be all over that seeming shilling that goes on with Cerebus. And it is a book that would be very prone to shilling given the number of copies.

Very nice. And considering that maybe less than 10% of BB28s have OW or better PQ that makes it even sweeter

THE BOTTOM LINE So the bottom line of this thread is (for anyone not bothered to read the whole thing). Broad agreement that : 1. IH181 is a vastly more important book than Cerebus. They are really leagues apart. 2. IH181 is, despite being available in much larger numbers, more valuable than Cerebus at most grades. Still no agreement on these issues: 1. Whether Cerebus is higher priced in only 1 or a few grades in the 9s? 2. Which book could be said to generally be the highest priced (most valuable) book. 3. Whether Cerebus prices are in decline.

Alexander, let's lay off the hyperbole, ok? It doesn't advance your position. No one "misunderstood" anything. The problem Jaydog has is that he is loose, like you, with the language. I can forgive you, as it seems like you are European, and English may not be your first language (I am perfectly happy to be corrected on this), but Jaydog has no such excuse. When someone says a book has "a boatload of chances at a 9.9", it shows that they don't really understand what makes 9.9 and 10 such freaks. Is it true generally that a higher print run gives a book more chances of obtaining a 9.9? Obviously. However..,print run alone is not the only determining factor on whether a particular issue has an actual chance of obtaining a 9.9 or 10. There are books with literally MILLIONS of copies printed, that will never, ever get a 9.9 or 10, because of the nature of the books themselves, and the 9.9 and 10 grades. Those books, which had far, far, FAR more copies printed than Hulk #181, have ZERO chance, much less a "boatload", of ever obtaining a 9.9 or 10 (X-Force #1, for example), under the current system at CGC. There are entire print runs worth of books that will never, and COULD never, obtain a 9.9 or 10, right off the presses. Those books had ZERO chance, ever, regardless of the size of their print runs. Conversely, there are books with 1,000, 2,000, 5,000 copy print runs that have multiple 9.9s and/or 10s, simply because of the way they were manufactured. Far, far lower print run...but an actual "boatload" more chance at 9.9s and 10s. Because print run alone isn't the determining factor. Got any other examples of my many mistakes...? Which school yard tactics would those be? The most logical answer is that Cerebus #1 is more valuable in grades 9.2 and above, because we have sales data to prove it. Why do you dispute that? It's cut and dried. It couldn't be clearer. Whatever sells for more is worth more. Why do you gents keep disputing this? There have been more What Ifs in this thread than the entire output of Marvel since 1977. What Ifs don't count. What if Hulk #181 was made of gold? What if Cerebus #1 was written by Thomas Jefferson? What if the Titanic hadn't sunk in 1912, but carried on as a passenger ship until 1977, when it happened to be carrying the entire print run of Cerebus, and it smashed into a giant monster named Mothra over the Sea of Japan and sunk? You have no idea what Cerebus #1 would be worth if it had the same number of copies extant as Hulk #181..claiming it would be worth the same as Thor #158 is complete and utter speculation, without foundation. If you read what I said, you would know that I do not insist H181 is more valuable. But I think it is wrong to claim that Cerebus is more valuable than H181. It may be possible to make an argument that it is more worth at a few grades, while H181 is more valuable at other grades. Uh... THAT'S WHAT WE HAVE BEEN SAYING. It's jaydog who disagrees. NO ONE HAS SAID THAT. NO ONE HAS SAID THAT. NO ONE HAS SAID THAT. JIMMINY FREAKING CHRISTMAS. How many times does it have to be repeated? NO ONE HAS SAID THAT. jaydog is ARGUEING it, but NO ONE IS SAYING IT. No. Here's your real world proof, that you even POINTED OUT that I've repeated 3 times prior: Any national dealer on this board, if given a chance, would buy a Cerebus #1 CGC 9.4 over a Hulk #181 CGC 9.4 - if offered either one or the other - for $500. That's REAL WORLD PROOF. Doesn't matter what Aliens or Snails or BMW or Toyotas THINK.... Any national dealer on this board, if given a chance, would buy a Cerebus #1 CGC 9.4 over a Hulk #181 CGC 9.4 - if offered either one or the other - for $500. WHY? Because. It. Is. MORE. Valuable. Debate THEORY all you want. THERE... is.... PROOF. That is NOT what is being debated. Who the hell knows? What if I could shoot Cerebus #1's out of my butt? Who cares? That's NOT what is being debated or discussed. Who knows. I could care less. I want to know... what I should buy and what I shouldn't buy based upon REAL WORLD FACTS. Not THEORY or Emotion.... What actually sells... well... in this instance we KNOW. ASK a national dealer. Anyone who has been selling for any amount of time has probably had one and sold it for MORE than guide. They'll TELL you... it's a book that commands a premium, and in high grade, DEMANDS a premium. It's not JUST OSPG, it's other REAL WORLD sales that are going on.... Hope you're enjoying the boards, it's not always this crazy,,, I am, thanks We more or less agree... except that you don't want to answer what you would do if someone came to you with 10.000 copies of Cerebus 1 and H181. You could answer that. Just like you could answer if I asked you what you would do if someone came with an action comics 1 9.8 and offered it for $10.000. It hasn't happened, but you know very well what you would do. You obviously don't want to answer... because the logical answer is not the one you would want

Alexander, let's lay off the hyperbole, ok? It doesn't advance your position. No one "misunderstood" anything. The problem Jaydog has is that he is loose, like you, with the language. I can forgive you, as it seems like you are European, and English may not be your first language (I am perfectly happy to be corrected on this), but Jaydog has no such excuse. When someone says a book has "a boatload of chances at a 9.9", it shows that they don't really understand what makes 9.9 and 10 such freaks. Is it true generally that a higher print run gives a book more chances of obtaining a 9.9? Obviously. However..,print run alone is not the only determining factor on whether a particular issue has an actual chance of obtaining a 9.9 or 10. There are books with literally MILLIONS of copies printed, that will never, ever get a 9.9 or 10, because of the nature of the books themselves, and the 9.9 and 10 grades. Those books, which had far, far, FAR more copies printed than Hulk #181, have ZERO chance, much less a "boatload", of ever obtaining a 9.9 or 10 (X-Force #1, for example), under the current system at CGC. There are entire print runs worth of books that will never, and COULD never, obtain a 9.9 or 10, right off the presses. Those books had ZERO chance, ever, regardless of the size of their print runs. Conversely, there are books with 1,000, 2,000, 5,000 copy print runs that have multiple 9.9s and/or 10s, simply because of the way they were manufactured. Far, far lower print run...but an actual "boatload" more chance at 9.9s and 10s. Because print run alone isn't the determining factor. Got any other examples of my many mistakes...? Which school yard tactics would those be? The most logical answer is that Cerebus #1 is more valuable in grades 9.2 and above, because we have sales data to prove it. Why do you dispute that? It's cut and dried. It couldn't be clearer. Whatever sells for more is worth more. Why do you gents keep disputing this? There have been more What Ifs in this thread than the entire output of Marvel since 1977. What Ifs don't count. What if Hulk #181 was made of gold? What if Cerebus #1 was written by Thomas Jefferson? What if the Titanic hadn't sunk in 1912, but carried on as a passenger ship until 1977, when it happened to be carrying the entire print run of Cerebus, and it smashed into a giant monster named Mothra over the Sea of Japan and sunk? You have no idea what Cerebus #1 would be worth if it had the same number of copies extant as Hulk #181..claiming it would be worth the same as Thor #158 is complete and utter speculation, without foundation. If you read what I said, I did read what you said. Unlike some, I don't dishonor those I speak with by not even bothering to read what they write. That's rude. I simply disagree with you. The question is not, and has never been, which is more valuable in all grades. The question has always been "which is more valuable according to Overstreet in the highest grade OPG reports?", which morphed into which one is more valuable in the highest grades. There is no "perhaps" about it. It is documented as such. No, there's not. There was a sale, 5 months ago, of the book for $9,000. No Hulk #181 has sold in 9.4 U for even HALF that, and even the SS copies only come to a bit over $4,000. If the queen of England was your mother, would you be able to buy all the Hulk #181s you wanted? If, if, if, if. Huh. How did I figure that out...? I must have used science. The way you chop up logical arguments serve one purpose... to take things out of context to make it seem like you are right. This to me seems like primary school debate team... but it is not impressive. I am not sure how many in here can or bother to see through those debating tactics you use, but I would recommend you don't argue in that way because I'm sure I'm not the only one who can see through that. You must have used science? I can't be bothered right now...I'm getting tired... it is 3.07am here now.... I'm in the worst hotel I have been in for the past 5 years.. and I should be sleeping. Which I will do now.

Me personally? The Cerebus 1. But that has nothing to do with this discussion. I would take a 35 cent Scooby Doo #1 over either of them, and I demand to see it crack the OSPG Top Ten immediately. So would I So, you're ok with never having Hulk 181 in your collection? A variant is more significant to you? I can get a Hulk 181 every day of the week. I'd take the Scooby even in vastly lower grade. Lets take an average BMW... and an average Toyota. Which one is more valuable? The BMW. Now, let's say someone found 10.000 more of each (or the companies decided to make 10.000 more of each..same thing) then .... which oen is now the more valuable? Obviously still the BMW... it is just a better and more valuable car.. right? ..... Think like a businessman....which one...? You're now comparing cars to comic books....? What if the moon was made of gold? Would you arrange a trip there to mine some? Forget my comparison then. Just answer this: Let's say someone found 10.000 H181s and 10.000 Cerebus 1s...(all in 9.4 grade) As a dealer.... which load would you buy? The 10.000 IH181s.. or the 10.000 Cerebus 1s? Think like a businessman....which one...?

Me personally? The Cerebus 1. But that has nothing to do with this discussion. I would take a 35 cent Scooby Doo #1 over either of them, and I demand to see it crack the OSPG Top Ten immediately. So would I So, you're ok with never having Hulk 181 in your collection? A variant is more significant to you? I can get a Hulk 181 every day of the week. I'd take the Scooby even in vastly lower grade. Lets take an average BMW... and an average Toyota. Which one is more valuable? The BMW. Now, let's say someone found 10.000 more of each (or the companies decided to make 10.000 more of each..same thing) then .... which oen is now the more valuable? Obviously still the BMW... it is just a better and more valuable car.. right? Now... Let's say someone found 10.000 H181s and 10.000 Cerebus 1s...(all in 9.4 grade) As a dealer.... which load would you buy? The 10.000 IH181s.. or the 10.000 Cerebus 1s? Think like a businessman....which one...? Alex he was kidding:) Ok... Fixed btw...

Lets take an average BMW... and an average Toyota. Which one is more valuable? The BMW. Now, let's say someone found 10.000 more of each (or the companies decided to make 10.000 more of each..same thing) then .... which oen is now the more valuable? Obviously still the BMW... it is just a better and more valuable car.. right? Now... Let's say someone found 10.000 H181s and 10.000 Cerebus 1s...(all in 9.4 grade) As a dealer.... which load would you buy? The 10.000 IH181s.. or the 10.000 Cerebus 1s? Think like a businessman....which one...?

Alexander, let's lay off the hyperbole, ok? It doesn't advance your position. No one "misunderstood" anything. The problem Jaydog has is that he is loose, like you, with the language. I can forgive you, as it seems like you are European, and English may not be your first language (I am perfectly happy to be corrected on this), but Jaydog has no such excuse. When someone says a book has "a boatload of chances at a 9.9", it shows that they don't really understand what makes 9.9 and 10 such freaks. Is it true generally that a higher print run gives a book more chances of obtaining a 9.9? Obviously. However..,print run alone is not the only determining factor on whether a particular issue has an actual chance of obtaining a 9.9 or 10. There are books with literally MILLIONS of copies printed, that will never, ever get a 9.9 or 10, because of the nature of the books themselves, and the 9.9 and 10 grades. Those books, which had far, far, FAR more copies printed than Hulk #181, have ZERO chance, much less a "boatload", of ever obtaining a 9.9 or 10 (X-Force #1, for example), under the current system at CGC. There are entire print runs worth of books that will never, and COULD never, obtain a 9.9 or 10, right off the presses. Those books had ZERO chance, ever, regardless of the size of their print runs. Conversely, there are books with 1,000, 2,000, 5,000 copy print runs that have multiple 9.9s and/or 10s, simply because of the way they were manufactured. Far, far lower print run...but an actual "boatload" more chance at 9.9s and 10s. Because print run alone isn't the determining factor. Got any other examples of my many mistakes...? Which school yard tactics would those be? The most logical answer is that Cerebus #1 is more valuable in grades 9.2 and above, because we have sales data to prove it. Why do you dispute that? It's cut and dried. It couldn't be clearer. Whatever sells for more is worth more. Why do you gents keep disputing this? There have been more What Ifs in this thread than the entire output of Marvel since 1977. What Ifs don't count. What if Hulk #181 was made of gold? What if Cerebus #1 was written by Thomas Jefferson? What if the Titanic hadn't sunk in 1912, but carried on as a passenger ship until 1977, when it happened to be carrying the entire print run of Cerebus, and it smashed into a giant monster named Mothra over the Sea of Japan and sunk? You have no idea what Cerebus #1 would be worth if it had the same number of copies extant as Hulk #181..claiming it would be worth the same as Thor #158 is complete and utter speculation, without foundation. If you read what I said, you would know that I do not insist H181 is more valuable. But I think it is wrong to claim that Cerebus is more valuable than H181. It may be possible to make an argument that it is more worth at a few grades, while H181 is more valuable at other grades. That still does not make it right to claim that Cerebus is more valuable as an overarching statement. Is Cerebus worth more at 9.4? Perhaps. There is probably too little data to really know. If someone found a trailer with 10.000 copies of each comic.... in grade 9.4. Would dealers then really prefer to buy the Cerebus ones?..... really? I mean... if it in itself is more valuable.... surely they would... but I doubt they actually would. Now we know of few copies.. this gives us a lack of data, and if the next 9.4 sells for half the price... that is basically the price (more or less) because there are not enough sales to really know what the FMV is. So there is a possibility it might be, or it might not be. From the insufficient data we have right this minute - it might be in 9.4. And yes, I'm European.. English is not my first language.

You have said that 3 times now. I'm not sure it can be disputed nor needs to be disputed. What I do know is that H181 is a vastly more important book (everyone seems to agree on this now), and that Jay has argued in the most logical manner of the two sides so far. Chuck, Jay argues that the comparison ought to be best for best. The 9.4 might be the best Cerebus but it is far from the best H181 therefore the comparison is not fair to make. The best H181 arguably sells for more than the best Cerebus 1. However, I am very certain H181 is more important, but I'm probably not quite as sure as Jay that it is also more valuable than Cerebus 1. I think that may be more complex than that - but it would certainly also be wrong to say the opposite... that Cerebus is more valuable than H181 ... it seems to me.

Again, you're just wrong here. It is proven, demonstrably more valuable grade-for-grade than IH 181 in 9.2, 9.4 and whatever other mythical 9.6 copies may exist. The market data say so; at least three reputable comic dealers in this thread say so; RMA (with whom I usually disagree) has delineated the myriad reasons why it is so (namely, the factual sales); and Overstreet's says so. You may want to check your facts on that... http://www.ebay.com/itm/INCREDIBLE-HULK-181-WHITE-PAGES-CGC-GRADED-9-2-NOVEMBER-1974-/400755267796?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item5d4ee018d4 No cerebus 1, 9.2 has ever come in spitting distance of this. And this sale strongly suggests that it wouldn't, if one were to come up for sale: http://www.ebay.com/itm/CEREBUS-1-CGC-8-5-2000-PRINT-RUN-SUPER-RARE-IN-THIS-CONDITION-HTF-/251567379955?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item3a929595f3 We don't need rumour and word of mouth from dealers and rampant speculation, when we have publicly available sales to cull at our fingertips. Hence the point of my prior post. -J. Jay... that is bad form.... using facts..... Yes, using a record smashing example to demonstrate what is typical... That's a fact, alright. That is not what you are doing with Cerebus? Using one or a few sales to claim the value? I know you're being snide, but I'll answer you sincerely: When one or a few sales is all the information you have, it is reasonable to draw conclusions, to extrapolate based on that information. Understand: there is a significant difference between ONE sale and A FEW sales. Substantially so. With Hulk #181, is it NOT REASONABLE to draw the most extreme example ever to "make a point", when there are literally hundreds of other "data points" that paint a different picture. We must use our reason, gentlemen. We cannot just pick whatever suits us out of the air and go with it. I know you are not scientifically trained, but believe me, this is clearly dead wrong. That's an interesting conclusion, on both parts. You know nothing about me. How, then, do you conclude I am not "scientifically trained"? That analogy is really quite bad. I mean really, quite awful. We are talking about the value of comic books, and using sales prices of those comic books to make our points. Your analogy is grossly broad to be of any value. Sorry, but in the limited scope of what we're discussing, you are incorrect. Because I am, and you are wrong.