And people wonder why folks get a little bit peeved...

[awe4one]

Full disclosure should apply.

 

That's all I'm asking...

 

Why you need to continue to shift the responsibility to the buyer is really a tangent concern. Sure a buyer needs to be vigilant but not at the expense of the delaer not being honest upfront...

 

Jim

 

You want disclosure. You're not getting disclosure. You can either take steps to gain that disclosure, or you can just talk about wanting disclosure.

 

What's more likely to get the end result that you desire?

 

Calling out those that don't is one avenue. I've dione that here and gotten skewered for the attempt.

 

Reading your posts it seems like you're content that dealers don't disclose unless confronted.

 

Jim

[Monstro]

Again, that's why I think the anti-pressing crowd live in the theoretical. Your complaint is that dealers aren't proactively disclosing

 

I'm anti-pressing and have never believed that disclosure was sufficient, not when thousands and thousands of books have been and are being pressed (again, remember when the pro-pressing crowd kept insisting that it would always remain a costly and limited phenomenon? What a joke that was) and actively exchanged between numerous parties. Fast forward 5-10 years and these books will have changed hands so many times, through so many venues, that the line of disclosure will inevitably have been broken on a huge number of books.

 

I was once a big slab collector (I still own probably 200-300 of them) and thought I might one day get back into it, but the hobby is dead to me now. Those of us who admire books that have earned their CGC grades by withstanding the ravages of time and ownership can already hardly distinguish those books from those that have been manipulated with any degree of certainty, and it will only become more and more difficult going forward.

 

Unless one is willing to accept manipulated books as being the equivalent of books in their natural state (i.e., ignorance is bliss, if it looks like a 9.8, it is a 9.8 no matter how it got there), there is no more place in the HG slabbed hobby for people like us. It's like Leonard Cohen sang when I saw him at MSG the other week - everybody knows the war is over, everybody knows the good guys lost...

 

Perfectly stated.

 

 

[Flaming_Telepath]

Can whether you personally have had a book pressed be proactively disclosed?

 

Always, and it's been requested time and again by many people.

 

See the difference? \(shrug\)

 

But they only seem to make that request in pressing threads. They never seem to ask the dealers themselves about particular books in their inventory, which would be the most productive avenue, wouldn't it?

 

No.

 

Because if 'proactive disclosure' was being practiced, they wouldn't need to ask, would they?

 

Why isn't it incumbent on the buyer to be educated? Caveat Emptor applies everywhere but, apparently, when buying comics. Why does the simple act of asking the seller if a book has been pressed (if you care) seem to be such a big deal?

 

If you buy a car, do you not ask questions about the car? Why wouldn't the same actions apply when buying comics? If you don't want to buy a pressed book, ask the dealer if it has been pressed. If the answer is anything other than "no", don't buy it.

Can I see the Carfax please

 

EXACTLY. And if the car dealer hems and haws, YOU DON'T BUY THE CAR. Why can't anyone understand that the same premise applies here?

 

Why does it? Because you say so?

 

Why can't the same standards as drink & cigarettes apply? Full disclosure on the pack?

 

Because you say it shouldn't?

 

Because the buyer isn't a sheep.

 

Full disclosure should apply. But what you're saying is "Caveat Emptor", which applies to every other transaction in the world doesn't apply to comics.

 

Do I want pressed books? No. Do I care if others press them? Not really, because I ask, and I don't get the answer I want, I don't buy the book. Any educated customer of ANYTHING should ask a question to get the knowledge they want, no matter what the vendor says or does.

 

So, it's OK to sell a book with known colour-touch without disclosure? Because that level of disclosure/honesty applies 'to every other transaction in the world'?

 

Did I miss something?

 

When did CGC begin to equate color touch with pressing? Because last time I checked, one of those things were considered restoration (and therefore given a special label), and one was not.

 

CGC can only determine what they consider to be restoration.

 

Doesn't mean it's so.

 

Many people do consider it resto. Until pressure was brought to bear, Overstreet considered it resto. Professional restorers/conservators in paper also consider it resto. The dictionary considers it resto.

 

Just because expedience, convenience and cash-flow dictated that CGC buck the trend doesn't mean it's suddenly not restoration.

[seanfingh]

[

Are you even interested in discussing this seriously?

 

Not with you. You've made three things clear. (1) You have no idea what damage is being done as a result of pressing. (2) You have no intention of discussing the level of damage that MIGHT be done to books in light of things that are quantifiable (poor storage, books exposed to excessive heat in very small time spans). (3) All you really want to do is make sure that "Pressing is Resto!" is shouted from the rooftops. Enjoy your crusade.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Again, that's why I think the anti-pressing crowd live in the theoretical. Your complaint is that dealers aren't proactively disclosing

 

I'm anti-pressing and have never believed that disclosure was sufficient, not when thousands and thousands of books have been and are being pressed (again, remember when the pro-pressing crowd kept insisting that it would always remain a costly and limited phenomenon? What a joke that was) and actively exchanged between numerous parties. Fast forward 5-10 years and these books will have changed hands so many times, through so many venues, that the line of disclosure will inevitably have been broken on a huge number of books.

 

I was once a big slab collector (I still own probably 200-300 of them) and thought I might one day get back into it, but the hobby is dead to me now. Those of us who admire books that have earned their CGC grades by withstanding the ravages of time and ownership can already hardly distinguish those books from those that have been manipulated with any degree of certainty, and it will only become more and more difficult going forward.

 

Unless one is willing to accept manipulated books as being the equivalent of books in their natural state (i.e., ignorance is bliss, if it looks like a 9.8, it is a 9.8 no matter how it got there), there is no more place in the HG slabbed hobby for people like us. It's like Leonard Cohen sang when I saw him at MSG the other week - everybody knows the war is over, everybody knows the good guys lost...

 

Great post Gene (thumbs u

[Monstro]

You shouldn't ever smoke, because even that one cigarette might shorten your lifespan by a completely undeterminable length of time.

 

You shouldn't ever eat a double cheeseburger, because it might shorten your lifespan by a completely undeterminable length of time.

 

You shouldn't ever press a comic, because the damage the process does will shorten its lifespan by a completely undeterminable length of time.

 

See, without specifics....it just doesn't mean anything to me.

Smoking does cause damage to your body.

fact

 

Eating a double cheeseburger is unhealthy.

fact

 

Pressing a comic does damage it.

fact

 

Even without specifics...these facts are very important to me.

 

Tell you what, Domo, just for argument's sake, let's say that you're right.

 

Now what?

Good question. Not sure I have a good answer.

 

Since according to the LOC even proper pressing can cause damage, at the very least, I think it needs to be proactively dislosed (without asking).

 

Beyond that, I wish the practice would just go away...but I know that's never going to happen. So at this point, I think the best we could hope for is full and proactive disclosure.

And the failure of the anti-pressing crowd results from that expectation. Donut is right, it's the customer that has to be proactive if you really want to see any kind of change. Otherwise, you're tilting at windmills.

I keep seeing in different threads how you refer to this as some "failure" for those who are against pressing. There is no failure and your saying that repeatedly just sounds silly. And Donut isn't right. According to the Library of Congress, pressing does damage to a comic. It's up to those selling the pressed books to disclose the fact. Those who choose not to proactively disclose at this point are dishonest at best...and that fault lies within them...not me.

 

There are plenty of people out there that are trimming books and selling them without disclosure right now. Whether the hobby as a whole agrees that this practice is wrong or not doesn't matter, and won't change that fact. But that fact doesn't mean that pointing it out when we see it is "tilting at windmills" or some failure of some part of the hobby either.

 

Basing your logic on heat and moisture causing a comic to break down faster only means this process starts at the printer. Ink is applied and books are heated to dry and no one complains about that. Or a book stored for 25 years in a warehouse that hits 125+ degrees with 90-100% humidity.

Based on your logic, books are trimmed at the point of manufacture too and nobody complains about that. Perhaps it's ok to trim another few millimeters off each edge without disclosure as well.

 

Nonsense is best served in dual doses.

 

 

Man I am so proud of the anti-pressing crowd today

 

 

[Domo Arigato]

Do those pamphlets identify that McDonald's is the world's #1 buyer of Cow eyes and Cow Hooves because the USDA identifies "BEEF" as ANY part of the cow?

I'm not sure. Perhaps you need to take that up with the USDA.

I am sure you know what I am trying to say.

 

There is disclosure with a small "d" and then there is "DISCLOSURE" with a big "D".

 

McDonalds telling you how much fat and calories are in a cheeseburger is telling you a very tiny, very small, and very incomplete part of the story.

 

Very few, if any, products have full disclosure. Well, pretty much no products have full disclosure. They have the minimum mandated disclosure.

 

The analogy is McDonalds is perfect. The pamphlet is great, but it's no where near the full disclosure.

Nothing is going to have full disclosure. And here again, is yet another one of those cases of going to the extreme to try to make a point where none exists. It's now known that pressing damages a book. Micro-trimming damages a book too. I guess we don't need to disclose that either since we're not going for "full disclosure".

[comix4fun]

What I was trying to say is that disclosure is important and necessary, but trying to equate the disclosure you get in the real world with what you expect from this hobby is a fallacy given the misinformation we are given as consumers that takes the guise of disclosure.

 

Best,

Chris

[nearmint]

If it's enough to point it out, then you're right, there's no failure. But I was under the impression that the anti-pressing crowd wanted to see some kind of change. Silly me.

Who'd to say they're not slowly effecting a change? You?

 

There's less real-world debate about pressing then there used to be, not more. It's a far more accepted practice now then it was just a few years ago. For a long time, the anti-pressing crowd thought that if that the masses in the hobby could be educated about pressing, that they'd rise up and abolish the practice, or at least demand disclosure. Just the opposite has happened. The more that become educated, the more people there are having books pressed.

 

People were shocked a few years ago when Matt ran his first ad in the OS guide advertising his pressing practice. Now he's setting up shows, and those that approach him with books aren't exactly wearing Halloween masks to hide their identity. Pressing is a far more open, accepted practice than it used to be.

 

 

[joeypost]

You shouldn't ever smoke, because even that one cigarette might shorten your lifespan by a completely undeterminable length of time.

 

You shouldn't ever eat a double cheeseburger, because it might shorten your lifespan by a completely undeterminable length of time.

 

You shouldn't ever press a comic, because the damage the process does will shorten its lifespan by a completely undeterminable length of time.

 

See, without specifics....it just doesn't mean anything to me.

Smoking does cause damage to your body.

fact

 

Eating a double cheeseburger is unhealthy.

fact

 

Pressing a comic does damage it.

fact

 

Even without specifics...these facts are very important to me.

 

Tell you what, Domo, just for argument's sake, let's say that you're right.

 

Now what?

Good question. Not sure I have a good answer.

 

Since according to the LOC even proper pressing can cause damage, at the very least, I think it needs to be proactively dislosed (without asking).

 

Beyond that, I wish the practice would just go away...but I know that's never going to happen. So at this point, I think the best we could hope for is full and proactive disclosure.

And the failure of the anti-pressing crowd results from that expectation. Donut is right, it's the customer that has to be proactive if you really want to see any kind of change. Otherwise, you're tilting at windmills.

I keep seeing in different threads how you refer to this as some "failure" for those who are against pressing. There is no failure and your saying that repeatedly just sounds silly. And Donut isn't right. According to the Library of Congress, pressing does damage to a comic. It's up to those selling the pressed books to disclose the fact. Those who choose not to proactively disclose at this point are dishonest at best...and that fault lies within them...not me.

 

There are plenty of people out there that are trimming books and selling them without disclosure right now. Whether the hobby as a whole agrees that this practice is wrong or not doesn't matter, and won't change that fact. But that fact doesn't mean that pointing it out when we see it is "tilting at windmills" or some failure of some part of the hobby either.

 

Basing your logic on heat and moisture causing a comic to break down faster only means this process starts at the printer. Ink is applied and books are heated to dry and no one complains about that. Or a book stored for 25 years in a warehouse that hits 125+ degrees with 90-100% humidity.

Based on your logic, books are trimmed at the point of manufacture too and nobody complains about that. Perhaps it's ok to trim another few millimeters off each edge without disclosure as well.

 

Nonsense is best served in dual doses.

 

You missed my point. Trimming has nothing to do with changing the life expectancy of the paper. It is heated during the manufacturing process. It is shipped in cars/tucks/planes/boats, etc that are not temperature/climate controlled. All of these factors are constantly working against a book, yet many have survive 60-70 or more years.

[Dale Roberts]

Neg...it's the responsibility of the seller to sell their goods with full disclosure as they know it. Thta's the standard of most every business other than comics apparently...

 

Jim

 

Again, that's why I think the anti-pressing crowd live in the theoretical. Your complaint is that dealers aren't proactively disclosing, so you have two choices:

1) Become proactive yourselves.

2) Post incessantly on a message board, with no actions to back up your words, and change nothing.

 

That's shifting respoonsibity rather than making dealers responsibile for their own actions. There's enough of that in this world and saying I'm sorry doesn't fly anymore.

 

Jim

 

OK, lets get REAL about this. Dont make it dealers. There are more people who press on THIS board than there are dealers on the convention circuit. People press books. Boardies, comic collectors, flippers, and more.

 

 

[Domo Arigato]

Are you even interested in discussing this seriously?

 

Not with you. You've made three things clear. (1) You have no idea what damage is being done as a result of pressing. (2) You have no intention of discussing the level of damage that MIGHT be done to books in light of things that are quantifiable (poor storage, books exposed to excessive heat in very small time spans). (3) All you really want to do is make sure that "Pressing is Resto!" is shouted from the rooftops. Enjoy your crusade.

I didn't make it clear. The U.S. Libary of Congress made it clear.

 

Your refusal to admit that the premiere paper conservation experts in the world would know what they're talking about with regards to pressing, means you have absolutely no interest in the truth. Sure...poor storage can damage a book. Storing a book in a hot warehouse can also. Lot's of things can cause damage to a book. So what? We're not talking about them. We're talking about pressing. And the LOC has said their piece on it.

[Domo Arigato]

You shouldn't ever smoke, because even that one cigarette might shorten your lifespan by a completely undeterminable length of time.

 

You shouldn't ever eat a double cheeseburger, because it might shorten your lifespan by a completely undeterminable length of time.

 

You shouldn't ever press a comic, because the damage the process does will shorten its lifespan by a completely undeterminable length of time.

 

See, without specifics....it just doesn't mean anything to me.

Smoking does cause damage to your body.

fact

 

Eating a double cheeseburger is unhealthy.

fact

 

Pressing a comic does damage it.

fact

 

Even without specifics...these facts are very important to me.

 

Tell you what, Domo, just for argument's sake, let's say that you're right.

 

Now what?

Good question. Not sure I have a good answer.

 

Since according to the LOC even proper pressing can cause damage, at the very least, I think it needs to be proactively dislosed (without asking).

 

Beyond that, I wish the practice would just go away...but I know that's never going to happen. So at this point, I think the best we could hope for is full and proactive disclosure.

And the failure of the anti-pressing crowd results from that expectation. Donut is right, it's the customer that has to be proactive if you really want to see any kind of change. Otherwise, you're tilting at windmills.

I keep seeing in different threads how you refer to this as some "failure" for those who are against pressing. There is no failure and your saying that repeatedly just sounds silly. And Donut isn't right. According to the Library of Congress, pressing does damage to a comic. It's up to those selling the pressed books to disclose the fact. Those who choose not to proactively disclose at this point are dishonest at best...and that fault lies within them...not me.

 

There are plenty of people out there that are trimming books and selling them without disclosure right now. Whether the hobby as a whole agrees that this practice is wrong or not doesn't matter, and won't change that fact. But that fact doesn't mean that pointing it out when we see it is "tilting at windmills" or some failure of some part of the hobby either.

 

Basing your logic on heat and moisture causing a comic to break down faster only means this process starts at the printer. Ink is applied and books are heated to dry and no one complains about that. Or a book stored for 25 years in a warehouse that hits 125+ degrees with 90-100% humidity.

Based on your logic, books are trimmed at the point of manufacture too and nobody complains about that. Perhaps it's ok to trim another few millimeters off each edge without disclosure as well.

 

Nonsense is best served in dual doses.

 

You missed my point. Trimming has nothing to do with changing the life expectancy of the paper. It is heated during the manufacturing process. It is shipped in cars/tucks/planes/boats, etc that are not temperature/climate controlled. All of these factors are constantly working against a book, yet many have survive 60-70 or more years.

And you're missing my point. Damage is cumulative. Once you get a book, you really have no control over it's past life and the effects that may have caused on it. You DO have control over what happens to it from that point forward and being able to disclose that fact to a buyer.

[joeypost]

You shouldn't ever smoke, because even that one cigarette might shorten your lifespan by a completely undeterminable length of time.

 

You shouldn't ever eat a double cheeseburger, because it might shorten your lifespan by a completely undeterminable length of time.

 

You shouldn't ever press a comic, because the damage the process does will shorten its lifespan by a completely undeterminable length of time.

 

See, without specifics....it just doesn't mean anything to me.

Smoking does cause damage to your body.

fact

 

Eating a double cheeseburger is unhealthy.

fact

 

Pressing a comic does damage it.

fact

 

Even without specifics...these facts are very important to me.

 

Tell you what, Domo, just for argument's sake, let's say that you're right.

 

Now what?

Good question. Not sure I have a good answer.

 

Since according to the LOC even proper pressing can cause damage, at the very least, I think it needs to be proactively dislosed (without asking).

 

Beyond that, I wish the practice would just go away...but I know that's never going to happen. So at this point, I think the best we could hope for is full and proactive disclosure.

And the failure of the anti-pressing crowd results from that expectation. Donut is right, it's the customer that has to be proactive if you really want to see any kind of change. Otherwise, you're tilting at windmills.

I keep seeing in different threads how you refer to this as some "failure" for those who are against pressing. There is no failure and your saying that repeatedly just sounds silly. And Donut isn't right. According to the Library of Congress, pressing does damage to a comic. It's up to those selling the pressed books to disclose the fact. Those who choose not to proactively disclose at this point are dishonest at best...and that fault lies within them...not me.

 

There are plenty of people out there that are trimming books and selling them without disclosure right now. Whether the hobby as a whole agrees that this practice is wrong or not doesn't matter, and won't change that fact. But that fact doesn't mean that pointing it out when we see it is "tilting at windmills" or some failure of some part of the hobby either.

 

Basing your logic on heat and moisture causing a comic to break down faster only means this process starts at the printer. Ink is applied and books are heated to dry and no one complains about that. Or a book stored for 25 years in a warehouse that hits 125+ degrees with 90-100% humidity.

Based on your logic, books are trimmed at the point of manufacture too and nobody complains about that. Perhaps it's ok to trim another few millimeters off each edge without disclosure as well.

 

Nonsense is best served in dual doses.

 

You missed my point. Trimming has nothing to do with changing the life expectancy of the paper. It is heated during the manufacturing process. It is shipped in cars/tucks/planes/boats, etc that are not temperature/climate controlled. All of these factors are constantly working against a book, yet many have survive 60-70 or more years.

And you're missing my point. Damage is cumulative. Once you get a book, you really have no control over it's past life and the effects that may have caused on it. You DO have control over what happens to it from that point forward and being able to disclose that fact to a buyer.

 

You do realise you are talking to someone who actively discloses. I have control over that, the same way I have control over my ability to do research and ask questions about items I am looking to purchase. I CHOOSE to press books, and (gasp) many, many, many, many others CHOOSE to send me books to press. That's my decision based on the facts. You chose not to, good for you. What I do know, is pressed or not, we will both be in the ground before our books are.

[Foolkiller]

Neg...it's the responsibility of the seller to sell their goods with full disclosure as they know it. Thta's the standard of most every business other than comics apparently...

 

Jim

 

Again, that's why I think the anti-pressing crowd live in the theoretical. Your complaint is that dealers aren't proactively disclosing, so you have two choices:

1) Become proactive yourselves.

2) Post incessantly on a message board, with no actions to back up your words, and change nothing.

 

That's shifting respoonsibity rather than making dealers responsibile for their own actions. There's enough of that in this world and saying I'm sorry doesn't fly anymore.

 

Jim

 

OK, lets get REAL about this. Dont make it dealers. There are more people who press on THIS board than there are dealers on the convention circuit. People press books. Boardies, comic collectors, flippers, and more.

 

 

True.

[Domo Arigato]

What I was trying to say is that disclosure is important and necessary, but trying to equate the disclosure you get in the real world with what you expect from this hobby is a fallacy given the misinformation we are given as consumers that takes the guise of disclosure.

 

Best,

Chris

Oh.

 

I can agree with that. Those other scenarios were brought up and I was just trying to show that there was at least some form of disclosure available for them as well. That's why I hate when people get off on these wierd and extreme tangents to try to make a point.

[nearmint]

I had always thought that the anti-pressers wanted to bring about some kind of change, but from the responses I'm seeing in this thread, it seems like they just want the pro-pressers to admit that they're right.

[Foolkiller]

What I was trying to say is that disclosure is important and necessary, but trying to equate the disclosure you get in the real world with what you expect from this hobby is a fallacy given the misinformation we are given as consumers that takes the guise of disclosure.

 

Best,

Chris

 

Very true. And as I've said before, one of the reasons you get disclosure in the real world is either as a matter of public safety or health or because failure to disclose has a monetary impact on the item. There's no data to suggest that pressing has a significant impact on market valuation, so I doubt that, even if comics were a regulated hobby, pressing would ever have "mandatory" disclosure.

[Foolkiller]

I had always thought that the anti-pressers wanted to bring about some kind of change, but from the responses I'm seeing in this thread, it seems like they just want the pro-pressers to admit that they're right.

 

That's because, as some of them have conceded, the battle about pressing and whether it will continue is long over, and they lost that battle. Now it's just philosophical and ethereal.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

You shouldn't ever smoke, because even that one cigarette might shorten your lifespan by a completely undeterminable length of time.

 

You shouldn't ever eat a double cheeseburger, because it might shorten your lifespan by a completely undeterminable length of time.

 

You shouldn't ever press a comic, because the damage the process does will shorten its lifespan by a completely undeterminable length of time.

 

See, without specifics....it just doesn't mean anything to me.

Smoking does cause damage to your body.

fact

 

Eating a double cheeseburger is unhealthy.

fact

 

Pressing a comic does damage it.

fact

 

Even without specifics...these facts are very important to me.

 

So, you clearly don't ever eat a cheeseburger, drink alcohol, have a cigarette, eat non-organic food, etc. etc. etc. because all of those things are, even in some small way, harmful, right?

Why do so many people feel they have to go to the exteme in some vain attempt to try to make a point? I really can't figure that out.

 

Oh well...taking your extreme example to heart...I'll offer up an equally ridiculous response to it.

 

If I smoke a cigarette (which I don't) there is a label right there on the package warning me. I don't have to call the tobacco company and ask them if there's any danger to me.

 

If I drink a beer...again there is a warning label contributing to the common knowledge that we are all aware of regarding the risks.

 

With a cheeseburger, it's common knowledge that it is an unhealthy product and that there are proven risks associated with that kind of diet (this dietary information is provided in pamplets available at the restaurants as well).

 

The point is, these people aren't pisssing in my ear and telling me it's a q-tip. I'm fully aware of what I'm getting when I purchase these products. That is not always the case with a pressed comic.

 

 

Actually, you've completely changed the argument from one of quantifying the "harm" that Pressing does, to that of Disclosure. Nice slight of hand, but it doesn't advance your argument one bit. Please stick to the issue at hand...offer us something tangible as to the actual harm that Pressing does to a comic or give it up.