Market corrections in September Clink auction results?

[Peter Loves Gwen]

I don't want anyone to ever ignore anything when grading a book or valuating it. Any and all defects, or bad things, affect the value and appearance. We don't need to distinguish between grade, value, and appearance, but that seems to be what most people want.

 

I don't care how it got there, chipping is bad, period. The paper quality is much more important for long term conservation, and that doesn't get enough consideration by CGC or most collectors. The market will eventually recognize the PQ issue, but they may be 50 years away still. Sooner or later a much more specific PQ rating is going to be required.

[proventheory-migration]

etanick - does it look like most people sell their stuff during january?

[adamstrange]

The argument I make against chipping is that it is impossible to say if it's a pure prduction flaw or part of the human handling. Many a small tear can get folded back and then "chip" off well after production. To me it's just a common flaw and has to be incorporated like any other. But missing paper on the cover is a huge problem IMO.

Marvel chipping is due to extreme high pressure exerted by a dull blade on the press. It is visibly different than anything a human would produce.

 

I believe he means that when you see a missing chip, you don't know if it was ripped off during production or if it was a production pre-chip that a human tore off later. He's right, people tear off loose pre-chips when opening a comic all the time.

Even in that situation, they would still look different than a tear and chip falling out caused by a person.

[adamstrange]

I'm probably making a mistake, but I'll jump into the chipping pool.

 

The fact of the matter is that Marvel chipping is called Marvel chipping (and not Gold Key chipping) because it's peculiar to Marvel comics during a specific duration (I'll defer to others for when it actually began and ended). Rather than being something out of the ordinary, it's actually (and unfortunately) extremely common.

 

TECHNICALLY, the MC is how the books were manufactured and not a "defect". For high grade collectors, it's considered a defect because it's something "missing" from the edge. When the books were sold originally, only the most anal of customers gave a rat's patootie about it. They grabbed the book, took it home and read it - end of subject.

 

In my humble (and many say, definitive) opinion, CGC should not factor in the chipping because it's exactly how the book was manufactured. Grading uses an "off the rack" ideal and that's how it came off the rack.

 

HOWEVER, and there's always a however in these matters, it is up to the MARKET to decide what the value of a book with chipping is.

 

It's too late for CGC to change course, but the least complicated choice would have been for them to ignore it altogether.

 

But what do I know?

It's still reasonable to call it a "production defect" and to deduct from the grade. I'm one that tends to be more lenient on production defects though I'm not completely happy with CGC's approach towards them.

 

CGC had to pick some standard and apply it consistently if they were to create a viable market reputation. The difficulty they had was that there is no precise agreement on that standard nor do I ever expect there to be given the many conversations I've had with folks over the years. When CGC first started they solicited input and ran some trials past a number of knowledgeable individuals and considered that before finalizing their standard. They received conflicting input and resolved that as they saw fit, disappointing just about everyone in one way or another but that was, IMHO, unavoidable.

[MarkWoodcock]

CGC had to pick some standard and apply it consistently if they were to create a viable market reputation. The difficulty they had was that there is no precise agreement on that standard nor do I ever expect there to be given the many conversations I've had with folks over the years. When CGC first started they solicited input and ran some trials past a number of knowledgeable individuals and considered that before finalizing their standard. They received conflicting input and resolved that as they saw fit, disappointing just about everyone in one way or another but that was, IMHO, unavoidable.

 

And that is exactly why I think it should be totally ignored.

 

You can have an absolutely pristine book that has chipping - that's the way it was made as it rolled off the press. Let the MARKET decide the value of a 9.4 book with chipping at the time of production.

 

It's impossible to devise a system that is consistent because the chipping is totally INconsistent. It's for that reason no one is happy with how they handle it.

 

Also, it's inconsistent of them to have chipping impact a grade when they totally ignore Mile High books with bindery tears. I was told by graders at the beginning that they didn't take bindery tears into consideration because that's the way the book was manufactured. How is that different from chipping?

 

Oh, I know - it's not.

[adamstrange]

CGC had to pick some standard and apply it consistently if they were to create a viable market reputation. The difficulty they had was that there is no precise agreement on that standard nor do I ever expect there to be given the many conversations I've had with folks over the years. When CGC first started they solicited input and ran some trials past a number of knowledgeable individuals and considered that before finalizing their standard. They received conflicting input and resolved that as they saw fit, disappointing just about everyone in one way or another but that was, IMHO, unavoidable.

 

And that is exactly why I think it should be totally ignored.

 

You can have an absolutely pristine book that has chipping - that's the way it was made as it rolled off the press. Let the MARKET decide the value of a 9.4 book with chipping at the time of production.

 

It's impossible to devise a system that is consistent because the chipping is totally INconsistent. It's for that reason no one is happy with how they handle it.

 

Also, it's inconsistent of them to have chipping impact a grade when they totally ignore Mile High books with bindery tears. I was told by graders at the beginning that they didn't take bindery tears into consideration because that's the way the book was manufactured. How is that different from chipping?

 

Oh, I know - it's not.

It is possible to devise a standard but it's not possible to please everyone. People don't agree about how to grade for handling defects any more than production defects so if we remove everything that's "controversial" there's not much left to do except perhaps produce a list of defects for a book?

 

With GA books they will deduct minimally for bindery tears as I don't think you'll get a 9.9 or 10.0 but I know they have given a 9.6 to books with them.

 

With baseball cards and stamps handling defects are uncommon enough that production defects (being off-center) results in significantly higher deductions in those hobbies. Their standard isn't any more "right" than the standard for production defects in comics but I point this out to defend those who wish production defects to be treated more harshly -- they are hardly alone.

[VintageComics]

I don't care how it got there, chipping is bad, period. The paper quality is much more important for long term conservation, and that doesn't get enough consideration by CGC or most collectors. The market will eventually recognize the PQ issue, but they may be 50 years away still. Sooner or later a much more specific PQ rating is going to be required.

 

 

Um, chipping is bad to you. Some people don't care about it.

 

Paper quality has always been a consideration for collectors. White pagers sell for stupid money and lots of collectors avoid tanning or dark pages. I'm not sure why you think it doesn't get enough consideration.

 

The PQ issue is already recognized.

 

[Ghost Town]

In my humble (and many say, definitive) opinion, CGC should not factor in the chipping because it's exactly how the book was manufactured. Grading uses an "off the rack" ideal and that's how it came off the rack.

If every book in a print run were the same, that argument might hold more water for me. But let's take Amazing Fantasy #15 as an example. Many copies have Marvel chipping, but many don't. With all else being equal, should the copies with chipping be graded as highly as the copies without it?

 

 

[marvel_runs]

Great thread everyone. This is the first I've heard of a Comiclink correction, but I haven't been winning anything there recently so maybe prices got higher than I remember seeing. Here are a couple observations and opinions I have (first on the soft market and second on chipping)...

 

I've noticed that there have been tons fewer books added and generally less of a selection over the past maybe 2 years or so on Comiclink's fixed price listings compared to how many there were before that time. My interpretation is that all those books got posted to their auctions instead. To me this seemed like a bit of a market flood, but the market was absorbing them for quite a while.

 

And with prices high, why not post your books to auction? ..to quickly get what you want for them rather than posting them at a fixed price and leave them there for a year or two before they sell for what you want. I had some fixed price listings on CL and converted them over to auctions not too long ago. The books were nice but not top tier and thought I got maybe 25% less than what I could have if I had kept them at fixed prices and held out for a better price. But I liquidated them. That's always been a possibility on CL ebay or anywhere when you post at auction with no reserve.

 

Personally, I hadn't won anything from a Comiclink auction in probably close to a year until this week where I picked up a pair of inexpensive bronze x-mens that I was missing. (Maybe prices have just finally gotten back to normal?) I've been focusing exclusively on books I needed and upgrades and have been passing on the occasional cheap duplicates I used to pick up. This year I'd been picking up more stuff on ebay, and from fixed price or best offer dealer websites. Earlier this year and late last year I had been getting a fair amount of stuff on Heritage.

 

Another strike against me bidding on CL auctions for me is that the past 16 months or so I've been too busy at work to get home in time for Comiclink's mid-week evening auction ending times and all the bids I put in early got sniped. Companies have been pushing the employees they haven't laid off during the past two years harder to squeeze out every last drop of productivity, so I'm probably not the only one who has been too tired on weekday evenings to wait up for the CL auctions to end. I also doubt I'm the only person who found more than enough good deals outside of Comiclink as people sold their collections to make ends meet due to the weak economy.

 

I think if you look at any one venue, you're going to get a snapshot, and the big picture is that the comic market is continuously evolving. Ebay used to be the hottest place to post books, and there was a great selection of high grade CGC'd silver for several years. For a while, it seemed like if you had the cash, you could find 80 or 90% or more of a high-grade CGC'd marvel collection in any given 6-month period. Then that stream declined quite a bit for one reason or another. Ebay bumped up their listing fees, closing fees, reserve fees, changed their format, etc. and people migrated away from there. Then Comiclink had near-full runs of high grade marvels at fixed price listings (that I still couldn't afford).

 

Heritage has had a good chunk of the market and a wide selection with their weekly auctions for quite a while, All of their auctions end at the same time on Sunday evenings, which made/makes it easy for me to bid on them.

 

Comiclink had a good run with their auctions for the last few years and after a few soft Comiclink auctions the market may adjust to a new normal (maybe back to more fixed price listings). CL may tinker with their format a bit too to encourage prices back up, or someone else may come along with an idea that better maximizes sales and take over some of Comiclink's market share.

 

It is possible that collectors may be reluctant to spend what they did a year ago on a few auctions on Comiclink (or elsewhere) for a while, which may lead to fewer books to come to market (less discretionary selling) and the core comic collectors out there may go a few months without exhausting their comic budget because fewer books come up. They'll have their comic credit cards paid off or their comic cash stash built up and when books do come up again they'll likely start spending more on books again. Without a larger national or global economic downturn, I suspect that collectors (myself included) will not be able to quit their habit, and that this will be looked upon as a buying opportunity.

 

As others have mentioned, and as I think a lot of collectors look at things, you can buy a $50 bottle of wine and enjoy it for an evening, or you can buy a $50 comic and enjoy it and then sell it and get $50 or $35 or $65 down the road.

 

That's one cent.

[marvel_runs]

Here's the second of my two cents, this one on chipping. If you scroll through the thread, there's a wide variety of opinions on whether it is a big deal or not a big deal, whether it should slightly affect the grade or greatly affect the grade of a book. Remember that you are going to have three (possibly more) humans giving a subjective analysis of each comic you send to CGC. Each of those people will have their own opintions on chipping. Each consensus grade for a comic will depend on the three+ people at CGC who are assigned to grade that particular comic (on that submission).

 

Here's a 9.0 I have in my collection that has substantial pre-chipping:

 

 

 

As defects go, I'd gladly trade my JIM 90 F/VF (with general wear) for the pristine copy with a bit of pre-chipping earlier in the thread (notwithstanding that mine is PGX graded - I think it would have gotten a 7.0 from CGC too). I'm not a big fan of resubmitting CGC books back to CGC for another grade, but the previous copy in this thread, if given to a different group of humans with different prejudices against chipping, might give it a different grade. That book is from the same collection as my 9.0 above, so there may be a hidden defect, but if not, it seems like it could get a significantly higher grade if resubmitted

 

 

If I can remember, I will try to post this book back to this thread when I get it back from CGC around Thanksgiving. This one has Altas chipping (smirk) and I had no idea what grade to assign it. I think it displays well, it is an extremely tough book to find in nice shape, and though I would like to have a copy without chipping, being that it is a defect from a dull cutting blade at the printing press, my personal preference is that I'd rather the comic have chipping than a 4" hard front cover crease. And it makes no difference to me whether the chips came off at the press or if some 12 year old kid pulled them off 50 years ago.

 

I love the cover - it reminds me of the old twilight zone re-run I saw when I was young that was entitled "To Serve Man".

 

[VintageComics]

Make that 5 people who do not have a problem with chipping.

 

(thumbs u

[DarkKnightReturns]

In my humble (and many say, definitive) opinion, CGC should not factor in the chipping because it's exactly how the book was manufactured. Grading uses an "off the rack" ideal and that's how it came off the rack.

If every book in a print run were the same, that argument might hold more water for me. But let's take Amazing Fantasy #15 as an example. Many copies have Marvel chipping, but many don't. With all else being equal, should the copies with chipping be graded as highly as the copies without it?

 

If you're a kid picking an AF 15 off the rack are you gonna choose the chipped copy or the mint copy ? Are you really gonna say to yourself " its just a production flaw" Of course not. You're taking the non-chipped one every time.

 

Hopefully this makes sense. I'm fairly intoxicated.

[VintageComics]

In my humble (and many say, definitive) opinion, CGC should not factor in the chipping because it's exactly how the book was manufactured. Grading uses an "off the rack" ideal and that's how it came off the rack.

If every book in a print run were the same, that argument might hold more water for me. But let's take Amazing Fantasy #15 as an example. Many copies have Marvel chipping, but many don't. With all else being equal, should the copies with chipping be graded as highly as the copies without it?

 

If you're a kid picking an AF 15 off the rack are you gonna choose the chipped copy or the mint copy ? Are you really gonna say to yourself " its just a production flaw" Of course not. You're taking the non-chipped one every time.

 

Hopefully this makes sense. I'm fairly intoxicated.

 

I'm always intoxicated.

 

What if they are all chipped at the newsstand (which is entirely possible)?

[etanick]

etanick - does it look like most people sell their stuff during january?

 

based on the past 2 January and all the data points I collected, January has been the biggest month. Why? perhaps, people need to pay the bills for all the Christmas gifts...but that is just my opinion.

 

 

[Peter Loves Gwen]

In my humble (and many say, definitive) opinion, CGC should not factor in the chipping because it's exactly how the book was manufactured. Grading uses an "off the rack" ideal and that's how it came off the rack.

If every book in a print run were the same, that argument might hold more water for me. But let's take Amazing Fantasy #15 as an example. Many copies have Marvel chipping, but many don't. With all else being equal, should the copies with chipping be graded as highly as the copies without it?

 

If you're a kid picking an AF 15 off the rack are you gonna choose the chipped copy or the mint copy ? Are you really gonna say to yourself " its just a production flaw" Of course not. You're taking the non-chipped one every time.

 

Hopefully this makes sense. I'm fairly intoxicated.

 

I'm always intoxicated.

 

What if they are all chipped at the newsstand (which is entirely possible)?

 

 

Excellent point Ghost Town. If they were all the same, it wouldn't be a big debate at all. There simply would not be(or should not be), any high grade copies at all.

 

 

Roy, it is very likely that lots of racks of the comics were all chipped. I'd bet those were in runs or groups. Some dealers received no chipping on the books, while others had almost all of them with the chipping damage.

 

Keep an eye on your books and the CGC PQ rating. Eventually you will notice tanning of some kind on books that are called OW/W or white pages. Those are not as good as an off white book with no tanning. Right now those are not common to find, but they are out there. Wait 50 years, the CGC PQ rating system used now, will be a big deal(controversial) then. Regards,

[showcase22gr1959]

etanick - does it look like most people sell their stuff during january?

 

based on the past 2 January and all the data points I collected, January has been the biggest month. Why? perhaps, people need to pay the bills for all the Christmas gifts...but that is just my opinion.

 

 

Also, selling early next year will defer paying ones' taxes till the following year.

[Flash105]

In my humble (and many say, definitive) opinion, CGC should not factor in the chipping because it's exactly how the book was manufactured. Grading uses an "off the rack" ideal and that's how it came off the rack.

If every book in a print run were the same, that argument might hold more water for me. But let's take Amazing Fantasy #15 as an example. Many copies have Marvel chipping, but many don't. With all else being equal, should the copies with chipping be graded as highly as the copies without it?

 

If you're a kid picking an AF 15 off the rack are you gonna choose the chipped copy or the mint copy ? Are you really gonna say to yourself " its just a production flaw" Of course not. You're taking the non-chipped one every time.

 

Hopefully this makes sense. I'm fairly intoxicated.

 

I'm always intoxicated.

 

What if they are all chipped at the newsstand (which is entirely possible)?

 

 

Excellent point Ghost Town. If they were all the same, it wouldn't be a big debate at all. There simply would not be(or should not be), any high grade copies at all.

 

 

Roy, it is very likely that lots of racks of the comics were all chipped. I'd bet those were in runs or groups. Some dealers received no chipping on the books, while others had almost all of them with the chipping damage.

 

Keep an eye on your books and the CGC PQ rating. Eventually you will notice tanning of some kind on books that are called OW/W or white pages. Those are not as good as an off white book with no tanning. Right now those are not common to find, but they are out there. Wait 50 years, the CGC PQ rating system used now, will be a big deal(controversial) then. Regards,

 

I agree those coveted old label books will no longer be coveted.. If fact, freshly graded will not be a negative. I would also think that CGC needs to put a grade date on the labels.

[NewWorldOrder]

All I can say is that (once again) I ended up as the underbidder on every SA ASM that I placed a bid on, which was mostly 9.2 WP copies. It's not that I'm lowballing either - my bids are between 90% and 110% of GPA, depending on whether I think a book is weak / strong for it's given grade. It seems to be the case with almost every auction for a SA ASM that I've bid on all year, whether it be CLink or eBay. I don't think I've acquired a SA book all year that wasn't a BIN...

 

You missed out earlier this year then, not sure how...all the Silver Spideys I saw were going for 20% - 50% under market. Lots of 9.x copies going for the same prices they did in 2004/2005. This auction was a bit stronger than previous ones this year but by no means an advancement in the market, just an apparent re-solidification of it.

Spideys lost his fastball and people are more psyched about the upcoming Green Lantern and Thor movies now, really everybody I know talks positve of the Johns Green Lantern and everybody has talked negative about Spider-man since Brand New Day,plus not to mention the upcoming Spidey movie reboot seems even less appealing then the Raimi/Tobey Maguire movies,most people I have talked with also were not happy that Raimi/Tobey Maguire got the boot.That`s how people would have felt if Christopher Reeve was fired from Superman! Those could be some reasons why the Spidey books have dropped in value by half.

 

The main reason most ASMs have dropped is due the abundance of the issues in HG in every auction everywhere you can think of.

 

The only reason they have not dropped value even more is because they are Spider-man issues.

 

If you have a bank roll then ASM is one of easiest SA runs to put together in HG almost over night.

 

 

[NewWorldOrder]

I downgrade for Marvel Chipping, whether it's a readers crease or production related.

 

A defect is a defect no matter how is happens.,

 

Marvel Chipping makes me

 

It really takes away from the cover of the book for me.

 

Marvel Chipping is like meeting a hot broad, and then she opens her mouth and you have this.

 

When Marvel Chipping happens in real life.

 

[proventheory-migration]