VALPARAISO SPIDEY 55 9.8................SOLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[fantastic_four]

When professional grading was established by PCGS (Professional Coin Grading Service) in 1986, it was established with the requirement that all member dealers would accept PCGS slabbed coins at the grade given, sight unseen.

 

What exactly does this mean? That you can't dispute grades with the grading company? Or that dealers can't complain about grades or ask for pictures, which makes no sense?

[RockMyAmadeus]

When professional grading was established by PCGS (Professional Coin Grading Service) in 1986, it was established with the requirement that all member dealers would accept PCGS slabbed coins at the grade given, sight unseen.

 

What exactly does this mean? That you can't dispute grades with the grading company? Or that dealers can't complain about grades or ask for pictures, which makes no sense?

 

That's exactly what it meant. Member-dealers of PCGS HAD to accept coins in PCGS slabs sight unseen. Remember, this was 1986, nearly a decade before the internet became common enough to "share photos" easily.

 

That was what PCGS felt was necessary to legitimize the concept of graded coins, and on the whole, they were right, and nearly everyone accepted it.

[trmoore54]

Didn't somebody comment awhile back that drdonaldblake starts threads and then never ONCE revisits them...well add this to the list...

[Silver]

Of all the ridiculous sales we have seen recently, to me this is the craziest.

[fantastic_four]

That's exactly what it meant. Member-dealers of PCGS HAD to accept coins in PCGS slabs sight unseen. Remember, this was 1986, nearly a decade before the internet became common enough to "share photos" easily.

 

That was what PCGS felt was necessary to legitimize the concept of graded coins, and on the whole, they were right, and nearly everyone accepted it.

 

Yea I remember that 256-color VGA wasn't big until a year or two after that to make scans viable at all, but I would've had to see a camera photo before paying any kind of price like what this ASM 55 CGC 9.8 went for--those were certainly common in the auction catalogs. I don't get why they'd even make such a provision--sounds entirely unenforcable. And also backwards, since it's not dealers who would be the primary buyers of the slabs, it would be customers.

 

Why would they do this? Did they have any way to enforce it at all? What, if one dealer asked for a photo from another, they'd ban him from submitting or something dumb?

[trmoore54]

Of all the ridiculous sales we have seen recently, to me this is the craziest.

 

I have a new theory...std logic and generally holds pretty true until you get to 9.8 but everything doubles from 9.0 to 9.4 and then doubles again from 9.4 to 9.6 to 9.8...thus, in this case, ASM 55...

 

9.0 $150

9.2 $300

9.4 $600

9.6 $1800

9.8 $5400

 

So that is the jumping-off point...$5400...how do you possibly get to $16500...$10K is already outlandish...

 

Are bigtimers like DS and TB trying to manipulate the market and create artificial values...who effing knows...DS could've cut a deal to put this in TB's hands for $6K or $8K or whatever and agreed to post the price as we know it...

 

yaknow what, I don't trust any of these sales...as far as I'm concerned all of these conspirators are in cahoots and look for any opportunity to manipulate the market...did anyone ever read The Bonfire of the Vanities whereby the top Arbs of Wall Street coined themselves the Masters of the Universe and even collected the toy figurines as symbols...that is this...

 

Give me a f*@&ing break...wherever serious money shows up corruption is sure to follow...I could be overly cynical...just re-read Vonnegut's Cat's Cradle yesterday... out

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

That's exactly what it meant. Member-dealers of PCGS HAD to accept coins in PCGS slabs sight unseen. Remember, this was 1986, nearly a decade before the internet became common enough to "share photos" easily.

 

That was what PCGS felt was necessary to legitimize the concept of graded coins, and on the whole, they were right, and nearly everyone accepted it.

 

Yea I remember that 256-color VGA wasn't big until a year or two after that to make scans viable at all, but I would've had to see a camera photo before paying any kind of price like what this ASM 55 CGC 9.8 went for--those were certainly common in the auction catalogs. I don't get why they'd even make such a provision--sounds entirely unenforcable. And also backwards, since it's not dealers who would be the primary buyers of the slabs, it would be customers.

 

That's because you're looking at it from a CGC-oriented, graded-collectibles-have-been-around-for-a-generation perspective.

 

Unenforceable? Not at all. Who do you think was sending in the coins to be graded? Collectors? No, no, no! Dealers were the ones sending these in (just like in the early days of CGC) and PCGS would have had no qualms with cutting dealers off who didn't abide by this.The requirement was that PCGS member-dealers had to accept the grade given if they were going to PURCHASE the coin, either from a collector or another dealer or auction house.

 

In other words, a dealer couldn't sell a customer a coin at PCGS MS65, and then, when the customer came back to sell to him, the dealer would then claim "oh, this is only an AU50."

 

You have to understand that that was the FOUNDATION for why PCGS existed: that everyone involved agreed, beforehand, upfront, to accept PCGS slabs as graded. Without that, the company would never have been launched in the first place.

 

And "everyone involved" included all the biggest names in the business, including auction houses like Sothebys, and old, old dealers like Stack's. It was a gentlemen's agreement in the absolute sense of the phrase. It worked because PCGS was staffed by some of the most respected names in the industry, and they actually graded very tightly (they had to, or the experiment would have failed.)

 

As well...coins are a far more....how shall I put this...respectable, mature field than, say, other types of hobbies. The kinds of shenanigans that have gone on by some of the "most respected" in comics would and have never been pulled by the most respected names in coins. The people involved with PCGS made absolutely sure that they were, at least initially, entirely above reproach.

 

Why would they do this? Did they have any way to enforce it at all? What, if one dealer asked for a photo from another, they'd ban him from submitting or something dumb?

 

Camera photos? Totally impractical.

 

"numisphotography" as it is called today was not a developed niche back in the 80's. Even if one did take pictures and, what, send them through the mail...?, they were not of sufficient quality, usually, to determine grades.

 

 

[NewWorldOrder]

I am sure for the final price compared to that horrible looking 9.8, I would rather have this bad boy.

 

[Hedge Collector]

Of all the ridiculous sales we have seen recently, to me this is the craziest.

 

Are bigtimers like DS and TB trying to manipulate the market and create artificial values...who effing knows...DS could've cut a deal to put this in TB's hands for $6K or $8K or whatever and agreed to post the price as we know it...

 

That is scary.

 

This whole consignment/CGC/ultra-high grade now has a stench if this is true.

 

Unfortuneately, it's not hard to believe. I am not agreeing with you on any of these questions but after some thought, strangely I believe something like this will inevitably happen.

 

There is just too much money to be made now in these books. Someone like DS, I'm not saying him exactly but perhaps someone in his position, who has a huge collection of ultra-high grades and also happens to be an auctioneer looking for consignment clients would have so much to gain that it almost outweighs any risk.

[COI]

Call me crazy, or a pleb, but I'd take this one for $213. I know it's low grade, but I can deal with it.

 

[namisgr]

I think that this transaction is a "one-off" and has no impact on the market. It will not alter substantially the valuation of ASM #55 copies in lesser conditions. The sales of top census SA Marvels like this comic at seemingly astronomical prices are to a very small number of buyers (not always Tommie B., by the way). A very small buyer pool does not make a market.

 

These sales are kinda like traffic accidents: they bring out lots of gawkers (me included), but ultimately don't affect the day-to-day.

[ChasingKingKirby]

Just to add fuel to the fire, I pulled out my trusty Overstreet Grading Guide. Under "Cover Creases" it states quite clearly "NONE ALLOWED" in 9.8 and above. Now I realize that CGC does not state their grading standards, but let's not throw overstreet into this when the grading guide clearly states that cover creases are not allowed. I also looked at all examples that they had and NONE of them had spine creases of any kind.

 

Point of order....when Overstreet is talking about cover creases, they do NOT mean spine stress/creases.

 

How do you know exactly? Just curious. And if that's the case, why do NONE of the examples of a 9.8 have any spine tics?

[Foolkiller]

Just to add fuel to the fire, I pulled out my trusty Overstreet Grading Guide. Under "Cover Creases" it states quite clearly "NONE ALLOWED" in 9.8 and above. Now I realize that CGC does not state their grading standards, but let's not throw overstreet into this when the grading guide clearly states that cover creases are not allowed. I also looked at all examples that they had and NONE of them had spine creases of any kind.

 

Point of order....when Overstreet is talking about cover creases, they do NOT mean spine stress/creases.

 

How do you know exactly? Just curious. And if that's the case, why do NONE of the examples of a 9.8 have any spine tics?

 

Actually, plenty of 9.8s I've seen have a spine tic or two sometimes.

[fantastic_four]

I think that this transaction is a "one-off" and has no impact on the market.

 

It's not a one-off, but you're right, it won't seriously impact the market, except to continue the trend that has already been going on for the last 6-18 months, which is impact, just not a major one. It also sounds like conspiracy theory that it was some kind of deliberate manipulation. It's possible, but it would have to be someone orchestrating the manipulation across multiple sales on multiple sites.

 

Are we forgetting some of the insane prices paid of late on all the consignment sites? Let's say this was a DS --> TB transaction--DS would have to know that there's a handful of guys besides the usual suspects paying insano amounts for top-Census copies right now. If he sold this straight to TB, they'd both have to accept that the price you pay right now for a copy to not hit the open market is higher than it has been in the past, hence the high price.

[VintageComics]

Of all the ridiculous sales we have seen recently, to me this is the craziest.

 

Are bigtimers like DS and TB trying to manipulate the market and create artificial values...who effing knows...DS could've cut a deal to put this in TB's hands for $6K or $8K or whatever and agreed to post the price as we know it...

 

That is scary.

 

This whole consignment/CGC/ultra-high grade now has a stench if this is true.

 

Unfortuneately, it's not hard to believe. I am not agreeing with you on any of these questions but after some thought, strangely I believe something like this will inevitably happen.

 

There is just too much money to be made now in these books. Someone like DS, I'm not saying him exactly but perhaps someone in his position, who has a huge collection of ultra-high grades and also happens to be an auctioneer looking for consignment clients would have so much to gain that it almost outweighs any risk.

 

Those are pretty lofty accusations there gents.

[VintageComics]

Are we forgetting some of the insane prices paid of late on all the consignment sites? Let's say this was a DS --> TB transaction--DS would have to know that there's a handful of guys besides the usual suspects paying insano amounts for top-Census copies right now. If he sold this straight to TB, they'd both have to accept that the price you pay right now for a copy to not hit the open market is higher than it has been in the past, hence the high price.

 

You got it. Being exclusive ain't cheap.

 

I know that buyers will always pay well to have a shot at the best so that they alone can have the rights to it.

 

That goes for almost anything, not just comics.

 

I work in the automotive industry. When the new 500 SL 230 body came out it was a $100K car. People were paying up to double that. $200,000, for a $100,000 car that would be worth 2/3 that as soon as they drove it off the lot.

 

Can you image losing the price of a small home simply to be the first to own it?

 

It happens all the time and it happens everywhere.

 

Worth is not the same as cost to those that can afford it.

 

 

[ChasingKingKirby]

Just to add fuel to the fire, I pulled out my trusty Overstreet Grading Guide. Under "Cover Creases" it states quite clearly "NONE ALLOWED" in 9.8 and above. Now I realize that CGC does not state their grading standards, but let's not throw overstreet into this when the grading guide clearly states that cover creases are not allowed. I also looked at all examples that they had and NONE of them had spine creases of any kind.

 

Point of order....when Overstreet is talking about cover creases, they do NOT mean spine stress/creases.

 

How do you know exactly? Just curious. And if that's the case, why do NONE of the examples of a 9.8 have any spine tics?

 

Actually, plenty of 9.8s I've seen have a spine tic or two sometimes.

 

From CGC, who does not publish their grading criteria... I'm referring to the examples within the overstreet grading guide.

[VintageComics]

Just to add fuel to the fire, I pulled out my trusty Overstreet Grading Guide. Under "Cover Creases" it states quite clearly "NONE ALLOWED" in 9.8 and above. Now I realize that CGC does not state their grading standards, but let's not throw overstreet into this when the grading guide clearly states that cover creases are not allowed. I also looked at all examples that they had and NONE of them had spine creases of any kind.

 

Point of order....when Overstreet is talking about cover creases, they do NOT mean spine stress/creases.

 

How do you know exactly? Just curious. And if that's the case, why do NONE of the examples of a 9.8 have any spine tics?

 

Actually, plenty of 9.8s I've seen have a spine tic or two sometimes.

 

From CGC, who does not publish their grading criteria...

 

They do grade VERY closely to Overstreet Standards though.

 

There is a chart in the Overstreet grading guide that can be used with reasonable accuracy when assessing grades. Nothing is bulletproof but it will cover MOST cases.

 

R.

 

[ChasingKingKirby]

Just to add fuel to the fire, I pulled out my trusty Overstreet Grading Guide. Under "Cover Creases" it states quite clearly "NONE ALLOWED" in 9.8 and above. Now I realize that CGC does not state their grading standards, but let's not throw overstreet into this when the grading guide clearly states that cover creases are not allowed. I also looked at all examples that they had and NONE of them had spine creases of any kind.

 

Point of order....when Overstreet is talking about cover creases, they do NOT mean spine stress/creases.

 

How do you know exactly? Just curious. And if that's the case, why do NONE of the examples of a 9.8 have any spine tics?

 

Actually, plenty of 9.8s I've seen have a spine tic or two sometimes.

 

From CGC, who does not publish their grading criteria...

 

They do grade VERY closely to Overstreet Standards though.

 

There is a chart in the Overstreet grading guide that can be used with reasonable accuracy when assessing grades. Nothing is bulletproof but it will cover MOST cases.

 

R.

 

Except spine tics apparently...

[VintageComics]

Not really. I'm not talking about the picture portion of the grading guide. I'm talking about an article at the beginning. Basically there is a chart and a graph. The chart tells you how many defects and how large those defects can be in each grade. The graph plots out visually how many defects per grade are allowed.

 

If you look at the graph you are allowd 1-2 defects in 9.8. By cross referencing the chart you can see that these defects can be up to 1/8" in length. Since a spine tic is a defect you would be allowed one according to this chart.

 

I would think that the reason that CGC does not publish their grading criteria is because they don't want every oen of us calling and arguing the grades they assigned. They just couldn't run a viable business that way.

 

I think the pages below are very very close to representing how CGC grades a book with common defects, notwistanding specific or special cases.