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Adventure Comics #40 CGC 9.2

66 posts in this topic

Timely;

 

My point exactly! Placing a purple label on unrestored "so-called lower grade" books will devestate their prices even though they may actually be high grade unrestored 9.2 books. The colour of the label makes ALL THE DIFFERENCE IN THE WORLD when it comes to pricing.

 

Collectors who are willing to spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars on a comic book should be intelligent and responsible enough to read a condition grade or restoration rating and decide on their own. You shouldn't need CGC to hold up colour flash cards and wave them in front of your face in order for you to think.

 

I just pity the poor buyer who is colour blind.

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I've Bought MANY "Plod's" over the Last 3 Years on eBay, and a few Green Labels. In My opinion, I've gotten, on almost every one, a GREAT Deal. But Say over the last 6 Months, I've noticed that Many books (Especially Low Grade Keys) are Going for Close to Guide, or every once in awhile GUIDE!! It used to be a Real Shopper's Paradise on these books, BUT No More. You still can get some at a Price you can live with, But the Bargains are NOT out there Like they used to Be.... Someone said the Adventure #40 had been up a few times, what did it close at Last time??

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It guides at about $50,000 in 9.2. Do you think it will go for less then $30,000?

 

I do not know what this book ended at when it has been up for sale before, and I know very little about the market for this book.. but I would GUESS the seller's reserve on this book will be at least $50,000-$60,000 if not more.

 

 

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I will try and get it at 1/2 of guide, wish me luck. I do not collect comics and always wanted to start so hopefully I can win it at a reasonable price.

 

893whatthe.gif You never thought of starting out with something cheaper, maybe ?

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I wanted a high grade All-Star 8 but when I seen this book there was something about it that really caught my eye. I am a big fan of the whole 20's-30's mob scene and this cover reminded me a little of that. If I don't get if for under $30,000 then I don't think I will be buying it.

 

OK, that makes sense. Best test the water a little first, eh ?

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you really think so?

Restoration was already out of favor when CGC started slabbing them purple. Its just a visual clue so you know right away that the book has had work, which for most of us, is a red signal shouting "dont buy". Everyone blames the LABEL when its the RESTORATION itself that lowers the value.

 

thumbsup2.gif

 

Very true, people are just mad at nickels for not being dimes 893whatthe.gif

 

That being said, properly and/or slightly restored comics don't get the respect they deserve in the market place. There is nothing wrong with it as long as there is full disclosure, done right, and it is priced correctly.

 

 

I agree that restoration was already out of favor prior to the birth of CGC. Restored books have always sold at a discount to guide, but never to the extent that they have been since CGC started branding them with their purple labels. It was only at this point that they took the deep plunge which they have still not recover from.

 

Yes, the restoration is part of the problem. The use of colour labels only serves to magify the problem. Speculators and investors use the CGC label colour as the mark of acceptability when they should be paying more attention to the restoration notes. This is why blue label GA books with minor restoration will still sell for multiples of guide while purple label GA books with minor restoration will sell only at a deep discount to guide. In this case, the colour of the label makes all the difference in the world since both books are still exhibiting minor amounts of restoration.

 

Steve, you just have to look at yourself in the mirror. The use of colour labels is the number one reason why restored books don't get the respect which they use to have, and why they have sunk to such a low level in today's marketplace. A one colour label system with a restoration rating is a much more fairer system and will let the marketplace instead of CGC to determine the acceptability of individual restored books. I can see it from your end in that it would be nothing but problems and open a whole new can of worms similar to the current high end grading disputes.

 

One final point to people who think that the problem is restoration and has nothing to do with the colour of the label. Imagine a new CGC grading system whereby all books graded lower than 9.4 are given a purple label to denote that they are lower than near mint. This should make posters like Aman happy because CGC is providing a visual clue and raising a obvious red flag on out of favour non-NM books without buyers having to worry about reading the grade. I will bet my entire comic collection that this will result in an immediate drop in price for all purple label < 9.4 books even though their grades have not changed. The only thing that changed was the colour of the label. IMHO

 

 

I agree with Lou whole-heartedly. As I understand it, the main impetus for CGC was to perform restoration check that buyers and sellers could rely on. The grading number is also important, but less so, since at a store or a convention a buyer can form his/her own opinion of a book, and in an age of scanners and digital images even remote transactions can be conducted with a degree of confidence as to what the book will look like. (I will ignore for the moment the effect of unscrupulous sellers who provide misleading scans, for there are also unscrupulous sellers who replace books in CGC holders). Detecting restoration, however, is an uneven playing field that CGC has levelled. Entering such an environment, I understand why CGC felt it appropriate not only to state that a book was restored but to provide a visual cue as well.

 

But however well-intentioned the motive, the reality - whether or not foreseeable by CGC when they started out - is that the PLOD has taken considerable value out of the market. Yes, restored books were out of favor before CGC, and yes, Blue Label books did rise in value as many market players were and (to a lesser extent these days) are willing to pay for the privilege of certainty. But far more value was taken out of books that have restoration, i.e. such books sell for far less with the PLOD than they would have pre-CGC with full disclosure by a seller. The problem is particularly acute in the Golden Age market, were the percentage of books that have undergone restoration or conservation is the highest. An additional problem for Golden Age collectors is that books are now going unconserved, as economically-conscious collectors - and what collector isn't economically conscious? - prefer to have, say, the spine of a book chip away than support it and, when the kids go to college and it comes time to slab and sell, have the book earn a PLOD. True, if you don't take the book out of the slab the spine won't continue to chip away, but that means we're condemned to never hold and read our cherished collectibles. (I would have thought CGC would prefer that people remove books after purchase so that they will need to be reslabbed before resale). And even if you like your books in the slab, what's the point in discouraging people from, say, washing a cover to remove a mildew stain? Ernie Gerber, in his introduction to the Photo-Journals, considered this the type of conservation work something that should ENHANCE a book's value, and be encouraged. I'm not saying that CGC should not note that a book was cleaned. Nor can I tell people not to be willing to pay for such a book. But the PLOD in such a case seems gratuitous, and even baneful.

 

And, if Steve's listening, here's the real kicker. Soon enough, all attractive GA books will have been slabbed. Books that sellers know are restored will not be sent in, and books that have received the PLOD will, like the Batman 1 9.0 with WHITE Pages and Slight (P) sold by Mastronet in December for the Guide VG value, continue to languish in worth. Wouldn't CGC, collectors in this generation and those that follow, and the owners of restored, conserved, or restorable or conservable books, all benefit by adopting Lou's suggestion? Moreover, would holders of unrestored books be in any way compromised, i.e. would their books decline in value as a result of moving to a unified labelling system? Maybe slightly, but probably not much. I think this is a win-win proposition for just about everyone - except for those of us who enjoy paying 1/3 of Guide for attractive keys that have a "small amount of glue on spine" but don't own an electron microscope strong enough to actually appreciate the work.

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very convincing arguments by all three of you. I do not buy books with any restoration, but I can see now how the purple blue and green label system, while conceived merely as a source of information delivery, has affected the comics market as a whole. A single color label system with an added restoration factor would conver the same info, but treat ALL books on the same level. And be closer to what we had before with th eadded plus that the restoration would always be professionately disclosed where it wasnt before.

 

I didnt agree with the challenge that labelling all books graded lower than 9.4 purple was a fair analogy....but, mostly because of the unrealistically high cutoff point. There would have to be a uniformity as to what the cutoff was between "collectible grade" and uncollectible low grade and 9.4 just leaves too few books above the line.

 

- - -BUT - - I understand the semantics of the question and the cutoff isnt the point being made.

 

So Steve, any way to rectify the damage caused going forward w/o affecting CGC negatively (financially)?

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Why is up to CGC to "rectify" or "correct" what goes on in the marketplace at this moment in time? Isn't it up to the marketplace to determine what values are of certain books?

You said, point blank, you do not buy restored books. And many collectors currently do not buy resto as well. Won't even look at them. If they were in a blue label, but restored, now you're going to buy them? And many other collectors would start buying and bidding them up as well? Do you really think that this would be the case and that all it took was a lousy color change on the label? Please don't tell me these collectors that refuse to buy restored books feel this way because they don't like the "purple look" of the label. These collectors refuse to buy restored books because they're RESTORED.

Bottom line is the market dictates values of certain books, period. If you think the decline in restored books is overdone, that their values are getting unfairly hammered out there, and they're getting no respect and are worth more than they are transacting for right now, then what you're saying is you believe it's a great time to add some of them to your collection. But I think it's crazy to blame the color of a label for the downturn in their values. Blame the market. Just like me and you, collectors currently want and prefer unrestored, undoctored books. That is why restored books are selling at a steep discount, no other reason. And can you blame them???

 

Stagedoorjohnny flowerred.gif

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no no no. Im not saying I will buy them or want them. Im just agreeing that the CGC label has contributed to a further decline in their values. perhaps further than warranted. I disagreed back when Sotheby's was pushing it hard that restored books should INCREASE their values and it was working (to dealers' advantages)...and now I see that it has over-depressed their value.

 

Either way, I will not be buying them.

 

The multi colored labels were "neat idea". They would tell us stuff at a glance. Like packaging and marketing: red is ultra strength, blue medium and green lite. If I were working at CGC I would have suggested it. One label color would be, well BORING.

 

But the purple and green labels have taken on a life of their own BEYOND the intentions of CGC. On elabel color with a numerical grade and a restoration suffux would put u sback to the sydtem pre-CGC but with standardized grades (well, thats the goal anyway!) and with restoration check.

 

9.4 with no suffix or an empty "restoration box" is unrestored

9.4 with "sm color touch on spine" in the box says it all.

 

To me, its still an unwise purchase. But the stigma that somehow the book is a different species with a different label is removed

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Why is up to CGC to "rectify" or "correct" what goes on in the marketplace at this moment in time? Isn't it up to the marketplace to determine what values are of certain books?

You said, point blank, you do not buy restored books. And many collectors currently do not buy resto as well. Won't even look at them. If they were in a blue label, but restored, now you're going to buy them? And many other collectors would start buying and bidding them up as well? Do you really think that this would be the case and that all it took was a lousy color change on the label? Please don't tell me these collectors that refuse to buy restored books feel this way because they don't like the "purple look" of the label. These collectors refuse to buy restored books because they're RESTORED.

Bottom line is the market dictates values of certain books, period. If you think the decline in restored books is overdone, that their values are getting unfairly hammered out there, and they're getting no respect and are worth more than they are transacting for right now, then what you're saying is you believe it's a great time to add some of them to your collection. But I think it's crazy to blame the color of a label for the downturn in their values. Blame the market. Just like me and you, collectors currently want and prefer unrestored, undoctored books. That is why restored books are selling at a steep discount, no other reason. And can you blame them???

 

Stagedoorjohnny flowerred.gif

 

The contention that the restoration/conservation alone, and not the label color, affect the value is belied by several facts. One is the precipitous drop in value experienced by conserved and restored books since CGC's inception. Indeed, even books that pre-CGC would not have been penalized much if at all - books with certain professional work that CGC deems Slight - have been thrown out with the bathwater. I cannot see how a book that was fully disclosed by its seller as restored would lose value once placed in a CGC holder providing the same information - unless the scarlet (or, more accurately, purple) letter is to blame. Second is inordinate price differentials between Blue Label books that say "minor color touch" or "minor glue" over PLOD books that say "very small amount of color touch" or "very small amount of glue". The price differential between such books its often greater than the price differential between Slight (P) and Extensive (P)! Nothing but the label color explains that phenomenon. The third proof was provided by someone on another thread: Say you have a book in 8.0. Someone attempts a slight color touch improvement. If they do it well, the book might earn an 8.5 Slight (P) or Slight (A). But if they, say, botch the job by using a blue pen on a red area, the small mark on the cover might bring the book down to a Universal 7.5. Of course, the botched job 7.5 will be worth more in the current market - likely more than double - than Slight (P). How can we explain this but for the existence of the PLOD?

 

 

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Good points. I also believe a huge factor in the steep "relative" decline of restored books is that CGC and the internet combined have brought a lot of real nice unrestored books out of the vaults and made them available to the public. There have been so many great unrestored books for sale, why buy one that has work? Consequently, those unrestored have risen significantly in value further increasing the disparity between restored and unrestored values. And you can make the argument that this disparity is justified. One piece of information I would love to know on each restored book that is not provided is what was the grade of the book before restoration? That, to me, is as important as the actual work done.

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Here is a PM I just sent to Steve B. If you agree now is the time to speak up. Send him a PM to stike this idea home.

 

 

Hi Steve,

 

There has been a LOT of negative feedback recently regarding the Purple and Green labels to note the Restored and Qualified books. Check out the Adventure #40 thread in the GA section.

 

I have a great idea on this topic, below is a copy of what I wrote in that thread. I think it really makes sense for CGC, dealers and collectors. Dealers WILL NOT submit books to you that they know/think will get the PLOD or GLOD, so you are loosing out on those submissions. Collectors are loosing out too. The restored books either sit in the purple holders (not getting a second look do to the stigma attached to the PLOD) or they sit in their mylars unsold and ungraded. Many collectors that would actually buy a restored book may not want to buy one that sits in the mylar because they do not know the amount of work done to the book, so yet again the restored book get passed up. So here is my proposal..

 

 

 

"Due to the new larger size of CGC's numberical grades on the labels where they are easily readable, instead of DIFFERENT color labels CGC could have one (blue) label. The label could look like this...

 

Example

9.4

9.4Q

9.4R

 

Then in the "notes" area CGC can put the qulaifiers and restoration notes.

 

I'll tell you one thing. I have 192 Timely's all CGC'd 8.0 and better. 2 are restored and 2 are qualified. Those 4 books stand out like sore thumbs.

 

I feel you are correct when you say the PLOD AND GLOD have taken on a life of their own, far more than CGC originally intended. Those books sit DEAD in their holders. No more discrimination CGC, please! Let our restored and qualified books look just as nice as our universal ones!

 

Timely"

 

Let me know what you think, I do not see any drawbacks to this idea Steve. Years ago you had different colored labels for Modern books and that bad idea was eventually resinded, it's time to do the same for the rest. Make all the labels the same color.

Regards,

 

 

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I'm leaning back and forth on this issue now.

 

Last post I stated that the purple labels should be ended for a system like the one you now propose. But heraing it, theres an obvious problem: How is a big (or small) Q or R after the numerical grade any different than a purple label?

 

Both are graphic devices to alert the buyer that the book has work. The only difference is the PLOD is MORE noticible. SO in tis new system, buyers would shun the LQOD (the Letter Q Of Death). Its stilla "scarlet A" situation. I would suggest no purple, an dno Q or R after the grade, but rather bring back notes an dinclude resto info in the notes.... but that only hides the info ...

 

So - - Since CGC allows certain VERY MINOR amounts of work on certain books to get a blue (unrestored) label, how about this: create a new tweener category, Books with only such minute amounts of ct or glue that CGC now labels tham unrestored will be grouped with neither the purples or blues. BUT CGC categorically states that in THEIR EXPERT OPINION, that these special few books should be exempt from the stigma of restoration. This is what they ARE saying now,by giving them blue labels, isnt it?? ,

 

CGC wont even have to come out and state what the rules are. They will still be able to "call em as they see em!"

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Timely;

 

I hope your PM to Steve B results in a satisfactory response from him on this very important subject matter. This topic has been bought up before without a definitive response back from CGC.

 

I feel your proposal is a step in the right direction in that it will result in a unified labelling system. I feel, however, that if the hobby is to make a change in this very important area, it should use this opportunity to go all the way and do it properly. I feel there are three important factors to consider when evaluating a comic book. The first is the condition grade of the book, the second is the page quality, and the third is the type and extent of restoration on the book, if any. I feel that CGC has implemented a system which has adequately addressed the first two factors. When it comes to the controversial area of restoration, however, CGC has lacked the tenacity and political will to address the issue fully, leaving us with the current wishy washy system.

 

When CGC first started a few years ago, GA colectors saw this as an opportunity to finally INFORM and EDUCATE the collector base with respect to the touchy area of restoration. As a result of the lack of committment from all parties to fully address this issue, however, I feel we have been left with a system which has only serve to INFORM and MISEDUCATE the marketplace with respect to the issue of restoration. Nobody wants to pay any attention to the actual details of restoration anymore, with the issue simply being dumbed down to the mindless choice between blue and purple.

 

Jon Berk, a long-time GA collector, wrote an excellent article on the inside back cover of the September 2001 issue of CBM #85 advocating an 10 point restoration system ranging from R-0 to R-10 based upon type and degree of restoration. I strongly support his proposal and feel that this would add a level of sophistication and integrity to finally address this controversial issue and benefit the hobby in the long run. This whole issue was to have been addressed in the 2002 edition of the OS Grading Guide as a number of collectors were initially contacted to elicit their expression of interest in participating in a forum on restoration for the upcoming grading guide. I assume an unfortunate decision must have been made somewhere to avoid this controversial area since no subsequent follow-up was done after the initial contact. In my point of view, a big missed opportunity for the hobby to take another step forward.

 

This issue of restoration is too big and important for CGC to address on thier own. As Jon Berk stated in his article, a public discussion or forum is needed which would include the major players within the industry. This would include not only CGC, but also major dealers such as Fishler, Blazing Bob, etc; major collectors such as Jon Berk, Timely, etc; along with power players such as Geppi and Overstreet to add a level of validity and integrity to the entire process.

 

I believe the hobby and the marketplace is not only ready to take this next step, but mature enough to demand and expect it from the powers that be. Since the current system allows us to clearly differentiate between condition grades such as VF 8.0 from NM 9.4 and page quality such as white from cream, it should also allow us to differentiate between restoration ratings such as R-2 and R-6. All it needs is guidelines and parameters deliniating and assigning demerit points for various types and degrees of restoration. The current system unfortunately forces us to view minor restoration such as pressing or a microdot of colour touch in the SAME PURPLE LIGHT as major restoration such as trimming, pieces added, or repair.

 

That's about enough of my point of view on the topic of restoration. Anybody else with an opinion to share with the rest of the forum.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Once again, I think Lou's suggestion is an excellent one. With regard to the 10 point system for grading restoration, I have not read the CBG article that he mentions but I note that Matt Nelson makes a similar proposal in his article in the 2003 Overstreet Comic Book Grading Guide.

 

To refine matters a bit further, perhaps comics could be assigned three numerical measurements: the grade, the OWL and the restoration. A comic book grade would read something like "G-8.5/OWL-8/R-2." That may seem like a mouthful, but it's still succinct enough to fit on the edge sticker of a CGC case and, more importantly, on a comic book listing in a catalog or on a website. Such a system would likely serve to alleviate both the fetishization of slight differences in overall grade, while highlighting the massive differences between an R-9 and an R-1, something a uniform has PLOD blurred. Once the three measurements gain currency in the market, the ungainly alphabetic prefixes can probably be dropped, yielding a grade of, say, 8.5/8/2, which will be understood by interested parties much as the market for 36/24/36s understands what those numbers reflect. Of course, the CGC fine print would explain the three grades for the benefit of the uninitiated.

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I think a 10 point resto scale would be a good idea as well. IMHO a 10 point scale would give me a better idea of what I'm getting when purchasing a restored book than the current slight/moderate/extensive scale does. My More Fun #52 would be a prime example in this case. When I originally submitted the book it graded an unrestored 1.0 Fair. I called CGC and asked to speak with one of the graders that looked at my book and I inquired as to what resto level I could expect in the event that I was to have it restored and I was told that it would probably be right at the moderate/extensive line. My book should be completed within the next week and I will most likely be resubmitting it. If it's really on the borderline of moderate and extensive it's almost like a coin flip that could mean huge money in the event that I decided to sell the book in the future. A F/VF with moderate resto would probably command substantially more than a F/VF with extensive restoration. If there was a 10 point scale, I might be looking at a F/VF with a 5 resto rating versus a F/VF with a 6 resto rating. Basically what I'm trying to say is that a 10 point scale would allow for people selling restored books to get a more accurate price on their book in relation to the extent of the work. 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

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The only problem with this whole R1-10 scale is the meaning behind it. What's the difference between a R1 and R2? Also, Is CGC qualified enough to grade out restoration? Slight/Moderate/Extensive is basic and easy to catagorize. I can forsee problems occuring if CGC now has 10 different levels to choose from.

 

Also...

Would R1 be the best or worst? In grading a 10.0 is the best, so would an R10 mean NO restoration? Or does R10 mean extensive-to-the-max restoration?

 

Timely

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The only problem with this whole R1-10 scale is the meaning behind it. What's the difference between a R1 and R2? Also, Is CGC qualified enough to grade out restoration? Slight/Moderate/Extensive is basic and easy to catagorize. I can forsee problems occuring if CGC now has 10 different levels to choose from.

 

Also...

Would R1 be the best or worst? In grading a 10.0 is the best, so would an R10 mean NO restoration? Or does R10 mean extensive-to-the-max restoration?

 

Timely

 

Timely;

 

The original proposal as outlined in issue #85 of the CBM called for a rating of R-0 for unrestored books. Restored books would then ranged from a low of R-1 to a max of R-10. A forum was to be established between major dealers, major collectors, CGC, and the Overstreet gang to clearly delineate what TYPE of restoration and what DEGREE of restoration would be acceptable for each R-x level.

 

I agree that there may be controversies for individual books as to whether it has been correctly classified as a R-3 or as a R-4 by CGC. You will always get controversies when a book is sitting on the borderline, similar to the above poster's situation where his book is sitting on the borderline between moderate and extensive. The current system for condition grading is filled with these same controversies as collectors dispute whether a book should be 8.5 or 9.0, or in the case of Modern books whether it should be a 9.8 or a 9.9. These controversies does not mean that we should back away from the problem and try to resolve it through a general broadening or simplification of the grading system. If we do, we'll simply end up with categories of Good, Fine, and Mint again which I feel would be nothing more than a big step backwards to 1970 when the first guide came out.

 

I feel that the 10-point restoration rating system would formalize this important indicator and add a degree of legitimancy to the entire process.

 

 

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