Mark Jewelers inserts... 19 19

[trademarkcomics]

My two cents:

For me, it has little to do with what's on the inserts. It has way more to do with the rarity of the inserts. So when Mark Warren states that if it was a Hostess insert he could see the value I think he's missing the point. There are three major reasons comics have value: Content(1st appearances, seminal events, etc), condition(no need to explain on this site) and rareness(simple supply vs demand). Just as with errors like double covers, mis-coloring, etc, I collect insert copies simply because they are harder to find(especially in high grade) than non-insert copies. It's simple math. 

Edited January 1, 2023 by trademarkcomics
Typo

[Cpt Kirk]

On 12/31/2022 at 7:32 PM, trademarkcomics said:

My two cents:

For me, it has little to do with what's on the inserts. It has way more to do with the rarity of the inserts. So when Mark Warren states that if it was a Hostess insert he could see the value I think he's missing the point. There are three major reasons comics have value: Content(1st appearances, seminal events, etc), condition(no need to explain on this site) and rareness(simple supply vs demand). Just as with errors like double covers, mis-coloring, etc, I collect insert copies simply because they are harder to find(especially in high grade) than non-insert copies. It's simple math. 

Good point on the high grade.  I saw earlier on this thread where someone said the jewelers tended to be in better condition because the insert helped make the comic more rigid. I believe it is true that the insert helps stiffen the comic book (especially the earlier jeweler inserts which were made of a heavier cardboard stock).  But when you think about what happened to jeweler variants, I can see why they are hard to find in high grade.  That's because most of them got shipped overseas to military PX's, sat on a rack in a military PX until someone bought them, and then they had to make their way back to the United States.   Add the fact that the oldest DC jeweler variants are now more than 35 years old, I can see why high grade (especially 9.0 and above) is hard to find when it comes to jeweler variants.   I was lucky enough to find an original owner collection that surfaced in Belgium where the guy plucked them off the rack at the PX and then immediately put them in storage.  I would say the majority of them are 9.4 to 9.8 (Batman, Detective, Superman, Action, and JLA.... I must have bought more than 200 of them... and a few of those got the slightest little creases in the corner of the comic books besause some enthusiastic postal employee managed to drop the box on it's corner....thus my statement about shipping them back to the U.S.).   Overall I have approximately 680 jeweler variants in those titles and have managed to get all but 10 or so in FN or better by continously upgrading them when a high grade copy came along.

[vaillant]

On 1/1/2023 at 1:32 AM, trademarkcomics said:

My two cents:

For me, it has little to do with what's on the inserts. It has way more to do with the rarity of the inserts. So when Mark Warren states that if it was a Hostess insert he could see the value I think he's missing the point. There are three major reasons comics have value: Content(1st appearances, seminal events, etc), condition(no need to explain on this site) and rareness(simple supply vs demand). Just as with errors like double covers, mis-coloring, etc, I collect insert copies simply because they are harder to find(especially in high grade) than non-insert copies. It's simple math. 

Rarity does not automatically mean desirability, anyway. As you implied, the reasons for value is inherent, but if you take out the content, rarity by itself is not a value indicator. Condition has also some objectiveness to it, as I like to remind when people despise well-kept copies. And as opposed to keep the graded books in cases, I continue to say CGC's valuable service is a professional estimate of grading, not an end in itself.

[trademarkcomics]

On 1/4/2023 at 7:16 AM, vaillant said:

Rarity does not automatically mean desirability, anyway. As you implied, the reasons for value is inherent, but if you take out the content, rarity by itself is not a value indicator. Condition has also some objectiveness to it, as I like to remind when people despise well-kept copies. And as opposed to keep the graded books in cases, I continue to say CGC's valuable service is a professional estimate of grading, not an end in itself.

True. I could produce a comic with a one issue print run and even though it's one-of-a-kind it would not be worth the paper and ink I used to print it because there would be zero market for it. But as Marvel's flagship title, there will always be a market for Amazing Spider-Man. And if I had to choose between a CGC 9.8 copy of #175 with a mark jeweler insert or without, the choice to me is clear.  

[vaillant]

On 1/5/2023 at 12:11 AM, trademarkcomics said:

True. I could produce a comic with a one issue print run and even though it's one-of-a-kind it would not be worth the paper and ink I used to print it because there would be zero market for it. But as Marvel's flagship title, there will always be a market for Amazing Spider-Man. And if I had to choose between a CGC 9.8 copy of #175 with a mark jeweler insert or without, the choice to me is clear.  

Yes, but it is also understandable that one might not particularly care for an insert which was not, technically, present in all the copies. As I said, the value of these inserts to me is that they give context within american culture of the period. A similar thing goes for editorial attachments (not just these related to the characters) here, there are collectors actively looking for the Italian Mickey Mouse (Topolino) with inserts, and willing to pay extra. This is a relatively recent thing, at least on large scale.

[Cpt Kirk]

On 1/4/2023 at 10:16 AM, vaillant said:

Rarity does not automatically mean desirability, anyway. As you implied, the reasons for value is inherent, but if you take out the content, rarity by itself is not a value indicator. Condition has also some objectiveness to it, as I like to remind when people despise well-kept copies. And as opposed to keep the graded books in cases, I continue to say CGC's valuable service is a professional estimate of grading, not an end in itself.

Amen brother!

[Cpt Kirk]

On 1/5/2023 at 11:41 AM, vaillant said:

Yes, but it is also understandable that one might not particularly care for an insert which was not, technically, present in all the copies. As I said, the value of these inserts to me is that they give context within american culture of the period. A similar thing goes for editorial attachments (not just these related to the characters) here, there are collectors actively looking for the Italian Mickey Mouse (Topolino) with inserts, and willing to pay extra. This is a relatively recent thing, at least on large scale.

Great comment.   This reminds me of the first time I noticed these Mark Jeweler inserts.  I think I was buying some back issues of Action Comics that were originally sold in the late 1970's.  I saw those slick ads in the centerfold and thought something like this to myself: "These inserts are ugly and they distract the flow of the comic book by being stuck in the center... I wonder if I these inserts were sold in all issues of this comic book, or do I instead need to try to find copies without the inserts?"   As someone said earlier, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.   In my case, 10 years later I started the crazy pursuit of trying to find every Mark Jeweler variant in the DC titles I collect, and I can tell you that ain't no easy task.

[trademarkcomics]

On 1/5/2023 at 8:41 AM, vaillant said:

Yes, but it is also understandable that one might not particularly care for an insert which was not, technically, present in all the copies. As I said, the value of these inserts to me is that they give context within american culture of the period. A similar thing goes for editorial attachments (not just these related to the characters) here, there are collectors actively looking for the Italian Mickey Mouse (Topolino) with inserts, and willing to pay extra. This is a relatively recent thing, at least on large scale.

Then they would also not understand why a 1/25 variant cover might fetch more than the regular copy, since "technically" they were not present on all copies.  Not everyone understands the appeal of rarity. But these same people were probably paying $20 for a roll of toilet paper in 2020. If something is super rare, a small percentage of buyers will be enough to drive the price up(like how a small percentage bought up all the toilet paper in 2020 making tp rare and valuable). In fact, in an auction if all you get are two bidders that can be enough to drive a price way higher than going market value.

And you cannot just put the inserts into regular copies without it being very obvious as I have proven earlier in this thread. So, the fact that they only reside in a very small portion of a particular issue's print run automatically makes the copies with the inserts more valuable regardless of any cultural impact they may have or even how large the percentage of potential buyers would be interested. Why else would an Amazing Spider-Man #252 CGC 9.0 Mark Jewelers go for nearly $600 in November while regular 9.0s went for an average of $200 in the same time period? Did that buyer spend $600 only for the American culture of jewelry inserts? Or possibly because there was no cheaper #252 CGC MJ insert copy available(limited availability=rarity)?

Right now they run from $600 for a 8.0 to $4000 for a 9.6--while regular copies go $200-500 for the same grade range. There are only 5 CGC ASM 252 MJIs in any grade(one is a 9.6), while there are MORE THAN 60 regular CGC 9.6s.  

Edited January 6, 2023 by trademarkcomics
Clarification

[vaillant]

On 1/6/2023 at 1:44 AM, trademarkcomics said:

Then they would also not understand why a 1/25 variant cover might fetch more than the regular copy, since "technically" they were not present on all copies.  Not everyone understands the appeal of rarity. But these same people were probably paying $20 for a roll of toilet paper in 2020. If something is super rare, a small percentage of buyers will be enough to drive the price up(like how a small percentage bought up all the toilet paper in 2020 making tp rare and valuable). In fact, in an auction if all you get are two bidders that can be enough to drive a price way higher than going market value.

And you cannot just put the inserts into regular copies without it being very obvious as I have proven earlier in this thread. So, the fact that they only reside in a very small portion of a particular issue's print run automatically makes the copies with the inserts more valuable regardless of any cultural impact they may have or even how large the percentage of potential buyers would be interested. Why else would an Amazing Spider-Man #252 CGC 9.0 Mark Jewelers go for nearly $600 in November while regular 9.0s went for an average of $200 in the same time period? Did that buyer spend $600 only for the American culture of jewelry inserts? Or possibly because there was no cheaper #252 CGC MJ insert copy available(limited availability=rarity)?

Right now they run from $600 for a 8.0 to $4000 for a 9.6--while regular copies go $200-500 for the same grade range. There are only 5 CGC ASM 252 MJIs in any grade(one is a 9.6), while there are MORE THAN 60 regular CGC 9.6s.  

As I have explained, I do not reason in terms of "CGC copies" (besides the fact that being registered in the census they can be checked for information): to me they are copies like all others, just professionally graded, useful especially if you do not trust a seller grading skills or think you maybe want to sell the book.

As far as the variants go, I might enjoy if there were few, when there were few, so if the original cover was so-so I could opt for the variant. But what they have become is what I call "artificial rarity": not interested at all in this.

[vaillant]

BTW, to me a book beyond 9.4 (Near Mint) is always a Near Mint, no matter if it is a 9.6, a 9.8 or whatever. The defects are negligible, for what I care, as I have had books graded but I always eventually break them out to have them browsable/readable. The few I did not was because they were Signature Series, and I regret having bought them, as they are costly books (FF #5 and #12).
In fact, if I could sell them and buy non SS copies, I’d be very glad!

[vaillant]

And I can’t see where the basis of a comparision between a variant cover and a commercial insert is: they are entirely different things, variant exists just to create collecting interest, which surely was not the goal of Marvel when they accepted to run the jewelers' advertising…

[awe4one]

Oh absolutely. I never collected the inserts for monetary gain. But they ARE different then the normal newsstand comics. And collectors seem drawn to different. I’ve sold bulk insert comics on eBay that may have gotten $1.99 an issue, at most, in a regular auction sold separately. I’ve been been averaging $10-15 an issue when sold in tens. So there is a demand for these issues. Not complaining. Just surprised.

Jim

On 1/5/2023 at 7:37 PM, vaillant said:

And I can’t see where the basis of a comparision between a variant cover and a commercial insert is: they are entirely different things, variant exists just to create collecting interest, which surely was not the goal of Marvel when they accepted to run the jewelers' advertising…

 

[Cpt Kirk]

On 1/5/2023 at 8:34 PM, vaillant said:

As I have explained, I do not reason in terms of "CGC copies" (besides the fact that being registered in the census they can be checked for information): to me they are copies like all others, just professionally graded, useful especially if you do not trust a seller grading skills or think you maybe want to sell the book.

As far as the variants go, I might enjoy if there were few, when there were few, so if the original cover was so-so I could opt for the variant. But what they have become is what I call "artificial rarity": not interested at all in this.

I concur.  After obtaining just about every variant ever made in the DC titles I collect, just this past month I said "enough is enough" and I decided to stop collecting the new variants (still going after the old variants like MJs though).  I started thinking of it like this:  even though I'm only collecting four titles (Batman, Superman, Detective and Action) I am adding about 6 inches of "thickness" to my collection evey month.... that's 6 feet of horizontal storage per year.... I will soon run out of space for these variants, plus I'm convinced that most of these variants will drastically lose their value over time (I noticed recently Batman 92 black/white sketch is now selling for less than half what the going price was when it came out, and it's been less than two years since it came out).

[awe4one]

On 1/5/2023 at 8:55 PM, Cpt Kirk said:

I concur.  After obtaining just about every variant ever made in the DC titles I collect, just this past month I said "enough is enough" and I decided to stop collecting the new variants (still going after the old variants like MJs though).  I started thinking of it like this:  even though I'm only collecting four titles (Batman, Superman, Detective and Action) I am adding about 6 inches of "thickness" to my collection evey month.... that's 6 feet of horizontal storage per year.... I will soon run out of space for these variants, plus I'm convinced that most of these variants will drastically lose their value over time (I noticed recently Batman 92 black/white sketch is now selling for less than half what the going price was when it came out, and it's been less than two years since it came out).

I consider manufactured variants a big scam to steal money from collectors. Exploited scams to get collectors to imagine these things will make them rich. Sorry state of comics and where we are today. I don’t buy new comics anymore because I think comics lost their appeal. Good comics that drew us in don’t have a standard. Today it’s what can I do a story that lasted six issues that could have been in one. That Graphic Novel is coming. Remember, one of the best series of comics happened in Amazing Spider-Man 121-122. Two issue that changed comics and showed what an impact of comics could have if written correctly. Wouldn’t happen today.

Jim

[trademarkcomics]

Wow! It's Amazing Spider-Man #300 with a Mark Jewelers insert! Only $2000! 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/115673119885?hash=item1aeea7bc8d:g:KcsAAOSwpcljwr4V&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAsLjyjNmCb%2Fk7c00zBTLl6PGzkZd0bO3OCEzHHOkrnh3UXW5%2F7Tu6RMs%2FwrhGUmV2gn7%2BzcbDz25PAk0q5ZM1bfGDVVWQVTEI%2Bn5tCBdu4ndkW0218lqnMkofXXQ%2B0kZNRtPptS1Hr85wylW%2B0BSTn6NzQA0Re0N1R3CXHEwYKvnNgSQeL2WUpF3FzXyTJzN4T42yMsCbFpfeHRReZmPjIcAiUI6NzozPlL6D6lBDmMQh|tkp%3ABk9SR6b_3JS2YQ

 

(Look closely near the staples and the lower right edge of the insert hanging out in the first pic...) 

Edited January 14, 2023 by trademarkcomics
More info

[Get Marwood & I]

On 1/14/2023 at 8:19 PM, trademarkcomics said:

(Look closely near the staples...) 

You'd like to think that anyone who would be prepared to pay that would know enough about inserts to know that it's a construct without checking the staples. 

[trademarkcomics]

On 1/14/2023 at 12:25 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

You'd like to think that anyone who would be prepared to pay that would know enough about inserts to know that it's a construct without checking the staples. 

Seller also has a New Mutants 98 "Mark Jewelers". (look at the insert hanging out, lol)

 

Terrible.

[trademarkcomics]

The NM 98 brings up a question: Lots of star stamps and received stamps but I have never seen a date stamp on a Mark Jewelers insert copy. Did that never happen?

[scburdet]

dumb question, are all the inserts in the same issue the same? It takes about 30 seconds to find a New Mutants 98 with a MJs that doesn't match this one. I don't know if/how much the inserts vary.

Edited January 14, 2023 by scburdet

[trademarkcomics]

On 1/14/2023 at 12:39 PM, scburdet said:

dumb question, are all the inserts in the same issue the same. It takes about 30 seconds to find a New Mutants 98 with a MJs that doesn't match this one. I don't know if/how much the inserts vary.

I'd say that's true for most issues, but I think there might be rare exceptions(like I heard that ASM #178 could have both the stiff cardboard inserts as well as the glossy ones).