AlexanderM

Again, you're just wrong here. It is proven, demonstrably more valuable grade-for-grade than IH 181 in 9.2, 9.4 and whatever other mythical 9.6 copies may exist. The market data say so; at least three reputable comic dealers in this thread say so; RMA (with whom I usually disagree) has delineated the myriad reasons why it is so (namely, the factual sales); and Overstreet's says so. You may want to check your facts on that... http://www.ebay.com/itm/INCREDIBLE-HULK-181-WHITE-PAGES-CGC-GRADED-9-2-NOVEMBER-1974-/400755267796?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item5d4ee018d4 No cerebus 1, 9.2 has ever come in spitting distance of this. And this sale strongly suggests that it wouldn't, if one were to come up for sale: http://www.ebay.com/itm/CEREBUS-1-CGC-8-5-2000-PRINT-RUN-SUPER-RARE-IN-THIS-CONDITION-HTF-/251567379955?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item3a929595f3 We don't need rumour and word of mouth from dealers and rampant speculation, when we have publicly available sales to cull at our fingertips. Hence the point of my prior post. -J. Jay... that is bad form.... using facts..... Yes, using a record smashing example to demonstrate what is typical... That's a fact, alright. That is not what you are doing with Cerebus? Using one or a few sales to claim the value? I know you're being snide, but I'll answer you sincerely: When one or a few sales is all the information you have, it is reasonable to draw conclusions, to extrapolate based on that information. Understand: there is a significant difference between ONE sale and A FEW sales. Substantially so. With Hulk #181, is it NOT REASONABLE to draw the most extreme example ever to "make a point", when there are literally hundreds of other "data points" that paint a different picture. We must use our reason, gentlemen. We cannot just pick whatever suits us out of the air and go with it. I know you are not scientifically trained, but believe me, this is clearly dead wrong. Imagine this... if aliens came to earth and only had time to pick up one beam of stuff quickly... and when they came back to their planet.. the first and only life form they saw was a snail.. would it then be reasonable to draw the conclusion that this is the typical life form on earth? If you want to be really debative I could have said they found the colour pink.. and saw that as typical of the colours on earth. It is clearly NOT reasonable to make conclusions on too limited information. It is understandable that there is no more information, but that still does not allow us to make conclusions.

Again, you're just wrong here. It is proven, demonstrably more valuable grade-for-grade than IH 181 in 9.2, 9.4 and whatever other mythical 9.6 copies may exist. The market data say so; at least three reputable comic dealers in this thread say so; RMA (with whom I usually disagree) has delineated the myriad reasons why it is so (namely, the factual sales); and Overstreet's says so. You may want to check your facts on that... http://www.ebay.com/itm/INCREDIBLE-HULK-181-WHITE-PAGES-CGC-GRADED-9-2-NOVEMBER-1974-/400755267796?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item5d4ee018d4 No cerebus 1, 9.2 has ever come in spitting distance of this. And this sale strongly suggests that it wouldn't, if one were to come up for sale: http://www.ebay.com/itm/CEREBUS-1-CGC-8-5-2000-PRINT-RUN-SUPER-RARE-IN-THIS-CONDITION-HTF-/251567379955?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item3a929595f3 We don't need rumour and word of mouth from dealers and rampant speculation, when we have publicly available sales to cull at our fingertips. Hence the point of my prior post. -J. Jay... that is bad form.... using facts..... Yes, using a record smashing example to demonstrate what is typical... That's a fact, alright. That is not what you are doing with Cerebus? Using one or a few sales to claim the value?

Again, you're just wrong here. It is proven, demonstrably more valuable grade-for-grade than IH 181 in 9.2, 9.4 and whatever other mythical 9.6 copies may exist. The market data say so; at least three reputable comic dealers in this thread say so; RMA (with whom I usually disagree) has delineated the myriad reasons why it is so (namely, the factual sales); and Overstreet's says so. You may want to check your facts on that... http://www.ebay.com/itm/INCREDIBLE-HULK-181-WHITE-PAGES-CGC-GRADED-9-2-NOVEMBER-1974-/400755267796?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item5d4ee018d4 No cerebus 1, 9.2 has ever come in spitting distance of this. And this sale strongly suggests that it wouldn't, if one were to come up for sale: http://www.ebay.com/itm/CEREBUS-1-CGC-8-5-2000-PRINT-RUN-SUPER-RARE-IN-THIS-CONDITION-HTF-/251567379955?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item3a929595f3 We don't need rumour and word of mouth from dealers and rampant speculation, when we have publicly available sales to cull at our fingertips. Hence the point of my prior post. -J. Jay... that is bad form.... using facts.....

This isn't true, you know this isn't true, it's been explained repeatedly why this isn't true, but you keep on repeating things that aren't true. Jaydog, why do you keep doing this? It has been explained why this isn't true, yet you keep repeating it as if it is. Why? Are you aware you're doing it? Are you a student of propaganda, which says to just lie, lie, lie, and the longer and more boldly and often you lie, the more likely it is to be believed? What you have said IS NOT TRUE. The 9.2 price you're comparing is from 2005, and you're comparing it to a price from 2014. You CANNOT make that comparison without including that information. It is DISHONEST to continue to do so. If a 9.6 shows up, do you think it will sell for LESS THAN a 9.4? If a 9.8 shows up, do you think it will sell for LESS THAN a 9.4? If you are interested in being taken seriously around here, stop repeating things that are patently untrue. There are five 9.4 Cerebus #1s, not three. The book has sold four times, as recorded at GPA, in ten years, not three. Details matter. And as stated multiple times, in multiple ways, no, that is NOT the argument that is being made. GPA data is just one source that the OPG uses to determine values. Hulk #181 does NOT "blow it out of the water" in any grade above 9.0. There aren't "pro-cerebus" folks. There are "pro-fact", "pro-reason", "pro-logic" folks. So? Is demand more or less valid based on why it exists? "Oh, THAT price doesn't count, because he's buying it as a trophy piece!"...? And "single highest graded" means there is ONE copy at the highest grade. "Single" refers to the quantity of the slabs, not the quality of the height. No. It doesn't work that way. Sorry, Jaydog, but it's not. But you keep repeating it, and I'll keep disputing it. That's not what "single highest grade" means. That IS what "single highest grade" means. Because there's a SINGLE copy in that grade. A "boatload"? I don't think you really understand what the 9.9 and 10 grades really mean. You just contradicted yourself in one breath. If it's rare, it's not going to have a lot of sales data. Not "no." Just not much. And you are mischaracterizing the situation for your own argument yet again: OPG doesn't use "mysterious, off the books sales"...there's nothing "mysterious" or "off the books" about it: GPA isn't the sole source of information that the OPG uses. How do you think Overstreet came up with prices for 3 decades before CGC and GPA existed? ~ ahem ~ Continuing on.... I have to say this again: comparing "top grades" is not appropriate when those top grades are not the same "The top grade for Book X is 6.5, and the top grade for Book Y is 9.8, so it's valid to compare the value of a 6.5 against a 9.8, because they're both "top grade." That is self-evidently false. You use the language of the propagandist very well, Jaydog. You use emotionally charged words like "hyping" and "whine" and "mysterious" and "knock"...none of which anyone has done. This has been a sober discussion, and no one has resorted to hyperbole, speculation, and emotionally charged buzzwords to discredit the opposing argument except you and some of those making the same argument. "Well, what if THIS, and what if THAT, and what if the OTHER??" It's not about "What ifs"...it's about what IS. It is not an "apples to apples comparison" to compare the value of a book in 9.4 to a book in 9.9. Repeat: It is not an "apples to apples comparison" to compare the value of a book in 9.4 to a book in 9.9. "Long after the book crashed"...? Did you really just say...on this message board...that the value of Hulk #181 "crashed"...? Really? This is not a valid comparison. You cannot compare a 9.2 to a 9.8. In 9.2 and above? Clearly, the Cerebus #1. I thought we established this pages ago. Comparing a 9.4 to a 9.9 is not a valid comparison. Again: Comparing a 9.4 to a 9.9 is not a valid comparison. Comparing a 9.2 to a 9.8 is not a valid comparison. Again: Comparing a 9.2 to a 9.8 is not a valid comparison. This is not true, as has already been explained ad nauseam. Words literally fail to express the depth of astonishment I feel at reading such a statement. You literally made my jaw drop when I read this statement. No one "won't acknowledge the possibility of price dilution", because that is precisely WHY Hulk #181 is worth less. There is more SUPPLY. That's the "supply" part of "supply and demand." Jaydog, seriously man. Seriously. Please stop using propaganda words like "trumpet" and "salivate." You can make your point without resorting to propaganda, honest. In "the real world", Cerebus #1 in 9.2 and above is worth more than Hulk #181. Period. When did Hulk #181 tank? (Nevermind, you don't answer direct questions anyways.) Yes, let's please not lose sight of the big picture and common sense. Cerebus #1 is a more valuable book than Hulk #181 in high grade, for all the reasons already well explained. No "what ifs". No hyperbole. That is the reason why it is in the top BA list ahead of Hulk #181: because it is worth more in high grade. The numbers don't lie. I just do not want to imagine that you actually believe all of this. Thank you RMA, you did not fail to disappoint. But before I leave you to this thread and your beloved copy of Cerebus 1, I will say this... 1) Prior to ebay, GPA, the internet, and cell phones, Overstreet relied on reports from dealers and LCS for its data. Guess what dude, it's 2014 now. He MAY still get SOME info that way still, but the vast majority of data is readily available to the public, and easily verifiable by anyone in this day and age. 2) The most recent sale of a Hulk 181 beats anything a Cerebus 1 has ever sold for in a 9.2. Don't have any public sales in a 9.2 for a Cerebus 1 in nearly 10 years? That's not Hulk 181's problem. Anything you "think" a 9.2 would go for now is just speculation. But estimates have been 2500-2800, based on the recent, verifiable sale of an 8.5 (fourth highest graded) which could barely eek out a meager $850. 3) When did Hulk 181 crash? Remember when a 9.8 was going for 20 grand? Oh, okay. 4) People don't pay a premium to have the highest graded example of a book, regardless of what that "highest grade" might be? Really RMA? For someone who purports to carry the torch for "facts" and "truth", you are so frequently WRONG it boggles the mind. Instead of seizing on minutiae to distract from the point, let's try staying on it: New Mutants 98, 10.0 anyone? GL 76, 9.6? Hulk 181, 9.9? ASM 194, 9.9? Avengers 4, 9.6? All of these "single highest grade" copies sold for EXTREME multiples of their next highest graded counterparts. Hey my man, just out of curiosity, what do you think that "highest graded" Action 1, 9.0 on ebay will go for? You think the buyer will end up paying a premium for that? Do you think that it will matter to him that there's another 9.0 on the census? It's still the "Single highest grade" available for the book. I didn't say the "single copy with the highest grade". See the difference now between the two terms now? So why do you think this is not a phenomenon that is in fact, very real and palpable, and why do you think it doesn't apply to the ONE grade (the highest), that Cerebus 1 currently out-sells Hulk 181 for (and pardon me, FIVE copies in ten years, because that makes such a big difference to the point than three copies in ten years)? Why do you think it doesn't apply? Because it is inconvenient to what you evidently need to believe about this book. You're right, no one needs to make a case for Hulk 181, the book stands on its own as one of the pillars of the entire hobby. Deal with it. It's the Cerebus 1 that needs the apologists, qualifiers, bargaining, excuse-making and a dozen caveats for it to have any kind of relevance beyond the collections of die hard devotees. Which is, as I said before, also good for the hobby, but not in the same way that Hulk 181 is good for the hobby, and not on anywhere near the same level. You can go on and on about how the 5 copies of Cerebus 9.4 are "worth" more than a hulk 181 in a 9.4, because at this point, that's all you have left to hang your hat on I get it. But under no circumstances could any unbiased, reasonable person say that Cerebus 1 is more "valuable" than Hulk 181. -J. I didn't check GPA for Cerebus. I assumed it probably was more valuable because if it has just a little fan crowd it should be more valuable given the small print run. But if it cannot even outdo Hulk 181 on value given much lower print run... then there is really no discussion. RMA - just this to you. You try to pick apart Jay's response, but you make so many mistakes it would fill the entire page to to the same to your posts. For example he says that 181 had a boatload more chances to get 9.9 or 10. Your answer is "I don't think you understand what 9.9 or 10 means". That is not only arrogant, it is also wrong.. He (like all of us) understands very very what 9.9 is... and no matter how strict the grade is, he is still right that the muuuuch higher print run gave the book a mich higher chance of getting 9.9. Probably 10 times, 100 times or even higher chance. That does not mean the chance is high. It might have gone 100 fold up from a very low decimal number. So it is still an extremely low chance, but it has increased many many times... and that was his point. You keep misunderstanding logic time and time again. It is obvious Hulk 181 is a far more important book. It is also more valuable? This can be a bit questioned I think, but in light of Jay's analysis above the most logical answer (despite a couple of guys' attempts to use school yard tactics to pretend to be right) is that Hulk 181 is also the most valuable. And... if there was an even number of the two (let's say just as many cerebus as there are now H181) then a Cerebus would most probably be worth about the same as a Thor 158 or there about....across grades.

I think we are going in circles... I cannot imagine you disagree that Hulk181 is the more important book. And I'm sure you agree the demand is higher in all grades. Saying that demand differs at different grades does not makes much sense. What differs with grades is the supply. Howevery because demand can be satisfied faster the price does not get up as high on the demand curve.

It is? So who determine's 'importance'? The market? Well in this case the market has spoken. I can agree with that. The facts show support for what RMA is saying. It makes little sense to debate it, it is what it is. Only by changing the parameters of the what information is being discussed (which is what they've done) has anyone even been able to turn it into a discussion. But regardless of if you or I think it is senseless to discuss or not, that WAS the OP's subject for discussion, and he's entitled to that. That's just not true at all. There are fewer copies at every grade level. From 8.5 on down Hulk #181 dominates in price. And it's one of the parameters that's been added to the topic to try and defend the death grip clinging nostalgia for the 'Wolverine'. No. That is incorrect. And anyway, it is NOT, absolutely NOT, the argument that was being made. Does anyone read what is actually being discussed or do they just wait for their turn to type? In the simplest terms, SCARCITY does NOT automatically increase value. Period. It CAN influence value, if other factors like importance or popularity are added to it. There are PLENTY of books more scarce than Cerebus #1 in 9.4 that wouldn't come ANYWHERE close to competing with IH181. WHY? Because they're NOT IMPORTANT. The REASON Cerebus #1 in 9.0+ DOES, is because of it's IMPORTANCE AND SCARCITY. Now Is it OVERALL more important than the first appearance of Wolverine. Of course not. And no one is SAYING that. NO ONE IS ARGUING THAT POINT. Stand down defenders of nostalgia. Your childhood dreams are still safe. What IS being said, is that based upon what information we have, it looks as though in 9.0 and up Cerebus #1 is selling for more than IH181. Some people are upset at the thought that some book that they are less familiar with could compete with the 'Wolverine'. Well, go buy a Hulk181 in 9.4 for $10,000 and you'll have your way. Somebody else has already put THEIR money where their mouth is on a Cerebus #1. Bottom line is this: You give any credible dealer the option to buy, only one of, either a 9.4 Hulk 181 or a 9.4 Cerebus #1 for $500, and they're going to take the Cerebus. WHY? Because they'll...MAKE MORE MONEY OFF OF IT. WHY? Because of it's DEMAND (popularity) combined with it's SCARCITY. Hulk181 is in demand, but in this COMPARISON, they'll make MORE money off of the Cerebus #1. HENSE.... the more VALUABLE of a book.... Now get this: If it WASN'T in demand (popular, wanted, desired) and have the possibility of selling for quite a bit MORE than the 9.4 Hulk181, but was still SCARCE.... the dealer wouldn't take that deal. Get that? The SCARCITY is NOT what makes it more valuable. It's the DEMAND (i.e. Popularity), added to the scarcity, that makes it valuable. In HIGHER GRADE, the DEMAND for the limited number of Cerebus #1's, appears to make it a more valuable book than IH181. More popular? Of course not. But In HIGHER GRADE, the DEMAND for the limited number of Cerebus #1's, appears to make it a more valuable book than IH181. Chuck. Let's keep it single..because it really is.. If there existed the same number of copies of the two... which book do you think would be more valuable? ...there is the answer... To get more specific. Of course scarcity alone does not create value... that is why I said it is a meaningful book..be a use if it wasn't then even scarcity would not make it valuable. However..the test of thinking of the two equally scare nonetheless will demonstrate quite clearly which one is the most important. Btw. Usually I'm not childish enough to use face palms emoticons...but it seems to be your language.

That's good, because that would be contrary to established facts. Says who? How do you know that the high price is "mostly" due to the low supply? How do you determine which percentage of the sales price is due to demand, and which is due to the supply? Isn't it supply AND demand? Because it is nearly impossible to determine how demand affects the final price of any item. There are many, many books that are much, much rarer than Cerebus #1, and yet, they don't command the same prices. Why is that? There are fewer Maxx #2 and #3 ashcans than Cerebus #1s....and yet, they're worth far, far less than it is. How is that so, since the supply is much lower? There are only 100 copies each of the Vampirella Royal Blues, and yet, it's difficult to get $30 for most of them. It is incorrect to use the word "objective" in conjunction with adjectives like "most important", "more desirable", "better", "best", etc, as those words are, by definition, used to make subjective value judgments. Popularity does not determine truth. If 7 billion people believed that Howard the Duck was the most important character in comics, would that make it true? Or would it rather be actual objective factors like sales figures, longevity, cross-media exposure and the like which determines importance? That said, however, the issue is not, and never has been, which character is more important. No one, in the entire course of this discussion, has disputed the fact that Wolverine is a far, far more important character than Cerebus. So, the example is moot. Let's face facts, folks: you guys resent the fact that Cerebus #1 is more valuable than Hulk #181 in the highest grades. Admit it, and stop trying to defend it already. You've apparently not heard of the fact that extreme rarity can actually hinder popularity, and thus the price, of an item. If an item is essentially unobtainable, it will be dismissed and ignored, because no one can actively collect it. The 1804 dollar, with 15 examples floating around, is worth more than an 1870-S half dime, with only 1. You can own an 1804 dollar, if you have enough money. You cannot own an 1870-S half dime, for any price, until the owner decides to sell it. That's correct. We are all in agreement, and have never not been in agreement that Hulk #181 is a more important book to the comics hobby than Cerebus #1. What you're not understanding is that this discussion has nothing whatsoever to do with which character or book is more important. But I thank you for your response. Probably you only read some of the posts. Several people discussed which book was a major key or not. Key status is determined by importance. . Not value. So obviously we began also discussing importance at some point in the thread. Which book is currently more valuable makes little sense to discuss. We can look at the GPA and it shows that whenever there are far far fewer copies of cerebus it is the more valuable book. That is nothing to really discuss. So the point stands. Cerebus is more valuable in most grades. But solely because it is far more scarce and despite being a less important book.

That's the white elephant in the room that has been ignored. Folks like RMA would rather point out the merits of another poster's auto correct ("Cerberus" vs. "Cerebus", my phone doesn't care either, my man) or how they choose to abbreviate "Overstreet", than the fact that about the only thing Overstreet is good for at this point is maintaining the status quo for old school collectors and giving local dealers something to low ball you with when you try to sell your books. It's great that some dealers can anecdotally recount how well their copies of Cerebus sell when they have them, there will always be a buyer for a book at some price. But again, if the book had an availability that was half (or even a quarter?) of Hulk 181, It would likely not be of any interest to even the niche collectors who like to feel like they have something "rare" in their collections. Essentially the true "value" of the book is skewed mightily by the low print and nothing else. The value of hulk 181 is intrinsic and real. If Hulk 181 had the same print run as Cerebus it would probably be a 250k book in a 9.4. If Cerebus had the same print run as Hulk 181 it would probably be a 20 dollar book. I believe that is the point others have been trying to make when expressing bewilderment about Overstreet's list. And no, hulk 181 hasn't "slowed". It's actually having its best year from a price appreciation standpoint in a long time. (thumbs u -J. This post really sums the situation up nicely. The argument about price to defend why ceres is important is not valid. Yes, it is expensive. But that has to do with the low print run and NOT because it is so sought after by a lot of people. Like you say..if they were equal print runs there would be a world of difference. Few people want the book but because of the low print run the value is such that the meager demand still is greater than the even more meager supply...therefore from a business pow we would like to have the book because we know it can sell for a high price. But again...not because it's an important character...because it has a low print run.. Why is there such a surplus of people willing to chuck reason out the window...? :shrug: The entire post you just said "summed up the situation nicely" is absolutely filled with bad reasoning, flawed understanding, and borderline libel. And then, you add your own to it! There are PLENTY of books that have print runs AND census counts AS LOW, or LOWER than Cerebus #1...but they do NOT sell for four figures in 9.0+. NO ONE is arguing that Cerebus #1 (not "ceres") is important because of its value. The argument is that Cerebus #1 has value because it is important It is supply AND DEMAND which runs a market. Why does that demand exist? Do you know the history of Cerebus, and how it influenced the comics industry? Do you really believe what you just posted...? Oy, people, come ON! Why do you post such things, for all the world to see? Gentlemen...we MUST use reason! Yes, logic is king. By the way, noone is saying that Cerebus is worthless. It has some meaning and more than many other books. However, the high price is mostly due to the low supply. Let try to see if an example brings it home for you: If 1.000.000 people think book A has the most important character while 5 people think book B has the most important character. Then which book objectively has the most important character? --- Good... Now, let's add this information: There are printed 2.000.000 copies of book A. There are printed 2 copies of book B. Which book might fetch the highest price? It might very well be book B - simply because there is not enough supply to satisfy demand. Market Theory 101. However, as was demonstrated, that does NOT mean that book B is the more important book. Logic. It's a close call. I see your logic, but give this a shot. Even though there are 50X more graded copies of the 181, there are 5 copies of Cerebus that are worth more than every single copy of 181, except the single 9.9, which is an anomaly. There was a great point made by Chuck earlier. You have $1000 to spend on either book and they both appear NM what comic do you go with? If money means anything to the buyer, it's a simple question to answer. However, there are 8.5 Cerebus 1's on comiclink that aren't bid up anywhere near their 181 counterparts. This cannot be ignored either. There are merits to both sides, but if I had to pick a winner I know it's Cerebus #1 by a nose. Also important to remember and someone did bring it up earlier that Cerebus was ranked lower than 181 last year, and the new rankings were effective when the book was published a few months back before the 181's in 9.2 broke $3k. It's been a while since a highest or second highest Cerebus #1 has come to market, and this may cause a bidding war if one were brought to auction. If one of the 3 SS 9.4's were bumped, I would love to see the hammer price of a 9.6, or better yet a 9.8. You are talking about price not importance. In terms of price the Cerebus might well be the highest priced. In fact it would be very strange if it wasn't because it is a meaningful book and print run was so much lower than 181. So if you want to declare a 'winner' in terms of price... it is probably the Cerebus, because of reasons similar to the ones outlined in the example above. I was talking in terms of importance. E.g. which book contains the most important first appearance etc. And there the IH181 clearly wins.

That's the white elephant in the room that has been ignored. Folks like RMA would rather point out the merits of another poster's auto correct ("Cerberus" vs. "Cerebus", my phone doesn't care either, my man) or how they choose to abbreviate "Overstreet", than the fact that about the only thing Overstreet is good for at this point is maintaining the status quo for old school collectors and giving local dealers something to low ball you with when you try to sell your books. It's great that some dealers can anecdotally recount how well their copies of Cerebus sell when they have them, there will always be a buyer for a book at some price. But again, if the book had an availability that was half (or even a quarter?) of Hulk 181, It would likely not be of any interest to even the niche collectors who like to feel like they have something "rare" in their collections. Essentially the true "value" of the book is skewed mightily by the low print and nothing else. The value of hulk 181 is intrinsic and real. If Hulk 181 had the same print run as Cerebus it would probably be a 250k book in a 9.4. If Cerebus had the same print run as Hulk 181 it would probably be a 20 dollar book. I believe that is the point others have been trying to make when expressing bewilderment about Overstreet's list. And no, hulk 181 hasn't "slowed". It's actually having its best year from a price appreciation standpoint in a long time. (thumbs u -J. This post really sums the situation up nicely. The argument about price to defend why ceres is important is not valid. Yes, it is expensive. But that has to do with the low print run and NOT because it is so sought after by a lot of people. Like you say..if they were equal print runs there would be a world of difference. Few people want the book but because of the low print run the value is such that the meager demand still is greater than the even more meager supply...therefore from a business pow we would like to have the book because we know it can sell for a high price. But again...not because it's an important character...because it has a low print run.. Why is there such a surplus of people willing to chuck reason out the window...? :shrug: The entire post you just said "summed up the situation nicely" is absolutely filled with bad reasoning, flawed understanding, and borderline libel. And then, you add your own to it! There are PLENTY of books that have print runs AND census counts AS LOW, or LOWER than Cerebus #1...but they do NOT sell for four figures in 9.0+. NO ONE is arguing that Cerebus #1 (not "ceres") is important because of its value. The argument is that Cerebus #1 has value because it is important It is supply AND DEMAND which runs a market. Why does that demand exist? Do you know the history of Cerebus, and how it influenced the comics industry? Do you really believe what you just posted...? Oy, people, come ON! Why do you post such things, for all the world to see? Gentlemen...we MUST use reason! Yes, logic is king. By the way, noone is saying that Cerebus is worthless. It has some meaning and more than many other books. However, the high price is mostly due to the low supply. Let try to see if an example brings it home for you: If 1.000.000 people think book A has the most important character while 5 people think book B has the most important character. Then which book objectively has the most important character? --- Good... Now, let's add this information: There are printed 2.000.000 copies of book A. There are printed 2 copies of book B. Which book might fetch the highest price? It might very well be book B - simply because there is not enough supply to satisfy demand. Market Theory 101. However, as was demonstrated, that does NOT mean that book B is the more important book. Logic.

That's the white elephant in the room that has been ignored. Folks like RMA would rather point out the merits of another poster's auto correct ("Cerberus" vs. "Cerebus", my phone doesn't care either, my man) or how they choose to abbreviate "Overstreet", than the fact that about the only thing Overstreet is good for at this point is maintaining the status quo for old school collectors and giving local dealers something to low ball you with when you try to sell your books. It's great that some dealers can anecdotally recount how well their copies of Cerebus sell when they have them, there will always be a buyer for a book at some price. But again, if the book had an availability that was half (or even a quarter?) of Hulk 181, It would likely not be of any interest to even the niche collectors who like to feel like they have something "rare" in their collections. Essentially the true "value" of the book is skewed mightily by the low print and nothing else. The value of hulk 181 is intrinsic and real. If Hulk 181 had the same print run as Cerebus it would probably be a 250k book in a 9.4. If Cerebus had the same print run as Hulk 181 it would probably be a 20 dollar book. I believe that is the point others have been trying to make when expressing bewilderment about Overstreet's list. And no, hulk 181 hasn't "slowed". It's actually having its best year from a price appreciation standpoint in a long time. (thumbs u -J. This post really sums the situation up nicely. The argument about price to defend why ceres is important is not valid. Yes, it is expensive. But that has to do with the low print run and NOT because it is so sought after by a lot of people. Like you say..if they were equal print runs there would be a world of difference. Few people want the book but because of the low print run the value is such that the meager demand still is greater than the even more meager supply...therefore from a business pow we would like to have the book because we know it can sell for a high price. But again...not because it's an important character...because it has a low print run..

Yeah the FMV of a 3.0 PLOD is probably around $1,000 at the moment.

It is certainly not a major key. Hulk 181 obviously is a major key. However, Cerebus might still be very expensive because the print run was so limited. It is demand and supply. But yes... Cerebus is no major key because 99% of collectors don't want it - and out of them 90% probably didn't even know it existed..

I hate that Leonardo signed the Mona Lisa.... it just somehow is really bad...

How about Stan Lee? I have never met him. After meeting him did you have a different opinion of him?

If this sale is legit, it seems like a steal next to the Tec #31 CGC 2.0 that recently sold on Heritage for $34,655. I understand recent FMV may place the two books close, but in the long run, I don't see them as being anywhere near close. I agree.

Marvel seems to think of deadpool as the most important character since Wolverine... and the fact that there are many in 9.8.... is the reason why it is not a $4.000 book in 9.8.

Good choice. Especially for ST110 SS looks really nice.

I agree, the RFG is a great foe for JLA.

Yes congrats - btw.. that 9.2 Atom is sweeeeet Is that a pedigree?

A 9.4 ST ... that is just impossible to get.. and with the movie moving closer it will just get even further out of reach. I'm so envious.....

And 30! And 60...btw just as surprising as GOTG success is..just as thought provoking is the going out of favor of the Spectre. ..Once one of the top characters in the hobby. Could he get a revival?

SC17. ....love that...and of course no. 4 too....man there are soo many great ones.

Yes, Those are beauts! Didn't you recently pick up a #34? Thanks. Yes, I did just get a 34..... Wow.. My favorite of the Showcase books. Runner up would between be the hawkman one or second Atom.

9.4 110. ....that's impressive. ...