RockMyAmadeus

Who said anything about not commenting? Not being qualified to offer an opinion doesn't mean you can't, and it certainly doesn't mean the trolls won't. Of course they will. But keep in mind: they don't care about this issue, or any issue, upon which they troll. Their goal is to defame and discredit, in any possible way they can. I'm pretty sure that's fairly obvious to anyone paying attention.

Yes, just the book missing the foil application step. It's really neat. If I got one, I'd probably try to get it signed.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/169/Strawman-Fallacy

And for those who imagine that being persistent accomplishes nothing, tell me...how is the Newton Ring issue going these days...? What...? You mean, CGC is taking steps to resolve it...? You don't say....

Of course, the whole thread is yet another disingenuous attempt to provoke conflict, with the side benefit of muddying the water by people who have neither experience nor interest in the Signature Series program, and are therefore entirely unqualified to be offering their "opinions" on the matter. It's a very straightforward, easily understandable issue. If it comes out of your pocket, no one is going to tolerate being upcharged for nothing in return. You get the same signature, the same service, for the same effort, at a higher price, based on information that is none of a creator's business. There's no genuine, honest disagreement here, and there never was. It is Monty Python-level absurdity for anyone to complain about others "trying to change people's minds" when they are doing precisely the same thing....and for dishonest reasons. It's all been explained. One need only read with an open mind. The only people's minds that need "changing" are the creators, and even that is merely a function of accurate information. And the only way creators are going to change their minds is if their customers...the ones getting the books signed, regardless of why...say something. I could not possibly care less about "changing" the mind of some troll who doesn't give a single damn about the SS program. It is, as always, the people reading the thread, but not participating, who are my intended audience. So, yes, someone is certainly tilting at windmills...I wonder who...? And, more importantly, why...?

No That's going to make your claim pretty much impossible, since you don't know when it happened, or by whom. Sorry.

The only question that matters: do you have pictures of before you sent it?

Very nice!

That's not the right word. There's no mercury involved. I meant "metal alloy."

I have two long boxes and a short box of Brigade #1 gold...

I would pee my pants and squeal like a 10 year old girl.

Lots and lots of people who don't participate in the SS program being perfectly fine with a CGC punishment tax...so long as they don't have to pay it, fine, charge away! How delightfully easy it is to spend other people's money! None of you...not a single one of you...would find it acceptable for your grocery store to charge a higher price for your eggs based on what you intend to do with them. None of you. You'd all pitch a fit, and rightfully so, because it's none of the grocery store's business what you intend to do with your eggs. But if you aren't affected by it...by all means, upcharge all you want! And you don't need to guess: most of these creators will tell you why, even though that reason is nonsense. Now I need to go to bed. Night!

Right...and your decision to pay more tax than you are required to is completely optional. And the venue doesn't charge different prices for the same seat on the same night at the same time of purchase, whether the purchaser intends to use the ticket or resell it. See? It all ties back together. Ok, this has been fun, and welcome back from your hiatus, but it's time for me to go to bed. You may be on to something with the "wigs" thing... Night!

Although, now that I think about it....I *might* just be interested in an Art Adams wig, now that you mention it...

No, but your initial comment did. Here it is: "People will happily pay some random stranger to verify a signature but get offended when the talent wants pay too, and that I don’t get." If you go to Denny's, "some random stranger" isn't making your breakfast: the cook is. "Some random stranger" does not imply a witness working for CGC, OR a cook working for Denny's. It implies "some random stranger." You worded it poorly, and don't want to admit it. Keep tryin'! This is fun! Correct. I think you mean "sigs"..."wigs" would be weird...but otherwise, correct. Correct! Which is why the creator doesn't deserve to "get paid" a different amount for the signature than they would otherwise charge everyone else. Now you're with me! Of course. Not in dispute. Ok...again, you're like the person who says "everyone should pay higher taxes!" when there's nothing preventing you from paying higher taxes on your own. If you want to do that, fine...but you have no business demanding everyone else do it, too.

You're reallllllllllllly reaching to not be wrong on this. Again: you don't know the SS program, or how it works, so you're not in a position to say. I, for example, personally know several of the "on hand" witnesses at CGC, as well as various other witnesses who work for facilitators around the country. And "some random stranger" implies that they not only have no connection to the customer, but to CGC as well, as if you just randomly pulled someone you don't know out of the crowd to come watch your book(s) get signed. Again: that's not how it works. So, no, it is not "some random stranger" at all, and none of which matters one iota in the first place. Nice try, though! Not in dispute. What's your point? None of this contradicts the fact that the public doesn't "owe" a creator anything, whether they charge $10,000,000 for their sig, or sign for free, whether they come to sign, or whether they don't. Such bad reasoning. Oy! I guarantee you, no one is booking a flight and paying $300 for a ticket to get a single Fine+ copy of X-Factor #40 signed. I PROMISE you. In the case of the signature vs. the witness, the witness is doing more labor. Really. And if you want to compare who is "providing more valuable labor", I'm happy to point you to hundreds and thousands of examples of signatures that didn't add a dime to the value of a comic, whereas, the value of the witness remains constant. You should familiarize yourself with the SS program. Who knows, you might like it.

Again: no one has suggested that they shouldn't be compensated. But, by the same token, the public doesn't "owe" them business, and there are several creators who sign absolutely for free (like the Simonsons.) Just because a witness may not be personally known by a customer doesn't mean they are strangers. You're not "paying some random stranger to verify a signature", as you initially claimed. That's not how the program works. Don't go changing the goalposts. The labor of a witness is more than the labor to sign a book. Again: if you participated in the SS program, you would know how it works. You sound just like the people who argue for higher taxes. "I would gladly pay higher taxes, so you should, too!" Except there's nothing preventing you from paying higher taxes right now. You don't want to pay higher taxes unless everyone else has to, also.

From one of the greatest runs in comics history, Cap #332-350. Gruenwald's greatest run.

That's what you get for buying Adam Hughes porn...

Sure. And that labor deserves compensation...compensation meaning "compensatory with the effort." Nobody has said creators should be uncompensated for their effort. That's not the issue. But your reasoning is bad: these creators come to these conventions whether they sign or not. They are not "owed" by the public simply for showing up. That's between them and the convention organizers. Again: the value of these books is in what they are, and what condition they are in. A signature CAN add a measure of value to, say, a New Mutants #98 in 9.8 condition. It adds absolutely nothing to an X-Force #40 in 6.5 condition. And the creator has nothing whatsoever to do with the item or its preservation, so why should they share in any of the reward...if any...for that? Lots of people have lots of power they shouldn't use "however they feel." Having the power to do something isn't justification for doing so. Since when does "might make right"...? No one is saying they shouldn't charge...the issue is charging a different price for the same service. That's it. You wouldn't tolerate it at the grocery store. Why should fans tolerate it from creators? Witnesses are not strangers. That's not how the program works. Right. Just like everyone who doesn't see a problem with creators charging a CGC punishment tax. No skin in the game.

So long as bad arguments keep being made, they ought to be countered with good ones, regardless of the disingenuous motives of those involved. It would be a mistake to assume that there aren't people seeing these discussions for the very first time. There are far more people reading this...some for the very first time...than participating.

Because the world doesn't operate on "how I collect rules, and how you collect sucks." Nobody is "paying some random stranger to verify a signature." That's not how the SS program works, or has ever worked. The "talent" has no claim to "the pay." Not sure what there is to "get." "The pay" is based on the book and its condition...NOT the signature. Have you ever participated in the Signature Series program...?

"Consider the source", especially on threads like these, becomes paramount. You have people who have no experience with the SS program, don't go to cons, don't get things signed, don't participate in the SS program at all, who don't talk to the SS program people at CGC, who don't participate in organizing conventions, who don't talk to convention promoters, who openly confess they have zero interest in signed books in the first place, and think it's "defacing" the comics, and who do none of the things necessary to make an informed, educated contribution to this discussion. Instead, they make bad, ignorant, simplistic arguments like "I can't negotiate with my dentist" (no, but you can go elsewhere, and you probably aren't charged a different price for the service based on what you intend to do with your teeth) and "I don't see what the problem is charging a different price for the same service." They don't know how much business the creator is doing. They aren't even in a position to guess. They don't know that certain creators sit at conventions all weekend long, with no business the entire time, because they've priced themselves out of the market. They don't know that the creators or their reps complain to promoters that they "had a bad show." They don't know that creators are being lied to, and peer pressured, into charging more than they otherwise would. The have no idea that creators don't participate in the SS market, and so generally have no idea how it works, other than "people are making $$$ off you!" They don't understand that creators are creators for a reason; they're not economists, they're mostly not businessmen and women, and they don't really deal with "the business end" of things, which opens them up, in fear and greed, to manipulation by others. And, frankly...they don't care that creators suffer because they don't get business, and they don't care that their lives are finite, or that a "bird in the hand is worth two in the bush"...in other words, $10 for 150 books now is better than $20 for 0 books never. They don't care that creators are hurt by alienating fans, that fans are hurt by being treated like they're somehow taking advantage of the creator if they want their book slabbed, and CGC is hurt...whether it's obvious at the moment or not...by not getting submissions they otherwise would. Of course they "don't see a problem" with charging different prices...why would they? They don't participate in the first place. They have no stake...and thus don't care. My advice..? You want to have an informed, educated opinion on the matter, go to these conventions and observe the situation. Be a witness (CGC is always looking for witness help.) Work the SS program, and see how it operates. Talk to creators. If you don't care about the Signature Series program or signed books in the first place, have never participated in it, and have no clue how it works, and zero interest in getting anything signed...explain to me again how your opinion has value...?

Absolutely! Until it is signed. After that, it's no longer his or her property. They maintain total control until they put pen to paper and sign...after that, it no longer belongs to them. True. The problem is when the signature *buyer* is confronted and asked "what they intend to do with that once it's signed." Or, there's a sign that says "sigs are this much, CGC is that much plus some more." No one has a right to ask anyone that...yet, we are forced to answer that question, or "no sigs for you!" Can you imagine, walking into a grocery store, buying a dozen eggs, and being asked what you intend to do with them...and then being charged a higher price based on your answer...? I don't disagree with you in the slightest. You are absolutely correct. The problem is that the creator is charging different prices even to the same individual, depending on information that is none of the creator's business! In addition...no one has a problem with a creator charging a lower price...for, say, that aforementioned "pretty girl" or a kid, or a friend, or whatnot. But what happens when that creator decides he or she wants to charge double because they don't like what the next person looks like...? Or worse, doesn't want to sign at all...? Would there not be an uproar...? I think so. Can a person discriminate, based on any criteria, and charge whatever they want, to whomever they want, for whatever reason they want? Sure. But not without consequences. You charge double to someone because you don't like the way they look...you're gonna hear about it. And, if I can get my books signed at a discount just for bringing over a pretty girl...pretty girls are fairly common. I imagine I could convince one to come with me and practice her charms on the creator. You know how to avoid people trying to "game the system"..? Don't have a system to game. Yes, lots and lots of opinions expressed by people who have no experience with the SS program, or creators within the SS program, or CGC about the program, or even interest in it at all. Interesting, that...

What makes you think I'm not already doing this...?