Problem with Qualified Grades and Signatures

[UnboxingTreasures]

Maybe it's just me, but something bothers me.

 

Several limited edition books, like Linsner's Dawn series, have signatures on the book. These are the only way these books come... so why do these kind of books get qualified grades?

 

I can understand it is to eliminate forged signatures, but if there is only one signature on the book, and it was released that way, why the stupid Qualified grade?

 

Maybe somebody can help explain to me why this happens.

 

Thanks,

Jay

[DoubleCovaBrotha]

To my knowledge of the Dawn series (which is not that extensive), I understand that all the books that come signed as a limited edition also have their unsigned counterparts. CGC at this point, does not have a signature authenticating service. So the only way to verify authenticity is to witness the actual signing of the book. It wouldn't be too difficult for a person to break the seal of a book, take the COA and forge the signature of another book. I am sure that is only one of many ways a person can try to run a scam.

[Lantern]

This question should probably be submitted to the Ask CGC forum a few forums down. But, seeing as it is here I will give it a go...

 

First, I think that it is due to verifiying the signature. How do any of us know that it is really Linsers signature on those books. For all we know there could be an assistant of Linsers signing half of the books to save time. Trust me on this, I have met some secretaries and assistants that could sign the "bosses" name just as well as the boss could. With the signature series a CGC rep actually saw the creator sign the book, so any question of its validity is removed.

 

Second, the Qualified grade is for books that have a single major defect. With my response to the first question in mind, think about how writing on the cover can affect a books overall grade, especially modern books. Now think about the size of a signature, in most cases that can be a really major defect. Would you rather that they just deduct the signature defect from the grade and receive a lower grade Blue label?

 

Just my thoughts on it

[Mushroom]

I think this has been discussed before....but....it irritates me that a CGC signature series autograph has the same amount of risk of being faked as a dynamic forces autograph. The only way to be sure is if you go and get it yourself. In terms of paying big bucks for it just because it is CGC'd doesn't wash with me.

 

Having said that....I have bought a couple of great books from Bob, Hedgehog. Thanks guys.

 

I love signed books and have quite a collection.....from a grading standpoint it is writing on the cover and from a structural standpoint should be treated the same as if I signed my name on it.

[DoubleCovaBrotha]

I think this has been discussed before....but....it irritates me that a CGC signature series autograph has the same amount of risk of being faked as a dynamic forces autograph. The only way to be sure is if you go and get it yourself. In terms of paying big bucks for it just because it is CGC'd doesn't wash with me.

 

I apologize, but I don't understand what you mean by this statement. How can a Signature Series autograph be faked? I can see how a Dynamic Forces autograph can be faked (with some difficulty of course), but with people witnessing the signing, a census, and a tamper proof case among other things, I am not sure what you mean.

[Mushroom]

Aaaah I see, so some clever CGC person back at the office couldn't use an autopen, grade it, slab it and then sell it.

[AlexH]

Aaaah I see, so some clever CGC person back at the office couldn't use an autopen, grade it, slab it and then sell it.

 

I thought CGC employees couldn't sell slabbed books.

 

 

[Kevin Boyd]

 

Aaaah I see, so some clever CGC person back at the office couldn't use an autopen, grade it, slab it and then sell it.

 

That makes total sense... in wackyland!

 

Of course, they have hours and hours of free time at CGC to sit around faking autographs to deceive fans. And it makes complete sense for them to do it, especially considering that they don't actually submit or sell the books themselves, just the grading service.

 

They thought it would be a great idea to completely blow their reputation and years of hard work establishing their products and services by "faking" signatures.

 

Surely you can come up with better conspiracy theories than that.

 

Kev

 

 

[Kevin Boyd]

 

I thought CGC employees couldn't sell slabbed books.

 

They can't. They can't even sell UNGRADED books without special permission from the top brass..

 

Kev

[Mushroom]

You are missing the point totally. You say CGC's rep would be at stake....why would it be different for Dynamic Forces.

 

What I am saying is that it doesn't matter who says it is real or what safeguards you may have....unless you see it in person you can never be certain.

 

Given that.....why pay 5x as much for something from CGC rather than DF or American Entertainment.

[Mushroom]

I thought CGC employees couldn't sell slabbed books.

 

They can't. They can't even sell UNGRADED books without special permission from the top brass..

 

Kev

 

I thought people couldn't steal from their employers. This is whacky....crime gets committed every day or are you wanting me to believe that CGC isn't at risk of unscrupulous behaviour by disgruntled or opportunistic employees.

 

IF YOU DON"T SEE IT SIGNED YOU CANNOT KNOW THAT IT TRULY WAS and that is the fact jack.

[Kevin Boyd]

 

You are missing the point totally. You say CGC's rep would be at stake....why would it be different for Dynamic Forces.

 

You just accused CGC of forging signatures which is simply not possible, regardless of what you may think because the book goes from the artist's hands directly to CGC's and they have no legitimate reason to forge a signature on a book. The book is sealed in a tamper-proof case the buyer can't fiddle with the book - if that case is tampered with, then all bets are off.

 

Let's not forget that with CGC's signature series you are also getting the grading service, which is most of the cost involved.

 

I'm sure that Dynamic Forces books are legitimate signatures, at least they are when you buy them directly from Dynamic Forces, but since you can open the bag pretty easily and take the book out then there's no guarantee that the signnature is valid. It's taking it on faith.

 

For some that's no problem, for others faith is a pretty hard pill to swallow.

 

Kev

 

[Kevin Boyd]

Time to take another MUSHROOM.

 

Now you are accusing CGC of having disgruntled, opportunistic employees.

 

You are truly inspired today! Brilliant. Rant away..

 

Kev

 

 

[Solar]

Back to the first question, I think a book that is ALWAYS in a signed state should be given a universal grade for this reason; it doesnt matter if the signature is authentic or not, the name scrawled on the book is something done in production, by the company.

 

For example, Valiant put out the Valiant Validated Signature Series in the early 90's. These were signed books, issued from the factory, and bearing an embossment that was only present on those books, thereby separating them from any possible secondary market fakes. These books should not be qualified as the publisher produced them. I'm not asking CGC to verify the signature, just to not knock the book down to qualified status for something that is as original and integral to that book as the printer's ink or the staples.

[Shield]

I thought CGC employees couldn't sell slabbed books.

 

They can't. They can't even sell UNGRADED books without special permission from the top brass..

 

Kev

 

Actually, I think they can sell books graded 1.0 or lower; I've bought a few of them from a CGC employee. They were usually coverless or just really thrased stuff...!

[Mushroom]

Time to take another MUSHROOM.

 

Now you are accusing CGC of having disgruntled, opportunistic employees.

 

You are truly inspired today! Brilliant. Rant away..

 

Kev

 

 

Kev...what can I say. I didn't accuse CGC of forgery. What I said was, that it could happen. Just like every other authenticated process. To deny that would be sticking your head in the sand.

 

 

[Kevin Boyd]

That would be nice, and you should ask them to consider changing their policies, however the rules are very consistant and clear.

 

Signature on a high grade book - Qualified.

Signature on a lower grade book - Universal

Signature done in front of a CGC witness - Signature Series.

 

Has CGC graded any of the Valiant Validated Signature books to date? Maybe they do consider them acceptable for the Universal label because of the unique embossing - I don't know that they don't.

 

But logic and consistancy would make me think that they would give it a qualified with a note that it is a Validated signature book. Essentially saying that it's up to the buyer to decide whether or not they consider it a valid signature or not.

 

Kev

[Kevin Boyd]

Mark Haspel had to get special permission from the owners to sell those coverless and poor quality books.

 

Kev

[Kevin Boyd]

 

I don't need to stick my head in the sand, you've made it quite clear that you don't trust the service and why.

 

Whether you are implying or inferring, accusing or merely suggesting that there is impropriety going on... you are still condemning the service without knowing for sure how the damn thing even works.

 

Kev

[Mushroom]

it irritates me that a CGC signature series autograph has the same amount of risk of being faked as a dynamic forces autograph. The only way to be sure is if you go and get it yourself. In terms of paying big bucks for it just because it is CGC'd doesn't wash with me.

 

Kev....you probably failed comprehension at school. Please note the original post, I stated that CGC signature has the same amount of risk as DF. I did not state that CGC was or will fake signatures.

 

I cannot justify in my own mind why, given that risk is on a par between the two organisations, I would have to pay 5 or 10x more for CGC. It is a PERSONAL gripe and view.

 

Please read carefully in future.