RockMyAmadeus

Precisely. Say I have 2 copies of X-Men #164. I paid $1 each for them, 25 years ago. I get them signed by Claremont, I press them, I sub them, they come back 9.8...hopefully...and I now have a 9.8 SS copy to keep, and a 9.8 SS copy to sell. For a little extra effort...and cost...I have a little bit added to the value of my 9.8. The underlying value is in the 9.8 X-Men #164....not Claremont's signature.

I'll play along, Stu...which dealers make their living selling SS? And, as a followup, why don't you understand the process of slabbing and selling? Or do you think people just buy books already slabbed, crack them, get them signed, resub them (hoping for no grade drop in the process, for any reason), and make some sort of living off of that absurdly tiny margin...? I'll hang up and take my answer on air.

Quiet, hippy!

Your point hasn't been missed, and no one thus far involved has disagreed with you. Where you are missing the mark is that your point has nothing to do with the conversation. You are making an incredibly simple concept radically more complicated than it needs to be. What you are arguing, and the numbers you are using, is not how it works. The value of an item isn't dictated by time, and never has been, so your "another factor" is erroneous. Value is dictated by supply and demand, and only supply and demand. Demand is driven by what something IS. An Iphone 10 is more valuable than a flip phone because of what they both ARE, which creates more demand for the one, and less demand for the other. Depreciation, which is what you're referring to here, is merely a function of that same supply and demand. All of which is completely irrelevant to the point: that the SIGNATURE does not account for more than a TINY percentage of the value of a Sig Series slab, IF ANY.

You're wayyyyyyy overthinking it. The main driver of a book's value is what it is. Whether that "it" is "the first appearance of Deadpool" or "the hot brand new Campbell variant", it's still the same thing: what it is. The "why" is not germane to this particular discussion. The second driver of value is condition. A signature, or signatures, added to a book...with some very rare exceptions (Stan Lee)...only accounts for a tiny portion of added value, if any, and is highly dependent on the first two factors. A Jim Lee signature added to a 9.0 Alpha Flight #58? Adds nothing. The cost is substantially more than the resulting slab is worth. A Jim Lee signature added to a 9.8 Batman #608 RRP? Now it has an effect...but only because of the underlying book and its condition. That's the thrust of the issue.

I'll have to pass at this time, but at least there's an offer on the table! Welll....it WAS on the table, but the half eaten sub fell on the floor, so it's a little dirty. I brushed it off.

Ok, but only if you'll take $3.50. And a half eaten meatball sub.

It's funny cuz you're four days earlier than Blowie. Speaking of which...what was going on in January 2007 that brought so many nerds to the yard....?

I want it. I'm not buying it. I just want it. What a beauty.

Not very. The cases really are designed to be pretty tamper evident. Far more common are the people who don't know what they're doing but rush to judgment and are too quick to cry "FAKE!!!" without evidence. By the way...there are security devices about the cases that nobody but CGC knows about, that they keep in-house on purpose.

True, but he does charge a CGC punishment tax, which is the issue, rep or no. But otherwise, I'm in complete agreement with your comments. Just charge one price. Whatever it is. Don't punish people over things that aren't any of your business. It's pretty simple. And I LOVE Campbell art. As I told him on that November day in 2016 in Burbank, CA, "I've been a fan of yours since Deathmate Black" (yes, he did a few pages in that.) Which, ok, isn't technically true, but close enough...when I saw the art for Gen 13 #3 a couple months later (#1 and #2 were sold out)...I was hooked. Absolutely hooked. Thought he was the next Jim Lee. You can watch him improve before your very eyes, page to page, throughout that Gen 13 mini. ...so, yeah, with him, telling me to my face that I'm not a fan, because I'm getting books signed, and that I have to pay more because of the way I collect...? Come on.

This guy is a conspiratorial nutjob. He created an entire video based on a faulty understanding of grading. Ugh. I had to watch that entire thing. So, how is this guy wrong? 1. There are 6 copies of this book...and only 6...on the census, or, more importantly, have ever BEEN on the census. All 6 are...yup...9.8. 5 were graded between 2006-2007, and the 6th and last in late 2014. This book was one of the 2007 copies. So, his claim that this book was "probably a 9.0" with a label that was swapped is false, because there are no other (lower grade) labels for this book to swap WITH. 2. The book may be slightly gift graded, but only slightly. Aside from the top corner, there's nothing else wrong with the book that would knock it out of 9.8. All of his "flaws" he lists are typical production for books like this. 3. It's very difficult to swap labels in a case that has three of its four posts still intact without crumpling the label to some extent...and that assumes there IS such a label that exists TO be swapped, which there is not. 4. He doesn't even know the terminology. He calls the inner well a "cell-o bag." 5. While it's true that thieves and cheats practice on low value items to perfect their methods, there's nothing here that suggests this is one of those examples. 6. He compares it to a PGX slab. That alone disqualifies him. Yes, the one post is broken. Granted. But the other three are not. Yes, he should have returned the slab for that problem alone if it wasn't mentioned. But no, the book is not a "counterfeit CGC slab." Sigh. And, of course, if the other 5 9.8s do show up, he's going to have Occam's Razored himself into oblivion, because his will be the 6th label, and there are no other blue labels of this book (and thus, no copies to "swap labels with") that exist. This guy is a PERFECT EXAMPLE of how having a little knowledge can be a very dangerous thing. The funniest line this guy had was "This could end up in the hands of someone else who is not as experienced as I am." You'd have to be my grandmother to not be as experienced as this guy.

Does this mean they regularly look up other companies grading information when they grade a book that was previously graded by another company? Are they not grading blind? Was it a prescreen of some sort that made them suspicious? It's a specious answer. They "don't want to put other companies down"...? Sounds nice and virtue-signally, but why would another company be "put down" because some unknown third party may have tampered with their slabs? Is it "the other company"s fault that that happened? Of course not. Does it POTENTIALLY expose a hole in a system? Of course it does, and every such event should be investigated...which is why withholding this information is not a virtuous act, but rather a fairly slimy thing to do. .An "anonymous" report does no one any good, and could very, very easily be seen as an attempt to introduce doubt about "the other companies" that isn't justified. If you're unwilling to support your claim, don't make it. Everybody should be doing their due diligence, all the time. It's not difficult. And what do they mean, "the grades and serial numbers...didn't match up"...? Are they saying there were labels with real serial numbers with grades that didn't match those serial numbers...? Are they saying there were labels with fake serial numbers...? Are they saying that the books themselves didn't match up with the grades *they* thought they should be...? And how does one "make sure the grade corresponds to the book in your hand", if customers don't know how to grade, and are relying on the grading service to inform them...? Last year, a very serious flaw was discovered in CBCS' case design, wherein the heat seal didn't touch the label, and because of that, it was relatively easy to swap out labels without anyone being aware. It was brought to light by CBCS customers, with copious pictorial documentation, and the company took steps to resolve it. That's how this should be addressed, too...not some anonymous, virtue-signalling report that could just be an attempt to create market doubt about the competition. A little "wink, wink, nudge, nudge, Brand Ecch isn't as secure as they want you to think they are..." I'm not saying that's the case...but I'm not saying it's not, either.

You better not charge extra "for CGC." I can track down your old posts...

I suspect it will beat the estimate.

I wouldn't put it past the people who run Voldy's facebook...for a hot second...to invent this story as a means of making people question the products of "other companies." If it's legitimate, they ought to be showing the books and labels and why they think they're fake, as well as attempting to source these fakes. Sunlight.

I don't remotely disagree with you.

I blame liquor.

Don't forget that for moderns, especially the variant cover market, much of the value is derived by the age of the book. A variant cover fresh off the presses today commands a premium because of its freshness, with speculators and addicts both keeping prices inflated. There is a "Fear of Missing Out" mentality on all of these books. But, wait 30 days and, in the majority of cases, prices fall precipitously. Ok, but how is that different from a book's status (that is, "what it is")...? Having been intimately involved, to the tune of thousands upon thousands of books, over the last 10 11 years with the SS program, I can confidently say that most creators really don't have any clue how the collector market works. Many of them think that collectors are very weird, and a good chunk of those look on collectors with scorn and contempt. "Comics are for reading, not taking right off the press, and hiding them away, never to be touched" they think to themselves (and frequently say out loud.) They don't understand the collector mentality, and the majority of them aren't collectors themselves. They think collectors are stupid to pay $X,XXX for a comic, when they can get the same art and story in a reprint for a couple bucks. So, when Sig Series (and slabbing in general) came along, it just fed into that already extant contempt by creators for collectors. Creators automatically, knee-jerk, assume that those who bring them rags to sign have read them and loved them, and are the REAL fans, while those who bring them beautiful copies to sign, window bagged and all, are scummy profiteers, who have never read a comic in their lives. This is an erroneous assumption, but it's one creators still make all the time. Marv Wolfman doesn't understand why anyone would slab a comic. Neither does Jim Starlin. And, because no one bothers to educate them about it, over time, the idea that these are just "money making schemes" is totally reinforced in their minds. I sat at Marv Wolfman's dining room table in late 2015, trying to explain to him that people weren't just, in his words, "treating his signature like a trading card." I tried to explain to him that people wanted him to sign a copy because THAT BOOK means something to them, because they read it, and enjoyed it, and just want to collect it in a specific way. He couldn't process it. So, Marv Wolfman hasn't signed a single comic of mine since, even though he's one of the people responsible for me getting into comics in the first place. First Batman comic I ever picked up off the shelf? #437, Year 3, part 2, written by none other than Marv Wolfman. First back issue series I went after and completed? New Teen Titans (or Justice League; one of the two.) So, no, I don't think your contention that creators track the "value" of their signatures is true. I think they see morons listing things for hundreds or thousands of dollars more than they're actually worth, and that's it. They don't understand the collector market, and have no interest in doing so. They want to sell their NEXT project, not dwell on things they did in the 70s. And...as I have said many times before, in many places, collectors behave like addicts. Creators willingly and knowingly exploiting this behavior is tacky, at the very least. Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you SHOULD. And just so everyone's still on the same page: the issue isn't "charging exorbitant fees" and never has been. Creators are free, and should be free, to charge whatever amount they want for their signature. The issue is the difference in price they charge, based on their perception of where that signature is going. If Campbell is WILLING to sign anything for $20...and he is...and Wolfman is WILLING to sign anything for $5....and he is....then there's no valid reason why they should upcharge anyone because of what that person decides to do with their property. After all...despite the "arguments" of the functionally illiterate, the creator isn't doing anything different to justify the additional cost. Same effort, same signature, same time involved.

are you talking about Healthcare or University? Healthcare wise we didn't see any issues or service gaps during our years in Belgium (and we had a range of health needs and services provided, including surgery) University, I'd agree at the top level there is a difference (there are only a few European universities that match up to the top US universities), but mid-grade US universities (ie State universities) are pretty on par with European universities. The only catch is that US universities don't always recognize EU degrees (gee I wonder why, it's almost like there's a competitive and economic incentive to not!). Without getting into politics, one of the foundational principles of economics is that those who have an incentive to provide better quality will do so, while those who do not, will not, because they don't have to. There's no getting around that fact. Anything run by a bureau that has no incentive to be better will, necessarily, provide lower quality service at (usually much) higher prices. Not NO quality...but certainly lower, and often much lower, because of simple human nature. It's why competition is vital, and the lack of competition so destructive. Don't like how the DMV works...? Too bad; you have no other options. Don't like how the USPS works? Hey, you've got other options!

Quality is the difference.

Exactly...now you're feeling my vibe...."spec" sites trying to take advantage of dumb noobs....

So they can fleece people and part fools from their money...? I think it has more to do with integrity than jealousy.

It's alivvvvvve!!!

And the reason this situation exists is because Campbell has been convinced...quite inaccurately...by frauds (and they know who they are...some of them are reading this right now) who lie about the value of his signature, and misrepresent what the Sig Series actually is and does. "Oh, anyone doing Sig Series is making money off of your signature, and you DESERVE a cut of that." And, of course, creators have come to believe that people who do SS aren't "actually" fans, and are just doing it for the fat stacks of $$$. How do I know this? Because J. Scott Campbell told me so, to my face, in November of 2016. And why do people do this...? Why do they lie to creators like this? Self-interest. You see, they THEN tell these creators that they can "handle" their signings, and, while providing SOME legitimate service, they nevertheless use the lie to funnel some of that fee TO THEMSELVES, while their lackeys treat PAYING CUSTOMERS rudely and threaten to use their limited power to cut anyone off who dares so much as QUESTION their "program." And then they have the NERVE to openly complain about those who "lie to creators" about what people intend to do with their own property...a lie they facilitated (see what I did there?) by encouraging creators to demand to know what is none of their business in the first place. Is it right to lie to creators? Of course not. But is it right for creators to ask people what they intend to do with their property? Of course not! If creators didn't ask things that are none of their business in the first place, there would have been no incentive for people to lie in the first place. Again: lying, bad. But creating the incentive to lie? Just as bad. God only knows why CGC...an ENTIRELY UNRELATED THIRD PARTY THAT HAS NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH CREATORS...allows this House of Cards to exist in the first place. But, they have decided, for reasons entirely their own, that they "want to keep creators happy", and they think that kowtowing to creator demands...demands based on false information about the program...is the way to go, not realizing that they are losing a lot more in the long run than they are gaining. What they SHOULD have done was say, from the start, "we're a third party entity; whatever issues you have are between you and your customers. All we do is grade comic books." And that would have been that. Instead, we have the cluster that we have today, where this person charges that fee for that signature if it goes to this entity, but a different fee if it goes to that entity (none of which is any business of the creator in the first place), and this creator who won't sign "for CGC" this weekend, but can be coerced (with $$$$, of course) into signing "for CGC" the next weekend, and wait, it's $40 for his sig now? I thought it was $30! Oh, that was last week...? ...and everyone, mafia-style, gets their "cut", on the off-chance that someone might dare actually SELL a Sig Series book and (GASP!!) make some money off the deal. Nevermind, of course, that 90-99% of the value of every book is in 1. its status (New Mutants #98 or #92?) and 2. its condition. Campbell signing a piece of toilet paper doesn't make that toilet paper worth $$$. Campbell signing a 9.2 copy of Gen 13 limited series #4 does not make that slab worth $$$. Campbell signing a 9.8 copy of Danger Girl #2 Smoking Gun? Ok, now we're starting to see an effect...which Campbell has effectively neutralized by charging his punitive tax. And guess what happens because of that...? BOOKS DON'T GET SUBMITTED. Why not? Because it's frequently cheaper to buy the books already SSd from past signings...and guess what I get with that? Right: books already in the grade that I want. I have literal long boxes of books I would LOVE to get signed and slabbed...but won't, and haven't, for years and years and years now...because I won't pay more than I think it's worth. CGC doesn't make a dime on those books while they sit there. I'm not subbing them unless they get signed. So, they sit. And sit. And sit. And sit. Waiting for the opportunity that may never come. And now Bob Wiacek tells me he "has" to charge me $10...$10!!...for his signature if it's "for CGC", on my 9.6 X-Men vs. Alpha Flight #2 which isn't worth $10 even in the slab. Love you, Bob, but your signature isn't worth $10. And I'll find the copies, that some other sucker paid the punishment tax for, and it will already be graded, and I will pay less than it costs to get done, and I won't have to worry about the book not coming back in the grade I want. And CGC doesn't make money. And creators create ill-will with their actual, honest-to-God, real life fans. And collectors can't collect the way they'd like, because they are forced out of the market by punitive, discriminatory charges. And all because of a simple lie: "People who do Sig Series are making FAT STACKS OF $$$$ off you! You gotta get some of that, brah!"