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WOW!!

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Personally, I think that both Hulk 180 and 182 are a couple of the most over-valued and over-rated comics on the market. They're basically the only "cameo" appearances that are worth much anymore, and it's illogical that a 9.4 Hulk 180 should go for what you can probably buy an 8.0-8.5 Hulk 181 for.

 

And you can quote bizarro rarity figures all you want, it just makes no sense and works contrary to conventional market forces. To me, that makes 180 and 182 very risky buys if you're looking for a return.

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note also that the high bidder was bronzebruce13, who seems to take a 'money no object' view towards high grade bronze keys.

i also think that hulk 180 is hugely over-valued (wolverine appears in ONE panel) but bronzebruce13 and others seem to have a strange idea that it is actually under-valued as it is the first real appearance of wolverine.

check your copy of overstreet my friends and you will find 181 listed as the first appearance of wolverine, 180 & 182 are barely worth a mention!

 

 

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Perhaps you confused.gif should be checking your 2002 Overstreet Price Guide (assuming you own one)

 

From the 2002 Overstreet Price guide -

 

180 (10/74) 1st app.Wolverine (cameo last page)

181 (11/74) 1st full Wolverine Story

 

Nuff said

 

Phil

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Sure, but "cameos" have never been worth much, except in the case of this issue. I'm not saying the comic is worthless, but I really feel a very few people are driving the high-grade demand for Hulk 180 and 182. It also makes me laugh to hear someone refer to Hulk 180 as "undervalued" when it's really the other way around.

 

Personally, they can have them all, as I only collect Bronze Keys with FULL Appearances. It's really the only sane way to do things, or you'd be off chasing like PM/IF 78 (Sabretooth hidden, wearing a cowl), ASM 134 (Punisher cameo last panel - 2nd) and X-Men 201 (Cable as a baby).

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>> note also that the high bidder was bronzebruce13, who seems to take a 'money no object' view towards high grade bronze keys.

i also think that hulk 180 is hugely over-valued (wolverine appears in ONE panel) but bronzebruce13 and others seem to have a strange idea that it is actually under-valued as it is the first real appearance of wolverine.

check your copy of overstreet my friends and you will find 181 listed as the first appearance of wolverine, 180 & 182 are barely worth a mention! <<

 

My problem is the statement is BOLD. It is simply not true. Is the undervalued or overvalued ? It appears to be undervalued to BronzeBruce13. Others may feel differently. Back up your point with facts, not fabrication.

 

Phil

 

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the fact, einstein, is that hulk #180 is a CAMEO appearance of wolverine, have you even seen a copy of the book?

i, and many others (including overstreet) do not consider cameos to qualify as genuine first appearances of characters.

how many collectors do you see rushing to buy copies of ASM #299 as the first appearance of venom?

enough facts for you?

or would you like more examples of the numerous cameo appearances of characters that exist sitting in the 'i can't sell this' section of comic shop around the world ?

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You don't get it. I don't care if it was a cameo, 1st appearance or origin issue. You stated the following << check your copy of overstreet my friends and you will find 181 listed as the first appearance of wolverine, 180 & 182 are barely worth a mention! >> Is this correect ? NO !!! Stick with the facts.

 

Einstein

 

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the facts, in this case, have obviously gone straight over your head.

your persistant quoting of my earlier comment like a dog that won't leg go of a bone is, quite frankly annoying.

you have repeatedly asked me for facts which i have presented to illustrate my arguement, you dont seem to have an arguement you are just argueing.

if you want to argue and antagonise someone then go elsewhere, i am not interested.

 

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I think the original point being made was that $650 was too high a price for this book in 9.4. Another point being made is that no one thinks cameos are important. I would say look at the relative value of first cameo appearances of "key" characters against both (1) the first FULL appearance of the character and (2) surrounding "non key" issues. Looking at the latter first, it is CLEAR that the Cameo first appearance is always more highly sought after than surrounding non-key issues (meaning collectors do find it important, at least relatively speaking). Now lets move on the relative value against the first full appearance.

 

Since you (you being blowout) mentioned ASM 299 (compared to 300), I will use the same book for my analogy. Recent sales sales of ASM 299 in CGC 9.4 (very common for a modern book I might add) have been in a range of $30-$45. ASM 300 in 9.4 has sold for between $40-$60. The relative value is $22 and $75, respectively. Basically, the cameo is worth about 1/3 of the full appearance and is selling at only about 25 percent less. Looking at 9.6's, the price differential is about 50% between 299 and 300. 9.8's 300 have been selling for $400-$600 (I know big range but its true) and 299 in 9.8 go for between $150 and $200. Let's say 1/3 the value.

 

Based on the above analogy, Hulk 180 which guides for a mere 1/8 of 181 is GROSSLY UNDERVALUED. This is confirmed when you look at the myriad of sales that have occurred both on and off-line in the $750-$1100 range for a Hull 180. Granted the high end one's may have been a bit high but $650 is certainly on the very low end of that spectrum. The CGC price relationship between 180 and 181 is much more in line with the general collector's perception of the value of the books. With 181 9.4's going for close to $2K, 1/3 of that for a 180 seems about right.

 

Go through your guide and compare cameo first appearances to first full appearances and I think you will find the value to be about 3X for the first full appearance. Based on that, either 181 is WAY overvalued or 180 is WAY undervalued.

 

Just my thoughts.

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ok, i'll concede that cameos do have more value than regular issues, i may have been exagerating slightly with my original post.

although i never said that cameo appearances were worthless shocked.gif

thanks sully, for stating an opposing view in a well though out and referenced way.

unlike some posters i could mention frown.gif

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Yo sully, we all know that the 299 vs. 300 comparison is flawed because 299 is valuable because of the early/2nd McFarlane art and not only because of a Venom cameo. Pricing out relative values compared to Hulk 180 (no hot artist run starting there grin.gif ) is a bit off.

 

It's tough to make a valid comparison, since there are few (if any) corresponding appearances to Hulk 181. Any ideas?

 

Personally, I could care less if Hulk 180 goes for $10K in CGC 9.6. I think the issue's valuation is a joke (as I do for all cameos/last-panel apps), while obviously others do not.

 

 

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we all know that the 299 vs. 300 comparison is flawed because 299 is valuable because of the early/2nd McFarlane art...

 

I think the ASM #134/135 example is a good comparable from the perspective that there is no artist change between the two issues and there is only a 1-panel cameo (well, I think the Punisher actually has the whole last splash page in #134, but still...) BUT the major caveat is that ASM #135 is a book that sells for 1/10th the value of Hulk #181. I believe it is inherently flawed to apply a ratio or multiple for a low value book to a high value book. For example, sometimes you see a low Overstreet value book (like $3 or $4) sell for a 20x or 50x multiple in 9.6. You never see a 50x multiple for a $1,000 book, right?

 

So, to get a true comparable, you have to find a book with no creative team change, a 1-panel cameo, and have the key book be worth at least the high 3 figures, if not low 4-figures. I don't know of any such example, so really, this is just one case where the price is whatever someone will pay for it. My personal opinion is that #180 should sell for less than 33% of #181 and probably more like 20-25%. But that's just how much importance I personally place on the book.

 

Gene

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Wow! seems to be an appropriate title for this thread smirk.gif

 

I don't know where to begin...

 

MutantCollector:

 

The short answer, as much as we can try and assign definitive values on a not heavily traded collectible is ... "absolutely" in my more than average experiences buying and selling the book and that's why I nabbed it. It's one of my favorites as a collectible and as a speculative gamble as well. I've found it to be a great book to have a spare because it is easy to move when trading.

 

I guess CI will have to laugh at me because I do indeed consider it "undervalued" without a doubt. IMHO it should guide at closer to $250.

I know the guide is based on dealer sales so that might not make sense to some of you, but I have my doubts that enough true NM's copies have been sold for me to accept that number. (Dan, Flying Donut... have you handled/sold many true CGC level NM Hulk 180's in your years of dealing?)

 

Based on just the demand I have encountered for Hulk 180 in my private dealings indicates that it's undervalued and may not be meeting demand on a larger scale than just my experience. I know many unfulfilled Hulk collectors (particularly proud HG Hulk 181 owners) that are still looking for one (and 182's too, to a much lesser extent to complete the trilogy) and are willing to pay more than $650 even for a lesser page quality copy. A 9.4 White at $650 is certainly worth the price to me (not bad even with ow pages). I think the lack of a longer online sale history is why people really don't have a good idea on where to value it. There was a 9.4 oww that sold for $910 before the 3 recent copies and I was bidding on it as it was a very, very nicely centered book... (which is also hard to find this issue in, most are not cut well at all)... and I've seen many. Until the recent (4) 9.4's (3 of which sold in this cooling, crashed, down turning market) there were maybe only 3-4 others that I ever saw on Ebay in the nearly 3 years I've been looking for them... and I've had my eyes peeled.

 

When I got back into comics 3 years ago, obtaining a CGC 9.4 180 and 181 (and 182) were my top priority as Wolverine is my favorite character obviously. Getting the 181 was a snap, and the 182 didn't take long either... BUT I could not find a CGC 180 anywhere. I called every last dealer in the guide for a CGC or high grade ungraded copy and could not locate anything CGC'd and only ungraded "NM's" that all graded 9.0's at CGC. (I was a very frustrated 9.0 Hulk 180 guy for the longest time having had 5 copies return as such... ahhhh)

 

Hulk 180 is a simply a hard to find key (and yes I consider it a key) in 9.2 and above, probably for several reasons, here's a few ideas...

 

1. After 181 came out (which made noise obviously) and GS X-men 1 collectors focused on them and X-men, I think 180 was not recognized as being much and like many other unrecognized books to become keys later on (ex: Dracula 10, IM 55, MS 5, etc.) was not handled, treated, stored etc. with the same care as 181 and GS 1 were. It was probably in many quarter boxes and roughed up like a forum member who does not go along with the crowd.

 

2. A theory I maintain is... although it's a brighter cover with it's share of yellow, in IMHO, 180 is in essence a book that in part suffers the same fate as many "Dark Cover Books". Bear with me now... The "black shadow side" of the rock that Wendigo is breaking over Hulks back rests right along the center of the spine, between the 2 staples, but closer to the top one. If I'm not mistaken, this is an area where spine stress is more prevalent... correct? It's certainly not "dark cover-like" at the corners (although the bottom right has its share of black too.. just not right at the corner) but that spot on the spine is a tough place to have a stretch of black and expect a multitude of NM copies to survive. Consider how people rifle through a comic box and bend books slightly to see them... the pressure is often placed in that area... STRESS that jumps out at you against the black.

 

Anyway, I never paid all that much attention to the "cameo" designation... to me, if its early, close to, right next to the key and has the major force of interest, continued storyline, same respected artist run (whatever) contained within or associated with... I personally want to have it too! As a collector, I want to build off of the 1st full appearance... it's a natural progression in my view. Cameo my ... early relevant appearance whether it be... 1 panel jumping, 3 panels in shadow, mentioned in 5 panels and not shown, wearing a disguise and plotting... I don't care. I want it and so apparently do many others I associate with and/or sell to.

 

I hope that was not too much to read

 

NOTE... A 9.6 ow just sold on ComicLink for close to 2K in a matter of hours. My 9.2 W sold for $550 2 weeks ago.

There is a large underground (off-Ebay) network of buyers-sellers-traders and I'm aware (as are a few other forum members) of sales that dwarf the $650 figure as I was involved in a couple on both the buying and selling end. Another telling sign the book is in demand is... I find "Hulk 180 in 9.2 or better" on way more than half the want lists I'm presented with. Unfortunately, since most of my dealings and knowledge concerning the book have been private, I can't prove my claims here without effort and time so I won't go into details I can't verify quickly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Hey Lee,

 

Boy do I wish I had a "money is no object funding source" to go with that buying attitude I supposedly have grin.gif I know I go to the wall on some books, but I can be as cost conscious as the next guy on the filler, 2nd tier stuff and lesser keys.

 

What's funny is... what you don't see me buying, trading and selling privately dwarfs my Ebay purchases by far and funds my collecting entirely. I don't put one dime in to my buying anymore (for the last 6 months anyway). I have not posted an auction in over a year or so. I had to make my collecting self-contained, as my wife was close to kicking my for grabbing "house funds" to buy slabbed comics when she wants a new kitchen and a whole bunch of those useless, ugly catalog decorations.

I too enjoy some "booty" in addition to my comic addiction grin.gif

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