What's the Forum stance on Bootleg items.??

[Dale Roberts]

I think you really have to take it on a case by case basis. It would depend on whether it is truly a bootleg, or something else.

 

In MOST cases, producing and selling bootlegs is thievery. If you feel comfortable buying stolen property, then go ahead.

 

I am always amazed how ethics is so conditional on this board.

[DiceX]

They are contracted to grade it, not destroy it.

 

You are incorrect. They are contracted to certify it. If it's not authentic, it should not be put in a slab.

 

 

[passion4comics]

They are contracted to grade it, not destroy it.

 

You are incorrect. They are contracted to certify it. If it's not authentic, it should not be put in a slab.

 

 

Slab it as a forgery or refuse to slab it. That protects everyone and gives the owner a chance to get a second opinion.

[DiceX]

They are contracted to grade it, not destroy it.

 

You are incorrect. They are contracted to certify it. If it's not authentic, it should not be put in a slab.

 

 

Slab it as a forgery or refuse to slab it. That protects everyone and gives the owner a chance to get a second opinion.

 

Or put a big red stamp on the front cover that says "FAKE" to remove all doubt for future suckers that will be screwed thinking it is a legit item.

 

 

[passion4comics]

I think you really have to take it on a case by case basis. It would depend on whether it is truly a bootleg, or something else.

 

In MOST cases, producing and selling bootlegs is thievery. If you feel comfortable buying stolen property, then go ahead.

 

I am always amazed how ethics is so conditional on this board.

 

Contrary to what the RIAA, MPAA or whoever else is screaming theft it's NOT theft. It's an infringement on the rights of the copyright holder. Art, comics, trading cards or whatever. This is remedied in most cases in a civil court, not a criminal court.

[passion4comics]

They are contracted to grade it, not destroy it.

 

You are incorrect. They are contracted to certify it. If it's not authentic, it should not be put in a slab.

 

 

Slab it as a forgery or refuse to slab it. That protects everyone and gives the owner a chance to get a second opinion.

 

Or put a big red stamp on the front cover that says "FAKE" to remove all doubt for future suckers that will be screwed thinking it is a legit item.

 

 

If it's legally confiscated and declared a forgery by the courts then yes. As a private entity I wouldn't do it because what if it wasn't a fake and they destroyed it or defaced it?

[mackenzie999]

Not to mention that just because one party deems something to be counterfeit doesn't make it indisputably so. By destroying someone else's property they take away his option for second, third, or fiftieth opinions.

 

edit: woops, already covered. I should refresh more often!

[Flaming_Telepath]

I think you really have to take it on a case by case basis. It would depend on whether it is truly a bootleg, or something else.

 

In MOST cases, producing and selling bootlegs is thievery. If you feel comfortable buying stolen property, then go ahead.

 

I am always amazed how ethics is so conditional on this board.

 

Contrary to what the RIAA, MPAA or whoever else is screaming theft it's NOT theft. It's an infringement on the rights of the copyright holder. Art, comics, trading cards or whatever. This is remedied in most cases in a civil court, not a criminal court.

 

So it doesn't take money out of the copyright holder's pocket?

[Boozad]

I think you really have to take it on a case by case basis. It would depend on whether it is truly a bootleg, or something else.

 

In MOST cases, producing and selling bootlegs is thievery. If you feel comfortable buying stolen property, then go ahead.

 

I am always amazed how ethics is so conditional on this board.

 

Contrary to what the RIAA, MPAA or whoever else is screaming theft it's NOT theft. It's an infringement on the rights of the copyright holder. Art, comics, trading cards or whatever. This is remedied in most cases in a civil court, not a criminal court.

 

So it doesn't take money out of the copyright holder's pocket?

 

Exactly, it's not copyright infringement whatsoever, it's theft. Copyright infringement is downloading comics to read without paying for them, downloading music from Limewire or wherever, playing CDs/DVDs in public places when it tells you not to. The clue is in the word infringe.

[passion4comics]

I think you really have to take it on a case by case basis. It would depend on whether it is truly a bootleg, or something else.

 

In MOST cases, producing and selling bootlegs is thievery. If you feel comfortable buying stolen property, then go ahead.

 

I am always amazed how ethics is so conditional on this board.

 

Contrary to what the RIAA, MPAA or whoever else is screaming theft it's NOT theft. It's an infringement on the rights of the copyright holder. Art, comics, trading cards or whatever. This is remedied in most cases in a civil court, not a criminal court.

 

So it doesn't take money out of the copyright holder's pocket?

 

If you walked up to the copyright holder and took money directly out of his personal pocket then yes. That's (NYC) a larceny. An infringement on a copyright is not theft or anything close to it.

[passion4comics]

I think you really have to take it on a case by case basis. It would depend on whether it is truly a bootleg, or something else.

 

In MOST cases, producing and selling bootlegs is thievery. If you feel comfortable buying stolen property, then go ahead.

 

I am always amazed how ethics is so conditional on this board.

 

Contrary to what the RIAA, MPAA or whoever else is screaming theft it's NOT theft. It's an infringement on the rights of the copyright holder. Art, comics, trading cards or whatever. This is remedied in most cases in a civil court, not a criminal court.

 

So it doesn't take money out of the copyright holder's pocket?

 

Exactly, it's not copyright infringement whatsoever, it's theft. Copyright infringement is downloading comics to read without paying for them, downloading music from Limewire or wherever, playing CDs/DVDs in public places when it tells you not to. The clue is in the word infringe.

 

Wait, I just lost what you were saying. What's theft? What are you using as an example?

[Flaming_Telepath]

I think you really have to take it on a case by case basis. It would depend on whether it is truly a bootleg, or something else.

 

In MOST cases, producing and selling bootlegs is thievery. If you feel comfortable buying stolen property, then go ahead.

 

I am always amazed how ethics is so conditional on this board.

 

Contrary to what the RIAA, MPAA or whoever else is screaming theft it's NOT theft. It's an infringement on the rights of the copyright holder. Art, comics, trading cards or whatever. This is remedied in most cases in a civil court, not a criminal court.

 

So it doesn't take money out of the copyright holder's pocket?

 

If you walked up to the copyright holder and took money directly out of his personal pocket then yes. That's (NYC) a larceny. An infringement on a copyright is not theft or anything close to it.

 

Whatever the law terms it as is unimportant...that's simply administration, no more.

 

The fact is that you are depriving an individual/corporation of monies that are due to them.

 

That's theft.

[comicwiz]

A bootleg sold without an appropriate disclaimer is in the same category as counterfeit. A bootleg sold with proper disclosure (i.e. proper attribution, accreditation to creative works, and licensed) is not likely, though it should disclaim the fact that it is unauthorized reproduction. Such items are not allowed on eBay, or in a person-to-person trading community even if disclaimed as such, so I don't particularly think they have a place in the forums marketplace.

 

Having said this, the term counterfeit is more appropriate for comics reproduced to fool people into believing their are real. I don't particularly like the fact that CGC grades counterfeits, especially because it seems to be unusually inconsistent with their policy on not grading mimeographed comics. Either grade them all, or don't grade any of them. Picking and choosing what CGC deems to be detectable forged/counterfeited works does a disservice to the hobby, and to believe that people won't crack the books out of the slab to try to recoup what they sunk into the book is wishful thinking.

 

While I think it would be harsh to destroy counterfeited/forged works when submitted for authentication, CGC should disclaim on their Website that they will not grade any counterfeited works, nor can they guarantee the books will be returned in the same condition (i.e. stamped as counterfeit) as a stern warning to anyone attempting to fool them.

[passion4comics]

I agree that a counterfeit should not be graded. In the case of a counterfeit FF1 you're not actually holding a FF1 so where does a grade and naming designation come in? Grading a counterfeit may be just a way to justify the grading fee. They can put in their TOS that there will be an evaluation charge which would cover real and counterfeit products. The Star Wars 1 comic was a Star Wars 1 and the notation was accurate that the price was changed.

 

A counterfeit comic creators intent is obvious; most of the time. Asking a private company to take action against a suspected counterfeit is above and beyond their scope of duty. It can also put them at risk if a second opinion states that the comic was not a counterfeit.

 

When the FBI confiscated a ton of artwork a little over 10 in a joint effort with other agencies overseas years ago there were real works of art among the fakes. They were all stamped "FALSO" on the reverse and sold at auction. This was because they had the legal right through due process to take and alter the property. The problem is that unscrupulous art dealers then framed the works (hiding the stamp) and sold them as originals.

 

 

[Sal]

Eh, it's only "theft" if the person buying the forgery would have bought the real thing if the forgery were not available.

 

You can't assume this is always the case, can you?

[Boozad]

I think you really have to take it on a case by case basis. It would depend on whether it is truly a bootleg, or something else.

 

In MOST cases, producing and selling bootlegs is thievery. If you feel comfortable buying stolen property, then go ahead.

 

I am always amazed how ethics is so conditional on this board.

 

Contrary to what the RIAA, MPAA or whoever else is screaming theft it's NOT theft. It's an infringement on the rights of the copyright holder. Art, comics, trading cards or whatever. This is remedied in most cases in a civil court, not a criminal court.

 

So it doesn't take money out of the copyright holder's pocket?

 

Exactly, it's not copyright infringement whatsoever, it's theft. Copyright infringement is downloading comics to read without paying for them, downloading music from Limewire or wherever, playing CDs/DVDs in public places when it tells you not to. The clue is in the word infringe.

 

Wait, I just lost what you were saying. What's theft? What are you using as an example?

[Flaming_Telepath]

Eh, it's only "theft" if the person buying the forgery would have bought the real thing if the forgery were not available.

 

You can't assume this is always the case, can you?

 

In all cases?

 

No, of course not.

 

In many cases?

 

Sure.

[Boozad]

Eh, it's only "theft" if the person buying the forgery would have bought the real thing if the forgery were not available.

 

You can't assume this is always the case, can you?

 

If the buyer doesn't know that the forgery isn't actually the genuine article, then it's theft on two counts.

[passion4comics]

Eh, it's only "theft" if the person buying the forgery would have bought the real thing if the forgery were not available.

 

You can't assume this is always the case, can you?

 

If the buyer doesn't know that the forgery isn't actually the genuine article, then it's theft on two counts.

 

It actually a conspiracy charge and whatever fraud charge the state has if the person knowingly sold the comic as authentic when he/she knew it wasn't. Theft would be the person with the comic showing up and taking the money from the buyer pocket and simply walking away (larceny or robbery depending on the victims level of resistance).

[Boozad]

Eh, it's only "theft" if the person buying the forgery would have bought the real thing if the forgery were not available.

 

You can't assume this is always the case, can you?

 

If the buyer doesn't know that the forgery isn't actually the genuine article, then it's theft on two counts.

 

It actually a conspiracy charge and whatever fraud charge the state has if the person knowingly sold the comic as authentic when he/she knew it wasn't. Theft would be the person with the comic showing up and taking the money from the buyer pocket and simply walking away (larceny or robbery depending on the victims level of resistance).

 

So fraud is not theft?