Adventure Comics #40 CGC 9.2

[Timely]

Well, I would be all for it, as long as CGC quantifes each level so we know what the heck we are getting. I doubt CGC would do that though, based on their reluctance to do it for their grading scale.

 

Timely

[AllTop8Me]

I don't think that CGC's (in)ability to quantify the degree of restoration is nearly as critical and its willingness to put its reputation on the line in doing so. Matt Nelson and others have put forward detailed proposals on how to score the extent of restoration and based on such proposals, yes, it would be possible to distinguish an R-1 from an R-2. But such a system would require CGC's restoration expert to keep of a detailed scorecard of the type outlined in Matt's article or one like the PCE restoration scorecard that othes have posted. The more detail CGC is required to note, the more potential for error or omission. The current scheme, in which CGC notes that "restoration includes" (implying that it may not be limited to), coupled with the amorphous boundaries between Slight and Moderate, and Moderate and Extensive, provide CGC with wiggle room that it (or its lawyers) may be reluctant to give up. It will be interesting to see whether competitors, who thus far have confined themselves to providing less service for less money - at least judging from market perceptions - may eventually challenge CGC on the other flank, by providing more detailed restoration detection services.

[Aman619]

My More Fun #52 would be a prime example in this case. When I originally submitted the book it graded an unrestored 1.0 Fair.

 

Doug, I can see why you are thinking this way. But, in actuality, you still have only a fair 1.0 comic that cost xx$ to make it "look" like a FVF. Why should the comic now be worth more than the fair price plus the money you spent on enhancing its appearance? Still the same book underneath to me.

[localshop]

How would the currently green labelled books fit into this proposed 10 point restoration scheme? Would you just now state what the grade of the book actually is now with the defect, and a note to explain why that is? To do so would seriously affect, for example, books signed on the cover that were not seen by CGC.

 

It would open up another can of worms IMO.

[Aman619]

Ive never understood the green labels ...!

 

[lou_fine]

Ive never understood the green labels ...!

 

I am in perfect agreement with you here. I've never understood the rationale behind the use of the green label. From my point of view, the defect should simply be factored into the grade with the book given the universal blue label.

 

On the other hand, I've also never given it much thought since I don't tend to see that many green label books.

[Timely]

Here's an example of the GLOD at work. I submitted an Amazing Spider-man #238. It got GLOD 9.4 (INCOMPLETE, TATTOOS MISSING). The comic was NM but since the tattoos inserted in the centerfold area were removed (comic itself was still complete) it got the GLOD.

 

I asked Steve about it and he said it was considered incomplete and would be a .5, 1.0 or something like that in the Blue label.

 

Timely

[localshop]

You would have to work 'Qualified' books into your revised label system somehow though. As CGC initiated this particular convention, at least from my impression of the history of it, it would be chaos to abandon it now. However, if you use three codes to designate the book, namely, grade/page color/restoration, your only recourse would be to lower the grade for the example that Timely mentioned. I would suggest a four code system, but I cannot think of a plausible means to designate, well, 'greeness', or degree of 'Qualified'! Also, if they are taking the alphas off the labels to make it more straightfoward, do you honestly think that they are going to agree to a four code system?!?

[Timely]

Greeness? What are you thinking?

 

Putting a Q after the numberical grade and listing the Qualifier on the label is all that's required, just as they do now. The only change on the new lablel would be removing the GLOD and put a Q next to the grade, then in the notes section of the label put (as an example):

 

QUALIFIED: 1st page missing.

 

Simple, easy, direct. What more could anyone ask?

 

Timely

[PovertyRow]

Also, if they are taking the alphas off the labels to make it more straightfoward, do you honestly think that they are going to agree to a four code system?!?

 

Only if enough people contact them and say "What is this 'Q' thing? Does it mean Quirky?" the way enough people contacted CGC and said the minus sign in NM- seemed too negative and was causing confusion, so they dumped the alpha.

[Bullet123]

the reason that this book will not do particularly well at auction (relative to a blue label) has nothing to do with the purple label!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It has to do with the fact that high end collectors like to know when they drop 50k-100k on a single comic book, that someday should their tastes or wifes change and they need to sell the book, there is a market for it. Plain and simple plod stands for I am a dealer and I am not buying that book at any price. If the dealer community will not support restored books why should the collecting community People keep referiing to the better results for unslabbed restored books than the plod . Please cite one example in the last three years at auction or ebay where a High grade unslabbed high$ book sold for a multiple or even guide price. The old days of selling unslabbed high grade high $ books is over People want some reasonable facsimile of liquidity in their collecting habits. No one that collects expects to turn a profit or at least get their money back when they sell, but they find comfort in knowing that they could

[stagedoorjohnny]

That about sums it up and closes the door on this thread for me. Bullet, I couldn't have said it better myself. Just curious to all you proponents for changing the label color, how many restored books have you purchased for your collection and why so few if they are being unfairly "labelled" and bashed in the marketplace? When the resto label color changes back to blue, are you going to buy that book you refused to buy two years ago when it had that dreaded purple suit on? Even though it still has the same color touch, same tears sealed, and the same pieces added?

 

 

Stagedoorjohnny

[localshop]

Greeness? What are you thinking?

 

I was tired, and I did put it in quote marks

 

It just seems to me that putting everything on one label will make that label more complicated and will just confuse the customer base. I also believe that changing the color of the label will not remove the stigma of a restored book which has built up over the past few years. Maybe it would in the long term, but that process will not happen overnight.

[AllTop8Me]

Please cite one example in the last three years at auction or ebay where a High grade unslabbed high$ book sold for a multiple or even guide price.

 

http://apps.heritagecomics.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=802&Lot_No=6477&src=pr&sid=35B0875CC95F6CEE59C42FB7FD5171EC

 

And it's not even high grade. It's of course impossible to know what this book would have commanded with the PLOD, but my sense is that so many collectors are desparate for it that even if it's restored, so long as you don't throw the PLOD in their face like a vial of contaminated chicken feces, they're willing to bid it up above Guide.

[Bullet123]

Wow! 1 book out the the approximately 45,000+ GA auctions that have occured on EBAY Heritage Comiclink etc over the last three years . I do not really consider a VF- to be a high grade book especially when you are talking about a highly collectible cover that is impossible to find in any grade. Does anyone have anything else to add?

[AllTop8Me]

Wow! 1 book out the the approximately 45,000+ GA auctions that have occured on EBAY Heritage Comiclink etc over the last three years . I do not really consider a VF- to be a high grade book especially when you are talking about a highly collectible cover that is impossible to find in any grade. Does anyone have anything else to add?

 

Actually, it was a F-, not a VF-, so the fact that it traded at a multiple of Guide is even more impressive. But you're right, a single example does not a principle make.

 

More substantively. I don't have time to do an exhaustive search, but I can say this. Auction houses such as Heritage and Sotheby's and Mastronet have a strong incentive to sell slabbed books so that they can sell to "remote" purchasers without having to later argue about inadequate disclosure. Since they receive only a fraction of each dollar that a book sells for, while they would like books to sell for top dollar, they have an especial incentive to maintain their reputations, even if that shortchanges sellers and, to a lesser extent, them. But if you look to true sellers such as Metropolis, while they have some PLODs on their site, they have plenty of unslabbed high $$ books for which they simply provide their own, highly objective assessment of the restoration. The day of unslabbed high end books is thus alive, at least in New York. I don't know what their method is for determining when to slab and when not, but I suspect that they don't send in books that they know will get the PLOD, because they know it will reduce the value, but that if they receive books that have a PLOD - either through inadvertant submission or through purchase in the market - they feel it would look bad if they pulled the book out of the holder and word got out into the marketplace that that was their practice. This is pure speculation, and I would love if Steve or Vince would chime in on this subject.

[Bullet123]

Maybe I am an anomoly, but my ratio of books bot from dealers directly vs the auction sites is about 20/1 in favor of the auctions. Why? because the auctions right now anyway are getting the great books and the dealers are not. When I go to a show, 90+% of the GA books there are unslabbed, regardless of value. Why? IMO, it is still the dealers hoping to find the guy who will spend thousands of dollars on unslabbed books. NEWS FLASH! Instead of trying to decieve the next potential customer to walk through your door, why not try something honest for a change. Submit your restored books, let them get a purple label and then develop a market for the books by being willing to buy and sell them at a price. WOW imagine a world where purple labels traded as often as blue labels just at different prices! Nirvana is not that far off

[AllTop8Me]

Maybe I am an anomoly, but my ratio of books bot from dealers directly vs the auction sites is about 20/1 in favor of the auctions. Why? because the auctions right now anyway are getting the great books and the dealers are not. When I go to a show, 90+% of the GA books there are unslabbed, regardless of value. Why? IMO, it is still the dealers hoping to find the guy who will spend thousands of dollars on unslabbed books. NEWS FLASH! Instead of trying to decieve the next potential customer to walk through your door, why not try something honest for a change. Submit your restored books, let them get a purple label and then develop a market for the books by being willing to buy and sell them at a price. WOW imagine a world where purple labels traded as often as blue labels just at different prices! Nirvana is not that far off

 

I applaud your suggestion, and wish that it would both come to fruition and result in the intended market correction. But until that happy day comes to pass, what has been said on this thread remains true: The PLOD makes a book less valuable than it would be unslabbed with full disclosure from the seller. This is even true for Slightly restored books that, of course, come with the added risk that there is more restoration than what the seller disclosed. Therefore, sellers who are not eager to sell but are looking for top dollar do not slab their restored books, high end or low end. Sellers who sell books in the PLOD do so not because so doing gains them top dollar, but because they don't want post-sale disputes with the buyer. This is true both of auction houses and of individuals selling over EBay who are either concerned about Feedback or simply want the book sold and to be done with it. Some PLODs are sold by people who acquire PLOD books - through inadvertant submission or in the secondary market - and feel it would be deceptive (or are afraid potential customers would view it as deceptive) to remove the books from the holder and sell them unslabbed with full disclosure. The current state of affairs earns fewer submission fees for CGC and takes value out of the market. I do not believe it serves to add value back into the market in the form of premiums paid for Blue Label books, at least not significantly. The solution, as proposed by Lou above, is to grade a book, like shapely a woman, on three key metrics. in this case, overall grade, page color and restoration. So doing provides maximum information and would remove the stigma of the PLOD, at least to some extent. The all or nothing nature of the PLOD, as has been demonstrated on this thread, is the source of the problem. Convincing CGC (or a competitor) to adopt the new system, difficult as that may be, is likely a better route to ameliorating the problem than screaming at people to trade in PLODs.

[Aman619]

Theres one cleaner solution: CGC should just give ALL comics with even the slightest "restoration" the purple label. That way, there will be many more PLOD comics around and bargain hunters and collectors who wont or cant pay for UNrestored copies will have plenty to choose from, all equally labeled. Also, since some of the questionable (and charitable) calls CGC has made for those lucky few Blue-labelled books with work will also now be Purple, buyers will know that there are a few minimally restored gems to seek out in the Purple Pile making it worthwhile looking at these formerly "leper colony" comics.

[Doug014-migration]

Theres one cleaner solution: CGC should just give ALL comics with even the slightest "restoration" the purple label. That way, there will be many more PLOD comics around and bargain hunters and collectors who wont or cant pay for UNrestored copies will have plenty to choose from, all equally labeled.

 

Anything that equals more bargains sounds like a winner to me!!