Ogami's Shadow Gallery!

[Ogami]

445) On gender:

 

Paul said, "There is in each of us an ancient force that takes and ancient force that gives. A man finds little difficulty facing that place within himself where the taking force dwells, but it's almost impossible for him to see into the giving force without changing into something other than man. For a woman, the situation is reversed."

 

"These things are so ancient within us that they're ground into each separate cell of our bodies. We're shaped by such forces..."

 

"And you, my son?" Jessica asked, "are you one who gives or one who takes?"

 

"I'm at the fulcrum," he said. "I cannot give without taking and I cannot take without..." He broke off, looking to the wall at his right.

 

(Paul sees his own sacrificial death)

[Ogami]

461) The Emperor speaking:

 

"...The Sardaukur forced to retreat in confusion from women and children and old men."

 

 

466) Paul cannot be measured by normal human standards (nor can Alia nor can Leto II):

 

"He was warrior and mystic, ogre and saint, the fox and the innocent, chivalrous, ruthless, less than a god, more than a man. There is no measuring Muad Dib's motives by ordinary standards. In the moment of his triumph, he saw the death prepared for him, yet he accepted the treachery. Can you say he did this out of a sense of justice? Whose justice, then? Remember, we speak now of the Muad Dib who ordered battle drums made from his enemies skins, the Muad Dib who denied the conventions of his ducal past with a wave of his hand, saying merely, "I am the Kwisatz Haderach. That is reason enough."

 

(I like how Dune foretells his death in Messiah- gutsy storytelling)

 

469) In that instant, Paul saw how Stilgar had been transformed from the Fremen naib to a creature of the Lisan al Gaib, a receptacle for awe and obedience. It was a lessoning of the man, and Paul felt the ghost wind of the jihad in it. I have seen a friend become a worshipper, he thought.

[Ogami]

470) "How would you like to live billions upon billions of lives?" Paul asked. "There's a fabric of legends for you! Think of all those experiences, the wisdom they'd bring. But wisdom tempers love, doesn't it? And it puts new shape on hate. How can you tell what's ruthless unless you've plumbed the depths of both cruelty and kindness? You should fear me, Mother. I am the Kwisatz Haderach."

 

476/7) What Paul did, he did for humanity. (From an evolutionary perspective)

 

481) "Is this religious prattle?" Gurney insisted.

"Be silent," Jessica whispered. "And pray."

 

HA!

 

482) Here was the unborn jihad, he knew. Here was the race consciousness that he had known once was his terrible purpose. Here was reason enough for a Kwisatz Haderach or a Lisan al-Gaib or even the halting schemes of the Bene Gesserit. The race of humans had felt its own dormancy, sensed itself grown stale and knew now only the need to experience turmoil in which the genes would mingle and the strong new mixtures survive. All humans were alive as an unconscious single organism in this moment, experiencing a kind of sexual heat that could override any barrier.

 

 

 

I feel pretty confident in my assessment of Paul's motives and the consistency of his actions from WITHIN his worldview- a naturalistic, atheistic future where humanity is all that matters, not the individual. The story of Dune plays out on a planetary scale and any romance of the individual is brought about existentially for the individual BY the individual, not the society at large.

[Ogami]

487) Fenrig the never was.

 

488) The old Truthsayer, The Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam, had her own view of the hidden meaning in Paul's words now. She glimpsed the jihad and said, "You cannot loose these people upon the universe!"

 

"You will think back to the gentle ways of the Sardukar!" Paul snapped.

 

 

[Ogami]

489) "Think on it, Chani: that princess will have the name, yet she'll live as less than a concubine- never to know a moment of tenderness from the man to whom she's bound. While we, Chani, we who carry the name of concubine- history will call us wives."

 

 

 

There's love and romance enough in these books, if you but look.

 

 

And so concludes my copious notes on Dune!

[Jeffro.]

Given that I'm going to be reading Dune soon, should I be ignoring this?

[Ogami]

 

Yes.

[TupennyConan]

Herbert's constant mention of coffee!

 

Melange

 

[TupennyConan]

309) Contrary to Tup's vicious lies about Paul, Paul never wanted planetary jihad. This is one of many such passages.

 

"Paul hearing these words, realized that he had plunged once more into the abyss...blind time. There was no past occupying the future in his mind...except...except...he could still sense the green and black Atreides banner waving...somewhere ahead...still see the jihad's bloody swords and fanatic legions. It will not be, he told himself. I cannot let it be."

 

My friend. He saw the future. Scorned it. Feared it. Then lead it. The jihad that is.

 

He's a murdering, brainwashing tyrant.

[TupennyConan]

Paul sat silently in the darkness, a single stark thought dominating his awareness: "My mother is my enemy. She does not know it, but she is. She is bringing the jihad (HAHA, TUP!). She bore me; she trained me. She is my enemy."

 

Yes, he's a victim. lol

 

Oh poor victim of eternity, Emperor Paul!

 

lol

[TupennyConan]

433) On sonship love and husband love to the same woman:

 

"One of the most terrible moments in a boy's life," Paul said, "is when he discovers his father and mother are human beings who share a love that he can never quite taste. It's a loss, an awakening to the fact that the world is there and here and we are in it alone. The moment carries its own truth; you can't evade it."

 

This, like the entire novel, is beautiful.

[TupennyConan]

482) Here was the unborn jihad, he knew. Here was the race consciousness that he had known once was his terrible purpose. Here was reason enough for a Kwisatz Haderach or a Lisan al-Gaib or even the halting schemes of the Bene Gesserit. The race of humans had felt its own dormancy, sensed itself grown stale and knew now only the need to experience turmoil in which the genes would mingle and the strong new mixtures survive. All humans were alive as an unconscious single organism in this moment, experiencing a kind of sexual heat that could override any barrier.

 

 

I feel pretty confident in my assessment of Paul's motives and the consistency of his actions from WITHIN his worldview- a naturalistic, atheistic future where humanity is all that matters, not the individual. The story of Dune plays out on a planetary scale and any romance of the individual is brought about existentially for the individual BY the individual, not the society at large.

 

Are you saying that Paul is some sort of force of nature a la Galactus? That we should hold him or measure him by such a standard?

 

Is he like a virus coming in to infect the universe & swap genetic code with its inhabitants so as to spur on their species wide development?

[TupennyConan]

Are you saying he lacks all agency, all free will, & is a device of the cosmos?

[TupennyConan]

 

Who is to blame for the Fremen jihad?

 

Paul

 

The Fremen

[TupennyConan]

I cannot see Paul the same way that Tup sees him. I see him as a necessary organ intended to free humanity from its slumber, its laziness, its dependence on hierarchy and drugs. For an atheist, this is all there is, and humanity is an organ where the individual isn't as important as the organism.

 

And while I don't hold to this worldview myself, at least Herbert is consistent and he gives reasonable motivations to why these humans act the way they do. They all seek, in their own way, consciously or not, the perpetuation of the species.

 

[TupennyConan]

488) The old Truthsayer, The Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam, had her own view of the hidden meaning in Paul's words now. She glimpsed the jihad and said, "You cannot loose these people upon the universe!"

 

"You will think back to the gentle ways of the Sardukar!" Paul snapped.

 

Petulant child god!

[TupennyConan]

I am well into Children, & in my mind, this is all just one long novel. Herbert's enchantment is surreal & hypnotic. His style is dreamlike & cerebral, languid & elegant. Beautiful, smart writing.

[Ogami]

There's really no point in replying to the individual replies of yours. (Do you know how long it took me to look up and transpose each of those quotes? )

 

Suffice to say,

 

1. You and I do not see Paul the same way at all. (Wait till you get to Leto!)

 

2. I would love you to read all 8 at this point (the 6 by Frank and the final 2 by his son and a co-author, working from his father's notes) to see the cycle completed and see if your opinions on Paul change at all.

 

3. I was strictly using the material from Dune to make my case while you were using arguments from the first three novels.

 

4. I still say Herbert is internally consistent and that within this naturalistic future human civilization, Paul is within reason to do what he did. And even driven beyond his own desires to do so. There is very much a sense of humanity as organism in these novels to me.

[Ditch Fahrenheit]

482) Here was the unborn jihad, he knew. Here was the race consciousness that he had known once was his terrible purpose. Here was reason enough for a Kwisatz Haderach or a Lisan al-Gaib or even the halting schemes of the Bene Gesserit. The race of humans had felt its own dormancy, sensed itself grown stale and knew now only the need to experience turmoil in which the genes would mingle and the strong new mixtures survive. All humans were alive as an unconscious single organism in this moment, experiencing a kind of sexual heat that could override any barrier.

 

 

I feel pretty confident in my assessment of Paul's motives and the consistency of his actions from WITHIN his worldview- a naturalistic, atheistic future where humanity is all that matters, not the individual. The story of Dune plays out on a planetary scale and any romance of the individual is brought about existentially for the individual BY the individual, not the society at large.

 

Are you saying that Paul is some sort of force of nature a la Galactus? That we should hold him or measure him such a standard?

 

Is he like a virus coming in to infect the universe & swap genetic code with its inhabitants so as to spurn on their species wide development?

 

I have a slightly different view. I think Herbert was going for something much more familiar.

 

Under the constraints of the quoted passage, Paul IS the Messiah, the vessel of a higher power, saving humanity from itself, and wrestling with the immensity of that burden.

 

One can almost hear him saying, "the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."

 

And the ultimate spreading of his consciousness completes the trinity archetype of power, conduit and permeation.

[Ditch Fahrenheit]

And even driven beyond his own desires to do so.

 

Yes.