Moderns that are heating up on ebay!
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On 12/6/2022 at 5:57 AM, catch21 said:

Market only decides value not what's 1st appearance, 1st appearance in cameo, 1st full appearance or predates. 

Then go back and read established criteria for 30+ years. Yes there are examples of where that area is grey, but 
until the last few years when card collectors and investors came back into the market this wasn't a problem. 

Hulk 180 will never be a thing. I would avoid the examples you listed and then there isnt a problem. 
 

Edited by fastballspecial
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On 12/6/2022 at 3:00 PM, 500Club said:

Oh, for sure.  But the colloquial use of ‘cameo’ to mean a minor first appearance has persisted, and is widely used and understood.  And, to @catch21s point, it serves as the verbal shortcut of ‘first appearance in cameo’.

No, I am saying using "cameo" as a verbal shortcut  for "1st appearance in cameo" confuses people. It is not widely understood. So far we had two people in this comic book thread define the dictionary version of cameo. None of the grading companies use or say the shortcut incorrectly in their labels.

Edited by catch21
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On 12/6/2022 at 3:06 PM, fastballspecial said:

Then go back and read established criteria for 30+ years. Yes there are examples of where that area is grey, but 
until the last few years when card collectors and investors came back into the market this wasn't a problem. 

Hulk 180 will never be a thing. I would avoid the examples you listed and then there isnt a problem. 
 

I did.   1. Green Lantern 25 was the higher value  for three years and was labeled 1st appearance of Jessica Cruz. Later it was changed 1st appearance in Cameo.  Justice League 31 is now labeled  1st full appearance of Jessica Cruz. Later the higher value changed Justice League 31.   2. Batman 655 labeled as 1st appearance in cameo Daiman  Wayne. Batman 656 labeled 1st full appearance of Daimen Wayne. The higher value remains Batman #655. 

Give me a time where the higher Value made the grading companies  or overstreet  change 1st appearance in cameo to 1st appearance.   Value and the type of appearance are independent. 

Edited by catch21
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On 12/6/2022 at 6:06 PM, fastballspecial said:

Then go back and read established criteria for 30+ years. Yes there are examples of where that area is grey, but 
until the last few years when card collectors and investors came back into the market this wasn't a problem. 

Hulk 180 will never be a thing. I would avoid the examples you listed and then there isnt a problem. 
 

The problem is that there are many examples.  I don't disagree that the market sides with wallets either and we all want money.  But the value someone places on something doesn't make it a truth.

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On 12/6/2022 at 4:23 PM, kimik said:

I like the fact that the market is deciding 1st cameo, 1st cover, 1st full appearance and even 2nd appearances are worth $$$ now. That gives multiple ways to profit from one new character. 

It does not. Reading the book does. Invincible Iron Man 7 the woman variant was labeled 1st appearance of Riri was the higher value book. Later changed to 1st appearance in Cameo while it was the higher book. Label changed Invincible Iron Man 9 to 1st full appearance of RIRI while Iron Man 7 was worth more. NOW the regular Invincible Iron Man 9 is worth more than the Invincible Iron Man 7 variant.

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On 12/6/2022 at 6:38 PM, catch21 said:

It does not. Reading the book does. Invincible Iron Man 7 the woman variant was labeled 1st appearance of Riri was the higher value book. Later changed to 1st appearance in Cameo while it was the higher book. Label changed Invincible Iron Man 9 to 1st full appearance of RIRI while Iron Man 7 was worth more. NOW the regular Invincible Iron Man 9 is worth more than the Invincible Iron Man 7 variant.

I don't disagree,  just thought I should mention that #7 with riri on the cover was not a "variant" it was a later printing, which only goes to show no one read it lol

 

Edited by ADAMANTIUM
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On 12/6/2022 at 6:21 PM, MrWeen said:

The problem is that there are many examples.  I don't disagree that the market sides with wallets either and we all want money.  But the value someone places on something doesn't make it a truth.

Yes, but to call your unbiased viewpoint is really hard here. I remember all the 1st app arguments you use to discuss and all the interesting books
you like that have light cameos and such.

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On 12/6/2022 at 4:46 PM, catch21 said:

No, I am saying using "cameo" as a verbal shortcut  for "1st appearance in cameo" confuses people. It is not widely understood. So far we had two people in this comic book thread define the dictionary version of cameo. None of the grading companies use or say the shortcut incorrectly in their labels.

For those of us long term collectors, it IS widely understood.

It’s also not hard to understand.  It was no problem for me as a beginning collector at age 11 to pick up the terminology.

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On 12/6/2022 at 5:21 PM, MrWeen said:

The problem is that there are many examples.  I don't disagree that the market sides with wallets either and we all want money.  But the value someone places on something doesn't make it a truth.

The market sides with wallets is a reflection of what the overall market desires.  People collectively end up paying more for what is most important and desirable to them.  Each individual collector gets a ‘vote’.  What you end up with is the book the market decides is the key book.

I agree that that doesn’t redefine what are truths, though.  A literal first appearance is a literal first appearance.  Period.  But the literal truth doesn’t define value, either.   Hence the fact there are many examples where literal first appearances aren’t valued as highly as a subsequent appearance.

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On 12/6/2022 at 6:49 PM, 500Club said:

The market sides with wallets is a reflection of what the overall market desires.  People collectively end up paying more for what is most important and desirable to them.  Each individual collector gets a ‘vote’.  What you end up with is the book the market decides is the key book.

I agree that that doesn’t redefine what are truths, though.  A literal first appearance is a literal first appearance.  Period.  But the literal truth doesn’t define value, either.   Hence the fact there are many examples where literal first appearances aren’t valued as highly as a subsequent appearance.

No that's not happens in comic collecting with graded books. You are making general statements without examples.

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On 12/5/2022 at 12:46 AM, Corona smith said:

A cameo is when a character makes an appearance in another characters book.

I've been saying that for 20 years . . . people don't change around here (even the impressionable newbs) :sumo:

 

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On 12/6/2022 at 7:17 PM, catch21 said:
On 12/6/2022 at 6:49 PM, 500Club said:

The market sides with wallets is a reflection of what the overall market desires.  People collectively end up paying more for what is most important and desirable to them.  Each individual collector gets a ‘vote’.  What you end up with is the book the market decides is the key book.

I agree that that doesn’t redefine what are truths, though.  A literal first appearance is a literal first appearance.  Period.  But the literal truth doesn’t define value, either.   Hence the fact there are many examples where literal first appearances aren’t valued as highly as a subsequent appearance.

No that's not happens in comic collecting with graded books. You are making general statements without examples.

You hear that 500Club, I wouldn't take that standing up! :peace:

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On 12/6/2022 at 8:17 PM, catch21 said:
On 12/6/2022 at 7:49 PM, 500Club said:

The market sides with wallets is a reflection of what the overall market desires.  People collectively end up paying more for what is most important and desirable to them.  Each individual collector gets a ‘vote’.  What you end up with is the book the market decides is the key book.

I agree that that doesn’t redefine what are truths, though.  A literal first appearance is a literal first appearance.  Period.  But the literal truth doesn’t define value, either.   Hence the fact there are many examples where literal first appearances aren’t valued as highly as a subsequent appearance.

No that's not happens in comic collecting with graded books. You are making general statements without examples.

Sure it does.  It’s basic economics.  EVERY book is subject to these market forces. (shrug)

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On 12/6/2022 at 5:38 PM, catch21 said:
On 12/6/2022 at 5:23 PM, kimik said:

I like the fact that the market is deciding 1st cameo, 1st cover, 1st full appearance and even 2nd appearances are worth $$$ now. That gives multiple ways to profit from one new character. 

It does not. Reading the book does. Invincible Iron Man 7 the woman variant was labeled 1st appearance of Riri was the higher value book. Later changed to 1st appearance in Cameo while it was the higher book. Label changed Invincible Iron Man 9 to 1st full appearance of RIRI while Iron Man 7 was worth more. NOW the regular Invincible Iron Man 9 is worth more than the Invincible Iron Man 7 variant.

You are missing my point. I don't care which one is deemed the true 1st appearance to have, or that it may change over time. All I care about is having multiple books I can make a premium on for the same new character.

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On 12/6/2022 at 9:47 PM, 500Club said:

Sure it does.  It’s basic economics.  EVERY book is subject to these market forces. (shrug)

I do not know what econonimics class you went to.  I was taught  market is how much an asset can be sold or bought. It does not determine the type of appearance.  I am still waiting for that example where the value of book changed the type of appearance.

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On 12/6/2022 at 11:24 PM, kimik said:

You are missing my point. I don't care which one is deemed the true 1st appearance to have, or that it may change over time. All I care about is having multiple books I can make a premium on for the same new character.

Right, You care about value. That's what I been saying.  If you care about value, you should check the book because that initial high value of first appearance could be just a hand or leg.

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