Fraud from a seller -

[comix4fun]

Chris, you need to take off the lawyer hat on this. He had a chance to inspect the book. If the seller told him the stamp was in the book, it's a mute point. He could have looked at it, he held the book in hand. If the seller told him that Stan Lee had lunch while reading the book and Jack Kirby cleared the dishes, it would not really matter. He had the book in hand and later decided he did not like it. He could have not liked it before he paid for it and went home?

 

What if the seller told him the stamp was missing while it was in fact still in the book? Should the buyer offer him more money because he described the book worse than it really was? I have bought books and found out the were not as nice as I thought. Through the mail you have an honest gripe. In person it's a different thing.

 

Just me thoughts....

 

 

 

A hidden defect and a hidden attribute are not the same thing.

 

And we aren't really talking about a subjective condition issue problem. We are talking about a serious defect that was hidden by removal of an entire page that could not be discovered through a cursory look through the book. And from the description this was a savvy seller with experience in the comic world.

 

If it's described as complete or as in a grade that a missing page makes impossible and the defect is hidden by the removal of an entire page to make discovery on a cursory glance impossible I think the seller might have a bigger problem given his attestations to the quality. But it really depends on what the seller promised.

 

If you buy a car and the seller says it's in perfect condition and you look under the hood and don't see anything on a quick inspection and later you find a cracked block, or when you open the trunk you find a giant hole in the floor when you have the time and ability to inspect it more closely you have every right to return to that seller and discuss what he promised and what he delivered. The only difference in the analogy is the dollar level involved. Just because people don't sue over small transactions normally does not mean that a tort has not been committed.

 

Having done what I do for a living for over a dozen years now I have seen enough to know that the individual details of what happened will tell the real tale. I am not ready to dismiss it offhand or say that he's rock solid to win based on what I have heard, but I do know that it's not a cut and dried situation for seller or buyer.

 

 

Best,

Chris

 

 

PS. Stuart, I have won in court with far less evidence than this.

 

[Kevin76]

PS. Stuart, I have won in court with far less evidence than this.

 

[Foolkiller]

Chris, you need to take off the lawyer hat on this. He had a chance to inspect the book. If the seller told him the stamp was in the book, it's a mute point. He could have looked at it, he held the book in hand. If the seller told him that Stan Lee had lunch while reading the book and Jack Kirby cleared the dishes, it would not really matter. He had the book in hand and later decided he did not like it. He could have not liked it before he paid for it and went home?

 

What if the seller told him the stamp was missing while it was in fact still in the book? Should the buyer offer him more money because he described the book worse than it really was? I have bought books and found out the were not as nice as I thought. Through the mail you have an honest gripe. In person it's a different thing.

 

Just me thoughts....

 

 

 

A hidden defect and a hidden attribute are not the same thing.

 

And we aren't really talking about a subjective condition issue problem. We are talking about a serious defect that was hidden by removal of an entire page that could not be discovered through a cursory look through the book. And from the description this was a savvy seller with experience in the comic world.

 

If it's described as complete or as in a grade that a missing page makes impossible and the defect is hidden by the removal of an entire page to make discovery on a cursory glance impossible I think the seller might have a bigger problem given his attestations to the quality. But it really depends on what the seller promised.

 

If you buy a car and the seller says it's in perfect condition and you look under the hood and don't see anything on a quick inspection and later you find a cracked block, or when you open the trunk you find a giant hole in the floor when you have the time and ability to inspect it more closely you have every right to return to that seller and discuss what he promised and what he delivered. The only difference in the analogy is the dollar level involved. Just because people don't sue over small transactions normally does not mean that a tort has not been committed.

 

Having done what I do for a living for over a dozen years now I have seen enough to know that the individual details of what happened will tell the real tale. I am not ready to dismiss it offhand or say that he's rock solid to win based on what I have heard, but I do know that it's not a cut and dried situation for seller or buyer.

 

 

Best,

Chris

 

 

PS. Stuart, I have won in court with far less evidence than this.

 

That's right, courts tend to protect buyers especially on issues with hidden conditions. The onus is generally placed on the seller.

 

Chris has highlighted some of the key things any court would consider in ruling on this claim. However, I do think it's probably a close call, that the fact finder would need to hear and evaluate the testimony thoroughly in order to make a reasoned decision.

[comix4fun]

Chris, you need to take off the lawyer hat on this. He had a chance to inspect the book. If the seller told him the stamp was in the book, it's a mute point. He could have looked at it, he held the book in hand. If the seller told him that Stan Lee had lunch while reading the book and Jack Kirby cleared the dishes, it would not really matter. He had the book in hand and later decided he did not like it. He could have not liked it before he paid for it and went home?

 

What if the seller told him the stamp was missing while it was in fact still in the book? Should the buyer offer him more money because he described the book worse than it really was? I have bought books and found out the were not as nice as I thought. Through the mail you have an honest gripe. In person it's a different thing.

 

Just me thoughts....

 

 

 

A hidden defect and a hidden attribute are not the same thing.

 

And we aren't really talking about a subjective condition issue problem. We are talking about a serious defect that was hidden by removal of an entire page that could not be discovered through a cursory look through the book. And from the description this was a savvy seller with experience in the comic world.

 

If it's described as complete or as in a grade that a missing page makes impossible and the defect is hidden by the removal of an entire page to make discovery on a cursory glance impossible I think the seller might have a bigger problem given his attestations to the quality. But it really depends on what the seller promised.

 

If you buy a car and the seller says it's in perfect condition and you look under the hood and don't see anything on a quick inspection and later you find a cracked block, or when you open the trunk you find a giant hole in the floor when you have the time and ability to inspect it more closely you have every right to return to that seller and discuss what he promised and what he delivered. The only difference in the analogy is the dollar level involved. Just because people don't sue over small transactions normally does not mean that a tort has not been committed.

 

Having done what I do for a living for over a dozen years now I have seen enough to know that the individual details of what happened will tell the real tale. I am not ready to dismiss it offhand or say that he's rock solid to win based on what I have heard, but I do know that it's not a cut and dried situation for seller or buyer.

 

 

Best,

Chris

 

 

PS. Stuart, I have won in court with far less evidence than this.

 

That's right, courts tend to protect buyers especially on issues with hidden conditions. The onus is generally placed on the seller.

 

Chris has highlighted some of the key things any court would consider in ruling on this claim. However, I do think it's probably a close call, that the fact finder would need to hear and evaluate the testimony thoroughly in order to make a reasoned decision.

 

That's where I was going with this. I am glad you picked up on it.

 

Courts of equity tend to look to the results each remedy would bring. If they were to "undo" the sale, return the money to the buyer, and return the book to the seller the parties are in exactly the same position they were prior to the transaction.

 

Neither party is unjustly enriched or gains a windfall over the other.

[HouseofComics.Com]

He could have looked at it, he held the book in hand. If the seller told him that Stan Lee had lunch while reading the book and Jack Kirby cleared the dishes,

 

[skypinkblu]

*Sigh*

 

Lesson #1...

 

COUNT the pages...I've missed clipped coupons because I tend to hold the book in the middle so I don't mess up the spine, but one of the first things I was taught..was COUNT the pages

 

Not that I haven't missed a few myself...but if you have the opportunity to buy a book in person, you really need to count them.

 

OK, back to Comics Court...I'm enjoying the intelligent viewpoints.

[Dick Pontoon]

So, here's the situation. I bought a book (hulk 181 f/vf) from a guy that lives near me. I paid cash and I had looked through the book and I did believe it was intact. True, I didn't realize that the Marvel Stamp was missing, I was looking for a piece missing. So, apparently the seller took the whole page out and I wasn't aware.....

 

I just found out that this is missing the Mark Jewel Marvel insert. I guess I should have made sure that page was indeed there, but I wasn't 100% sure...So I basically got on this by the seller.

 

I just saw the bottom post in the PGM Forum. Is it missing the MVS or a Jewelers Insert? If the insert, that’s meaningless. Not every comic came with one. If it’s the MVS, the right side page of the letters pages will be missing.

[RockMyAmadeus]

"moot"

[RockMyAmadeus]

No Acolytes.Looky at the picture...geeesshh you'd think you never heard fo the APA (Acolyte protection Agency) Bradshaw and farouk rock!

My bad. Since I found out wrestling was fake, I just haven't been able to watch the WWF.

It's called the WWE now

No, he meant this:

Protect Endangered Wildlife - WWF en Yahoo! Video

[sckao]

*Sigh*

 

Lesson #1...

 

COUNT the pages...I've missed clipped coupons because I tend to hold the book in the middle so I don't mess up the spine, but one of the first things I was taught..was COUNT the pages

 

Not that I haven't missed a few myself...but if you have the opportunity to buy a book in person, you really need to count them.

 

OK, back to Comics Court...I'm enjoying the intelligent viewpoints.

 

This only works if you know HOW MANY PAGES THERE SHOULD BE in the first place right?

 

I've never actually owned a Hulk #181...

 

 

 

 

 

[scottish]

I think we just curse Marvel til the end of days for putting coupons in a book which require clipping!

 

I know, I know, how could anyone have foreseen the value of a funny book back in 1974.

 

FWIW - counting pages wouldn't do me any good either though I probably could have just SEEN the freakin' stamp missing in my case.

[sckao]

 

This seems to be the missing page?

 

(The page with the MVS which has Stan Lee's Soapbox column on the back.)

 

 

[comicartfan]

This is NOT fraud. You went to meet him, looked over the book, and paid him. How is that fraud? If you bought the book sight unseen you can claim fraud. It's hard to claim a crime was committed when you had a chance to view the item ahead of time? Did I miss something?

 

I do not see anything wrong here. Sorry.

 

Based on this statement, I take it if you went into Home Depot, for example and bought a drill. You get it home, open it up and see that something is missing. You would take it back and expect to get a refund. You wouldn't expect them to say, "You had time to inspect it before you bought it " ....So why is it different for an individual ? - It's not. -

 

And to say to Chris, "you need to take off your lawyer hat on this one" is insane. A person doesn't look the other way or excuse bad behavior......A cop doesn't "take his law enforcement hat off when he's off duty.....When a family member is in the hospital and I see something that is negligent, I don't take my RN hat off.........

...I don't know if I will win in small claims court or not, but I have alot of evidence (emails) that he KNEW alot about comics, CGC and mentioned several dealers he knew personally.

 

 

[comicartfan]

I think we just curse Marvel til the end of days for putting coupons in a book which require clipping!

 

I know, I know, how could anyone have foreseen the value of a funny book back in 1974.

 

FWIW - counting pages wouldn't do me any good either though I probably could have just SEEN the freakin' stamp missing in my case.

 

I did count pages, but I never saw the MVS missing since the page was torn out entirely. Not too mention, I've never looked at the book before...I mean, really, who reads comics !?

[Stronguy]

This is NOT fraud. You went to meet him, looked over the book, and paid him. How is that fraud? If you bought the book sight unseen you can claim fraud. It's hard to claim a crime was committed when you had a chance to view the item ahead of time? Did I miss something?

 

I do not see anything wrong here. Sorry.

 

Based on this statement, I take it if you went into Home Depot, for example and bought a drill. You get it home, open it up and see that something is missing. You would take it back and expect to get a refund. You wouldn't expect them to say, "You had time to inspect it before you bought it " ....So why is it different for an individual ? - It's not. -

 

Your confusing good business practices with legal obligation. Any time something it is sold as-is unless they state some sort of warranty/guarantee.

 

Face it, you messed up because you didn't catch problem with the book. Unless you can prove that the seller had prior knowledge that the page was missing (good luck with that) then you have no legal leg to stand on. Instead you have to rely on his good nature to make a bad deal right.

 

Sorry, that's the way it works.

[Flemmings]

This is NOT fraud. You went to meet him, looked over the book, and paid him. How is that fraud? If you bought the book sight unseen you can claim fraud. It's hard to claim a crime was committed when you had a chance to view the item ahead of time? Did I miss something?

 

I do not see anything wrong here. Sorry.

 

Based on this statement, I take it if you went into Home Depot, for example and bought a drill. You get it home, open it up and see that something is missing. You would take it back and expect to get a refund. You wouldn't expect them to say, "You had time to inspect it before you bought it " ....So why is it different for an individual ? - It's not. -

 

Your confusing good business practices with legal obligation. Any time something it is sold as-is unless they state some sort of warranty/guarantee.

 

Face it, you messed up because you didn't catch problem with the book. Unless you can prove that the seller had prior knowledge that the page was missing (good luck with that) then you have no legal leg to stand on. Instead you have to rely on his good nature to make a bad deal right.

 

Sorry, that's the way it works.

 

I agree with Strong Guy eventhough it is F'd up what the seller did. Well its F'd up if he knew about it. I would just take my losses and use it as a reader copy. We all still read comics right

[mschmidt]

This is NOT fraud. You went to meet him, looked over the book, and paid him. How is that fraud? If you bought the book sight unseen you can claim fraud. It's hard to claim a crime was committed when you had a chance to view the item ahead of time? Did I miss something?

 

I do not see anything wrong here. Sorry.

 

Based on this statement, I take it if you went into Home Depot, for example and bought a drill. You get it home, open it up and see that something is missing. You would take it back and expect to get a refund. You wouldn't expect them to say, "You had time to inspect it before you bought it " ....So why is it different for an individual ? - It's not. -

 

That analogy doesn't really apply here. You personally inspected the book prior to purchase, so you had every chance to discover the missing MVS yourself - it's not like you were buying a book sight-unseen (or a power drill sealed inside a case, to continue with your analogy).

 

It sucks that the seller is unwilling to make things right, yep, but how do you know that he was aware of the missing page?

[Kevin76]

This is NOT fraud. You went to meet him, looked over the book, and paid him. How is that fraud? If you bought the book sight unseen you can claim fraud. It's hard to claim a crime was committed when you had a chance to view the item ahead of time? Did I miss something?

 

I do not see anything wrong here. Sorry.

 

Based on this statement, I take it if you went into Home Depot, for example and bought a drill. You get it home, open it up and see that something is missing. You would take it back and expect to get a refund. You wouldn't expect them to say, "You had time to inspect it before you bought it " ....So why is it different for an individual ? - It's not. -

 

Your confusing good business practices with legal obligation. Any time something it is sold as-is unless they state some sort of warranty/guarantee.

 

Face it, you messed up because you didn't catch problem with the book. Unless you can prove that the seller had prior knowledge that the page was missing (good luck with that) then you have no legal leg to stand on. Instead you have to rely on his good nature to make a bad deal right.

 

Sorry, that's the way it works.

 

I agree with Strong Guy eventhough it is F'd up what the seller did. Well its F'd up if he knew about it. I would just take my losses and use it as a reader copy. We all still read comics right

 

He can't even read it since a page is torn out, he's missing part of the story.

[RockMyAmadeus]

*Sigh*

 

Lesson #1...

 

COUNT the pages...I've missed clipped coupons because I tend to hold the book in the middle so I don't mess up the spine, but one of the first things I was taught..was COUNT the pages

 

Not that I haven't missed a few myself...but if you have the opportunity to buy a book in person, you really need to count them.

 

OK, back to Comics Court...I'm enjoying the intelligent viewpoints.

 

This only works if you know HOW MANY PAGES THERE SHOULD BE in the first place right?

 

I've never actually owned a Hulk #181...

 

 

 

 

 

16 leaves for almost every standard book from 1954-2009. 8 before the staples, 8 after.

 

1 leaf = 2 "pages" (that is, one physical page printed front and back, and 1/2 of a complete sheet before folding and stapling.)

 

Most saddle-stitched (ie, stapled)) Golden Age books prior to 1943 have 32 (or 28) leaves, with 16 or 14 on each side of the staple, then after about 1943, books became standard at 24 leaves until about 1952, when the page count was reduced to either 20 leaves or 16 leaves total (except ECs, which were 16 leaves total from 1950-up.)

 

Since page count varied widely until 1954, always check the specific book's supposed page count before counting actual pages. Batman #86, for example, has 12 leaves before the staple, and 8 leaves after. They simply took four sheets, cut them almost in half, then bound the book that way...this was during the transition from 24 leaves to 16. The result is that the book looks like someone neatly cut out 4 pages from the second half.

 

Other than "Giants" and "Annuals", I've never seen a regular comic published from 1954-2009 that was anything other than 16 leaves total.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I think we just curse Marvel til the end of days for putting coupons in a book which require clipping!

 

I know, I know, how could anyone have foreseen the value of a funny book back in 1974.

 

FWIW - counting pages wouldn't do me any good either though I probably could have just SEEN the freakin' stamp missing in my case.

 

I did count pages, but I never saw the MVS missing since the page was torn out entirely.

 

These two statements contradict each other. If you counted pages, you would have noticed the book had 15 leaves, instead of 16, whether you saw which page was missing or not.

 

Which is it?