Comic book collecting with a foreign variant focus 20 20

[vaillant]

Let's say you are told you have a gift coming.... You as a Italian collector are sat down and put in front of you are two comics.....one is a Spiderman 129 in cgc 9.6 the other is the Italian equivilant the L' uomo ragno 149/1976 in cgc 9.6

 

I really need to read your great article in full, but I try to explain my collecting reasoning for now.

I thought it was clear from my post that it’s out of a question to me: the original edition is not only the most important (for whatever reason corroborating the choice) but it is – the word says it all – "original".

When I started picking up comic books in original edition I found difficulties in reading them because my english skills were still immature, but I found the edition "as it should be". As marmat ("ehilà, chissà se ci conosciamo!" ) explained, Editoriale Corno (the publisher which printed most of the Marvel silver age, for the US collectors, here) made the choice of having fortnight (instead of montlhy) publications, with two/three stories for issues.

Finding the original, I saw how the publication was conceived in its original form. With all the correct indicia, original lettering, choice of number of pages, kind of paper, et al. And this meant the most to me, although, for various reasons, one can be highly affectioned to a translated local edition (I am speaking 360° here, I mean this also for – say – a Tintin album in english, or a McKay's "Future Comics" issue with a "Saturno contro la Terra" episode).

 

So, to cut a long story short: as I started collecting original comic books, I stopped collecting italian editions, and as a result all my collections aren’t complete (except for "I Fantastici Quattro" which I had almost completed before switching).

Of course, I occasionally buy some italian old issue, but I think most of this comes from the affection you have for it, because it‘s part of your own personal story, but as the original edition can be properly read and understood, and it’s affordable and reachable, I see little point in choosing it over a translation.

If it’s an issue I am affectioned with, I would probably keep both, but having to choose, I’d surely choose the original.

 

Edited April 15, 2012 by vaillant

[lscomics]

Great article.

 

I'm a Signature Series collector myself, I just got into foreign variants in the last year or so. The reason being, I want to build a collection of comics that no one else can duplicate. There are so many collections out there that contain books like Hulk 181, Spidey 121 & 122 / 12 etc. even SS copies. I've taken it a step further by narrowing my focus to mainly SS foreign editions. I won't be able to get them all done due to cash flow but here's a few I've got so far.

 

 

Sorry about the large pics, I don't currently have those two uploaded to photobucket.

 

I've got a bunch more raw foreign stuff that I'll post pics of when I get a chance.

[vaillant]

Addenda: Having read selected passages, I have to make some observations.

 

The first comes regarding the fact of certain foreign readers preferring the original edition. I think the comparision between the original US versions and the UK editions may be pretty misleading. The reason for this is the language. Besides the different shades of American English and British (or Australian) english, we are speaking of the same language, and to me it seems natural that the US original is preferred over a UK edition, which in many cases can be simply seen as a slightly different reprint, even if the UK edition had a considerably lower print run.

 

Choosing a local edition in another language is an entirely different matter.

Of course, I can speak for Italy only, but Italy is an interesting case.

I assure you the majority (I would say a good 90-95%, to feel safe) of italian readers collectors have developed an interest in the original editions only because the publisher which used to print Marvel went out of business (around 1982-83). We had to wait up to 1987-90 (excluding isolated exceptions, and attempts) to have once again a publisher (or more) consistently translating Marvel titles.

It appears the interest for original editions was mostly motivated by the absence of italian translations, and this was the case for many readers, which stopped buying originals as the local editions restarted on a continued basis.

But there was a part of readers (me included) which may represent a pretty smaller percentage, which became so fascinated with the original editions by getting to see and know them, that decided to privilege the originals.

 

This, in my opinion, which is also corroborated by documented facts, since I have lived the phenomenon between 1983 and now, has little to do with the Internet.

Of course, the Internet made possible a kind and a scope of collecting which was unthinkable before, but speaking of Italy the two points you have made up (the Internet influence and English literateness supported by educational systems abroad) are not so consistent. We are not – generally speaking – an "English literate" population. Up to the 1960s-1970s, French and German were often preferred over English to be taught in school.

I was speaking the other day with a priest (born in 1924) and from what I get, people of that generation, even people which studied, used to learn French (besides Latin and Greek) at their best (German was out of the question, since our alliance with nazi Germany was problematic to say the least).

My generation (born 1969) became more accustomed to English, thanks also to professional or hobby-related issues (informatics and music come to mind), but in general I would say the majority of readers in Italy prefer collecting italian translated editions.

 

Younger people (teenagers up to people in their mid-20s) prefer japanese comics (feeling probably some specific affinity due to many factors), but the more limited audience of younger readers and collectors go always for the italian translated editions.

 

These are my considerations, for now.

Edited April 15, 2012 by vaillant

[Ogami]

I read the first three pages of your article and look forward to returning to finish it.

 

Some thoughts thus far:

 

1. Get someone here to help you edit the piece in exchange for a free book. It will be worth the price to have fresh, educated eyes on your piece.

 

2. Remove the line, "forward thinking collectors" in discussing the two collectors who have decided to collect foreign keys. Your bias is showing, as if I am not mistaken, you are one of the two.

 

3. The comic book collecting community has followed the book collecting community, and I argue, rightfully so, in that true First Editions, from the publisher of the language of the market they were published for, will almost always have more value than reprints of any type, foreign or domestic.

 

All the best! Plan to finish the article respond some more.

[vaillant]

@Ogami: What are "educated eyes"? Are you referring to the form?

 

The comic book collecting community has followed the book collecting community, and I argue, rightfully so, in that true First Editions, from the publisher of the language of the market they were published for, will almost always have more value than reprints of any type, foreign or domestic.

 

I think this goes without saying, no?

[TheAmazing R.J.S.]

Wow Mate, just finished reading your article again I think you nailed it by knowing everything about the foreign variant world !!! Thanks for doing this again (thumbs u we the comic collectors need to know & understand about other types of comics out there, we can enjoy <3 Who know's with this artical buzz you made, maybe others will share there collection with us or just have fun starting out tracking down there favorite covers, like me

 

Great job buddy,

[Barbarian]

Let's say you are told you have a gift coming.... You as a Italian collector are sat down and put in front of you are two comics.....one is a Spiderman 129 in cgc 9.6 the other is the Italian equivilant the L' uomo ragno 149/1976 in cgc 9.6

 

You can only have one? Which one do you take?

 

I´d take the CGC 9.6 ASM 129 and sell it for a ridiculous amount of money.

 

Then I would take that money to travel through Italy for a couple of months, drink wine, eat pizza and learn Italian from my new super hot Italian girlfriend.

 

I would then proceed in buying the Italian CGC 9.6 L´uomo Ragno 149, crack it open and then read it (thumbs u

 

[Chespirito]

Very nice and informative ! But it's "1st appearance of the Punisher" not "apearance" (thumbs u

 

Tomato...tomatoe....

 

I just like how books look next to each other.....

 

 

 

NOTE: Saved images, not all my books

[bluechip]

Foreign editions can be fascinating and I find them especially interesting when the covers are tweaked (and sometimes the story, as well) to reflect the local mores and/or political situation.

 

If anyone has original first-in-country publications of FF1 or ASM 1 or TOS39 I will pay competitively.

 

Also interested in other specific issues, partial list: FF 1, 2, 4, 15, 19, 21, 22, 23, 25, 26, 52 and annual 2; ASM 1, 9, 25, 54, 59, 68, 94, annual 5, spectacular spider-man 1 and 1 (if those exist; Sgt. Fury 1, 13, 18, 19, 64, 75; silver surfer 1, 10, 17, 18. Dr. Strange 169, Strange Tales 135, TOS 39, 45, Sub-Mariner 1, 39.

Edited April 15, 2012 by bluechip

[Chespirito]

I actually think I have the TOS 39 in Japanese... As part of a three or four issue book..

[vaillant]

If anyone has original first-in-country publications of FF1 or ASM 1 or TOS39 I will pay competitively.

 

I can speak for, and if you wish, help you, just about my country (Italy).

The first edition of Fantastic Four #1 and Fantastic Four #5 aren’t from the respective long-term "I Fantastici Quattro", but came out in the late 1960s within supplements to the magazine "Linus". In fact, they are the absolutely better printed versions of those stories I have seen (in black and white). I have the first episode of Fantastic Four and I treasure it.

They aren’t so difficult to find (and not so expensive), and since I have to look for the issue with the FF#5 (Doctor Doom) for me as well, if you wish I will see if I find them also for you.

 

As per the regular issues, I Fantastici Quattro #1 and L’Uomo Ragno #1 are a little costly in high-grade, but the covers are nothing special: they aren’t tweaked at all, they just use different images.

 

if those exist; Sgt. Fury 1, 13, 18, 19, 64, 75; silver surfer 1, 10, 17, 18. Dr. Strange 169, Strange Tales 135, TOS 39, 45, Sub-Mariner 1, 39.

 

Early Sgt. Fury issues have been published in Italy before Editoriale Corno started to publish the Marvel Age as a whole. They came out from a little publisher called Casa editrice "Le Maschere" and they are pretty rare (I have never seen them).

The full Silver Surfer series was published as an accompanying feature in the pages of the italian edition of Daredevil (called "Devil" in Italy).

Doctor Strange #169 will already be yours if you find a copy of L’Uomo Ragno #1, since the Doc was published as an accompanying feature (with a considerable time-lapse) side by side with early Spidey adventures.

See here: http://atomik67.altervista.org/COMICS-EDITORI/CORNO/UR-DOCUMENTI/UR_Crono1.htm

The full Sub-Mariner run has been (aptly) featured in the pages of I Fantastici Quattro.

 

Hope this helps, if I can be of help, send me a PM.

Edited April 15, 2012 by vaillant

[Barbarian]

I just like how books look next to each other.....

 

Here´s 1 not on that list. Found out about it recently

 

[marmat]

If anyone has original first-in-country publications of FF1 or ASM 1 or TOS39 I will pay competitively.

 

I can speak for, and if you wish, help you, just about my country (Italy).

The first edition of Fantastic Four #1 and Fantastic Four #5 aren’t from the respective long-term "I Fantastici Quattro", but came out in the late 1960s within supplements to the magazine "Linus". In fact, they are the absolutely better printed versions of those stories I have seen (in black and white). I have the first episode of Fantastic Four and I treasure it.

They aren’t so difficult to find (and not so expensive), and since I have to look for the issue with the FF#5 (Doctor Doom) for me as well, if you wish I will see if I find them also for you.

 

As per the regular issues, I Fantastici Quattro #1 and L’Uomo Ragno #1 are a little costly in high-grade, but the covers are nothing special: they aren’t tweaked at all, they just use different images.

 

if those exist; Sgt. Fury 1, 13, 18, 19, 64, 75; silver surfer 1, 10, 17, 18. Dr. Strange 169, Strange Tales 135, TOS 39, 45, Sub-Mariner 1, 39.

 

Early Sgt. Fury issues have been published in Italy before Editoriale Corno started to publish the Marvel Age as a whole. They came out from a little publisher called Casa editrice "Le Maschere" and they are pretty rare (I have never seen them).

The full Silver Surfer series was published as an accompanying feature in the pages of the italian edition of Daredevil (called "Devil" in Italy).

Doctor Strange #169 will already be yours if you find a copy of L’Uomo Ragno #1, since the Doc was published as an accompanying feature (with a considerable time-lapse) side by side with early Spidey adventures.

See here: http://atomik67.altervista.org/COMICS-EDITORI/CORNO/UR-DOCUMENTI/UR_Crono1.htm

The full Sub-Mariner run has been (aptly) featured in the pages of I Fantastici Quattro.

 

Hope this helps, if I can be of help, send me a PM.

 

Man, you are a pit of knowledge (worship)

[vaillant]

Man, you are a pit of knowledge \(worship\) \(worship\)

 

, Matteo, this sounds funny said by a fellow italian…

BTW, you know surely a lot more than me about the current comics market.

[bluechip]

If anyone has original first-in-country publications of FF1 or ASM 1 or TOS39 I will pay competitively.

 

I can speak for, and if you wish, help you, just about my country (Italy).

The first edition of Fantastic Four #1 and Fantastic Four #5 aren’t from the respective long-term "I Fantastici Quattro", but came out in the late 1960s within supplements to the magazine "Linus". In fact, they are the absolutely better printed versions of those stories I have seen (in black and white). I have the first episode of Fantastic Four and I treasure it.

They aren’t so difficult to find (and not so expensive), and since I have to look for the issue with the FF#5 (Doctor Doom) for me as well, if you wish I will see if I find them also for you.

 

As per the regular issues, I Fantastici Quattro #1 and L’Uomo Ragno #1 are a little costly in high-grade, but the covers are nothing special: they aren’t tweaked at all, they just use different images.

 

if those exist; Sgt. Fury 1, 13, 18, 19, 64, 75; silver surfer 1, 10, 17, 18. Dr. Strange 169, Strange Tales 135, TOS 39, 45, Sub-Mariner 1, 39.

 

Early Sgt. Fury issues have been published in Italy before Editoriale Corno started to publish the Marvel Age as a whole. They came out from a little publisher called Casa editrice "Le Maschere" and they are pretty rare (I have never seen them).

The full Silver Surfer series was published as an accompanying feature in the pages of the italian edition of Daredevil (called "Devil" in Italy).

Doctor Strange #169 will already be yours if you find a copy of L’Uomo Ragno #1, since the Doc was published as an accompanying feature (with a considerable time-lapse) side by side with early Spidey adventures.

See here: http://atomik67.altervista.org/COMICS-EDITORI/CORNO/UR-DOCUMENTI/UR_Crono1.htm

The full Sub-Mariner run has been (aptly) featured in the pages of I Fantastici Quattro.

 

Hope this helps, if I can be of help, send me a PM.

 

You definitely have a lot of knowledge.

 

PMS on the way.

 

 

[Chespirito]

I just like how books look next to each other.....

 

Here´s 1 not on that list. Found out about it recently

 

I had a feeling somebody would do that ...

I could only pick from 16 blocks or 25 blocks on photobucket; I left one out, but it wasn't the one you posted...Nice!!!

[vaillant]

You definitely have a lot of knowledge.

 

PMS on the way.

 

@bluechip: Thanks, but I assure you it’s less than average.

 

Just to make sure: OK for the issues which you care about, but do not forget L’Uomo Ragno #29:

http://www.fumetto-online.it/it/corno-editoriale-uomo-ragno-29-uomo-ragno-29-c17897000290.php

 

(if interested you can buy it here, I think).

 

It features a different cover than its correspondant Amazing Spider-Man #35:

 

 

which, apparently, was a discarded early Ditko version, sent (by mistake?) to the italian publisher, as they worked from b&w printouts (recolored for the italian editions), and not from film.

 

I think the italian, "original cover" is better.

Edited April 15, 2012 by vaillant

[vaillant]

And this one is the funniest. Capitan America #9:

 

 

featuring an – ahem – "adaptation" of the original cover, from Strange Tales #114, for a non-matching content (heh, it wasn’t easy to supply original covers for the italian Cap, since he shared "Tales of Suspense" with Iron Man…)

 

[Define999]

Let's say you are told you have a gift coming.... You as a Italian collector are sat down and put in front of you are two comics.....one is a Spiderman 129 in cgc 9.6 the other is the Italian equivilant the L' uomo ragno 149/1976 in cgc 9.6

 

I really need to read your great article in full, but I try to explain my collecting reasoning for now.

I thought it was clear from my post that it’s out of a question to me: the original edition is not only the most important (for whatever reason corroborating the choice) but it is – the word says it all – "original".

When I started picking up comic books in original edition I found difficulties in reading them because my english skills were still immature, but I found the edition "as it should be". As marmat ("ehilà, chissà se ci conosciamo!" ) explained, Editoriale Corno (the publisher which printed most of the Marvel silver age, for the US collectors, here) made the choice of having fortnight (instead of montlhy) publications, with two/three stories for issues.

Finding the original, I saw how the publication was conceived in its original form. With all the correct indicia, original lettering, choice of number of pages, kind of paper, et al. And this meant the most to me, although, for various reasons, one can be highly affectioned to a translated local edition (I am speaking 360° here, I mean this also for – say – a Tintin album in english, or a McKay's "Future Comics" issue with a "Saturno contro la Terra" episode).

 

So, to cut a long story short: as I started collecting original comic books, I stopped collecting italian editions, and as a result all my collections aren’t complete (except for "I Fantastici Quattro" which I had almost completed before switching).

Of course, I occasionally buy some italian old issue, but I think most of this comes from the affection you have for it, because it‘s part of your own personal story, but as the original edition can be properly read and understood, and it’s affordable and reachable, I see little point in choosing it over a translation.

If it’s an issue I am affectioned with, I would probably keep both, but having to choose, I’d surely choose the original.

 

Awesome! Thanks for comments! Sorry, I must have misunderstood your answer… I completely respect the decision that most collectors would choose the American 129. In fact 90% percent of the collector in me would take the American original. I own the raw book myself and I love it! Let me explain a little bit about the 10% of me that wouldn’t however…

 

About a year ago I decided I wanted to seek out the Italian 129.. Sure enough I found one on Italian ebay, it was beat up pretty bad!

It had chunks taken out of the cover and was generally in a very poor state. I decided to pass… I think it was like 4 euros…. Cheap and the guy would even ship to America! I thought about it and decided against it. Much of the L' UOMO RAGNO run is on Italian ebay….. key books too. So I decided to wait figuring another one would pop up soon. Guess what? I have a spent the past year actively seeking this book in any grade. No dice….. Can’t find one for sale anywhere. Maybe if I could trawl the comic shops of Italy daily it wouldn’t be a problem? But, for me an American collector…. Its just not available to me…. Some of these foreigns seem to be soooo freakin rare in the marketplace. Now I state in the article rarity doesn’t necessarily mean valuable, but for the foreign variant collector not choosing to pull the trigger on a book means possible not having one for your collection now or possibly even ever!

 

speaking of that! If you could help me source one I would be unbelievably greateful! Expect a PM from me soon….. (thumbs u

 

The American 129 in 9.6 though is a different story. I haven’t seen the census lately but I am assuming it would pop up in a auction on the web probably pretty regularly? I don’t know for sure…. I could be talking out of my ... but I am thinking all I would need is money. I don’t have it right now but I bet with the right amount of money I could scare up a spidey 129 in 9.6 very easily. Probably right here on the boards I could find one in a week. This book is available, it will be available tomorrow and in the far future. How are the bronze age Italian books being stored? Will there still be large amounts in the future to purchase? I just don’t know if they will? I hope so, what do you think? Are Italian collectors storing there bronze age books with love?

 

Now, even with an endless amount of money and time I question whether I could find a Italian 129 variant/foreign reprint whatever its classification in 9.6? maybe not even in 9.2 or up? That 9.6 Italian book could possibly be the only one in existence. That 10% of me that would grab the Italian book starts to argue with the other 90% that wants the American book.

 

Let me tell you another story… I am currently actively seeking out the Arabic Batman 227 variant. I know that many books from the Batman/tec run exist in the Arabic language variants printed in Lebanon….

 

I have spent countless hours researching, searching, and contemplating this damn 227 variant book! This book is my white buffalo, it is the Yeti, or bigfoot…. Could even be a chupacabra ? This drive is the gist of this type of collecting….

 

I will ask myself another hypothetical question? If a Batman 227 in 9.2 was sitting in front of me and a Arabic 227 variant in raw fine+? I can tell you with certainty I would run out of that room with my Arabic 227 cackling like a crazy person!

I can’t speak for all foreign variant collectors but at least for me and foreigns I don’t chase specific grades, price guide value, or mainstream popularity. I do sometimes chase mythical beasts…. Only rumored to exist, and after a long “hunt” when you find this beast you capture it or slay it whichever metaphore suits your fancy! The “hunt”, rarity and novelty speak to foreign variant collecting I think…

In saying all of that I still can’t argue for or against the choice about which 129 book any individual collector wouldchoose? I can only explain why that 10% of my collecting being would want the Italian version.

 

I think the Italians ability to combine multiple issues makes them very interesting indeed… the French did a lot of combining as well. In the long run it ends up creating a lot of variants that do not have the corresponding American cover art. This makes the Italian variants with the desired cover art all the more impressive to me as a collector. As a example you had a 1 in three chance the cover you wanted on your variant was there. How cool from a american perspective....

 

Much of what was written in this article is generalization coming from my experience and by no means am I stating everything as fact. Just a culmination of my research so far and subject to evolution, though I will say I am itching to move onto my next project. It is awesome foreign collectors are corroborating or proving false some of the statements made by the article! Thanks vaillant! (thumbs u

[Define999]

I read the first three pages of your article and look forward to returning to finish it.

 

Some thoughts thus far:

 

1. Get someone here to help you edit the piece in exchange for a free book. It will be worth the price to have fresh, educated eyes on your piece.

 

I actually had an old editor friend edit the main body copy. Not the image text though… I am not really a writer. I am a graphic designer by trade… English class wasn’t my best subject… Is it the grammar that you take issue with or the actual structure of the writing. Grammar can be fixed the structure would mean a re-write. I would hope its 12th grade level at least? I don’t expect it to be a master’s thesis or anything but if it’s the structure that’s poor maybe I need to re-think this whole article thing?

 

2. Remove the line, "forward thinking collectors" in discussing the two collectors who have decided to collect foreign keys. Your bias is showing, as if I am not mistaken, you are one of the two.

 

Of course there is some bias, this foreign thing is something I have dedicated huge swaths of time and research to… my intention wasn’t AP style complete objectivity but maybe I need to include more negatives and pitfalls to this specific collecting type?

Also I think my ego is about average sized but not that large! I am not talking about myself in that paragraph….The two forward thinking collectors are boardies that I met here that mentored me in this type of collecting. I learned a great deal from them and I respect them a lot. When I got it in my head about writing this article I did a lot of research into the "key based type" of foreign collecting and I did not find many people doing this "type" before these two, in fact I didn’t find any? Now I could be wrong but I think forward thinking is a good adjective that describes these guys…. It takes forward thinking to buck the normal trends and tread in places no one really has gone before. These guys took the obsession with specific keys and pushed it to a whole new level!

You know you are right though it would be very easy to just remove “forward thinking” from the article to make it more subjective.

 

 

3. The comic book collecting community has followed the book collecting community, and I argue, rightfully so, in that true First Editions, from the publisher of the language of the market they were published for, will almost always have more value than reprints of any type, foreign or domestic.

I agree this is the general case, I don’t think I am making a case otherwise though… I talk about bias and irony but the fact still remains the American books will always be more valuable. My argument isn’t necessarily that this shouldn’t be, in fact I state in the article that most foreign variant collectors prefer this price discrepancy…. Value is up to individual collectors to decide. For instance above in my answer to vaillant I state I would take a Arabic 227 raw over a traditional Adams 227 in 9.2. I think the rarity and novelty of the Arabic book overtakes the value of the 9.2 227 for me. This is my personal belief….Is this forward thinking? I bet many here would call me bat-sheet crazy! Personally I think there is a fine line between forward thinking and crazy…. Many called the Wright brothers crazy… but in the end passion and balls rewarded the Wright brothers. So in the end I would hope the same “passion and balls” combo rewards the collectors willing to take this leap of faith with their collections.

 

All the best! Plan to finish the article respond some more.

 

Thanks! I appreciate the help! (thumbs u

Edited April 15, 2012 by Define999