Jayman Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 Hi; I got another little manafacturing error that I have been wandering about for a while. I have two comics a Defenders 50 and a Marvel Tales 82 and I did have a Peter Parker 7 that all have two sets of staples in other words two at the top and two at the bottom what I found strange about this is that one set of staples is inside the cover and the other set holds the cover on and all three of these comics are like that. It is like the comic was stapled together without the cover and then they sent it back through and stapled a cover over it did this ever happen Cosmic, I asked DiceX the same question a few months ago. Here is his reply: I received the book today. It looks to me like it was a "hand bound reject". I'll try to explain it... A publisher requires a certain number of books to be produced. During the bindery run, they have enough raw product to produce the run + a percentage predicted by the bindery allowed for waste. Say the run is 100,000 books and the bindery expects 3% waste...They receive 103,000 books worth of raw product. During the run there are books that jam up in the binder, or have odd flaws (untrimmed, unstapled, no cover, etc.). Those books are stacked to the side until the end of the run. When the raw product has been depleated, if the count doesn't add up to what the publisher ordered, they have to find a way to fill the order. They go through the "reject" skid to find any books that can be salvaged. There is usually nothing wrong with them, they just have been produced incorrectly. They take those books and piece together what they can. These books are bound by hand, stitched (stapled) by hand, then hand trimmed on a flatbed cutter. Whatever they have to do on a book by book basis. After "pulling rejects", if the order still has not been filled, they have to go back to press to run enough raw pieces to finish it off. The book you sent looks like it was produced without a cover. The body of the book had already been stapled, so a fresh cover was placed on the book and stitched onto the body. (The second set of staples) The staples are done by hand, so that would explain why they were off centered. There are no other staple holes in the cover, so it was definately a raw cover that was placed on the book. Afterwards it was hand trimmed on a flatbed. No doubt in my mind that the book left the factory this way. I don't know if this book would have passed through CGC without a purple label, because I don't know if they would have been able to tell it was a factory error. I have a House of Mystery issue like described above and always wondered why it was stapled on the inside and outside. Thanks David for re-posting and DiceX for the answer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiceX Posted December 1, 2004 Author Share Posted December 1, 2004 If you have something like this, make sure it has factory staples in it. You can compare it to the other staples at the center of the book. I've seen books where the cover pulled through the staples, and it was stapled back on by the owner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stronguy Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 I have a copy of X-Men #94 (and some other books) where the Mark Jeweler insert is double stapled. The guts and the MJI have 1 set of staples and the cover and the guts have another. I'll post a picture of it later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FFB Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 I haven't read this thread in a while, so I went back to rereading it. This is just plain one of the best threads in the entire forum. Thanks Dice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiceX Posted February 12, 2005 Author Share Posted February 12, 2005 I haven't read this thread in a while, so I went back to rereading it. This is just plain one of the best threads in the entire forum. Thanks Dice. It was my pleasure. And...your idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inhuman Fiend Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 DiceX...I'm new to the forum and like everyone else have found this thread fascinating.Thanks for your amazing insight! Maybe we can expand on the topic further: Since I'm guessing almost all of us has several comics with these common production errors, it would be awesome if we could establish some sort of consensus as to how much each of these errors should deduct from the overall grade of the comic. Any ideas how we could do this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosmic-spider-man Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 (edited) I have another little production flaw that I have wondered about for some time. Their are several examples of Marvel price variants where their is a ghost of the orginal price where the variant price is. The best know example of this is the Amazing Spider-Man #155 on the 30 cent variant of this issue you can still see a ghost of the still only 25c in the blue ink behind the price. Well what I want to know is why can you still see the "still only 25c" ? When they printed several different price verisions of the same comic, did they just cover up the orginal price to make the extra plates for the other verisions and maybe the old price showed through a little bit? Weren't the price, tital, issue number and Marvel Comics Group logo at the top all just paste on's to the orginal art back in the late 1970's. If so would it not make more sence to just change the price box than to put one over the other? Is it safe to assume that on this ASM 155 that the 30 cent variant was printed after the "Still only 25c" one because of this, or is it still possible that the 30 cent one was printed first? I guess it could just mean the Still only 25c plate was made first but does that mean they were printed first? I hope my pictures are good enough to see the ghost and I have some more examples I can post if anyone is interested. I appreciate it if you guys could enlighten me on this Thanks Terry Edited March 13, 2005 by cosmic-spider-man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FFB Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 As a Spidey collector myself, I have often wondered the same thing about that ghosted price tag. Hopefully someone can answer it? I have another little production flaw that I have wondered about for some time. Their are several examples of Marvel price variants where their is a ghost of the orginal price where the variant price is. The best know example of this is the Amazing Spider-Man #155 on the 30 cent variant of this issue you can still see a ghost of the still only 25c in the blue ink behind the price. Well what I want to know is why can you still see the "still only 25c" ? When they printed several different price verisions of the same comic, did they just cover up the orginal price to make the extra plates for the other verisions and maybe the old price showed through a little bit? Weren't the price, tital, issue number and Marvel Comics Group logo at the top all just paste on's to the orginal art back in the late 1970's. If so would it not make more sence to just change the price box than to put one over the other? Is it safe to assume that on this ASM 155 that the 30 cent variant was printed after the "Still only 25c" one because of this, or is it still possible that the 30 cent one was printed first? I guess it could just mean the Still only 25c plate was made first but does that mean they were printed first? I hope my pictures are good enough to see the ghost and I have some more examples I can post if anyone is interested. I appreciate it if you guys could enlighten me on this Thanks Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosmic-spider-man Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 (edited) Hear is another example of the Marvel price variants with the GHOST of the orginal price in the background. It is a Captain America #214 and the ghost price is on both the Direct Market one and the 35 cent price variant I wish I had a UK one to see if it is also on it I would guess it is. any ideals? Edited March 13, 2005 by cosmic-spider-man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sterlingcomics Posted March 31, 2005 Share Posted March 31, 2005 Mr. Production Defect Expert, I need a question answered on my HoM Dollar Comic. I'm wondering how CGC would interpret this tear at the bottom of the spine? Larger pic can be found here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiceX Posted March 31, 2005 Author Share Posted March 31, 2005 I have another little production flaw that I have wondered about for some time. Their are several examples of Marvel price variants where their is a ghost of the orginal price where the variant price is. The best know example of this is the Amazing Spider-Man #155 on the 30 cent variant of this issue you can still see a ghost of the still only 25c in the blue ink behind the price. Well what I want to know is why can you still see the "still only 25c" ? When they printed several different price verisions of the same comic, did they just cover up the orginal price to make the extra plates for the other verisions and maybe the old price showed through a little bit? Weren't the price, tital, issue number and Marvel Comics Group logo at the top all just paste on's to the orginal art back in the late 1970's. If so would it not make more sence to just change the price box than to put one over the other? Is it safe to assume that on this ASM 155 that the 30 cent variant was printed after the "Still only 25c" one because of this, or is it still possible that the 30 cent one was printed first? I guess it could just mean the Still only 25c plate was made first but does that mean they were printed first? I hope my pictures are good enough to see the ghost and I have some more examples I can post if anyone is interested. I appreciate it if you guys could enlighten me on this Thanks Terry Whoah! I missed one! This "ghosting" comes from the fact that they only changed the black plate to change the price. Ink is printed in this order...Black, Cyan, Magenta, Yellow. Due to the length of the run, the area that is ghosted in the cyan plate is because that area is "sensitive" from 200,000(?) impressions on top of that black ink. Meaning, the blue plate has printed that solid screen on top of an area that *at one time* had black text printing there. When the black text was changed, the blue still printed a "ghost" of the old black text because it made the plate sensitive to ink in that area. Think of making Easter Eggs when you write on an egg with a white crayon, then dip it in the dye. However in the case of these printing plates, this area will *attract* more ink, instead of *repel* it as on the Easter Egg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiceX Posted March 31, 2005 Author Share Posted March 31, 2005 Mr. Production Defect Expert, I need a question answered on my HoM Dollar Comic. I'm wondering how CGC would interpret this tear at the bottom of the spine? Larger pic can be found here. I don't work for CGC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drbanner Posted March 31, 2005 Share Posted March 31, 2005 Mr. Production Defect Expert, I need a question answered on my HoM Dollar Comic. I'm wondering how CGC would interpret this tear at the bottom of the spine? Larger pic can be found here. I've submitted dozens of dollar books and gotten many 9.6's and even a few 9.8's. I've received 9.4's with noticable bindery tears, and the one pictured below with a tiny bindery tear. That said, your copy has a chip actually missing, right? I don't see that getting a 9.4 but then again, on any given day... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiceX Posted March 31, 2005 Author Share Posted March 31, 2005 I would think the Dollar Comics would be very prone to bindery tears due to the fact that it's a saddle stitched book. That many pages with a staple in the middle is a nightmare to produce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drbanner Posted March 31, 2005 Share Posted March 31, 2005 I would think the Dollar Comics would be very prone to bindery tears due to the fact that it's a saddle stitched book. That many pages with a staple in the middle is a nightmare to produce. Indeed, the defect is ubiquitous on them...and the ones that are "taller" than other books of the era are inevitably beat up on the top edge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosmic-spider-man Posted April 1, 2005 Share Posted April 1, 2005 Thanks DiceX that makes good sense. So the blue plate basically has the first black plate image worn into it from the extremes of printing 200,000 plus copy's and then when they run the second & possible third black plate with the price changes with the same blue plate the original black plate will show up in the blue plate. I going to check back through my examples of this and see if I can find evidence of this in other locations other than just on the price . Well I guess this answers a question I have wondered about for some time the normal price Marvel's of that time must have been printed before the price variants. But theirs still that Howard the Duck #15 with the pink Godzilla page I posted on hear a while back which was in all the 35 cent variants of that issue I have seen. Is it very likely that they may have changed the page plates after they had already printed most of the run without the error and just the last few 1000 or so had this error? I would have thought it would have occurred at the start of a run what do you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiceX Posted April 1, 2005 Author Share Posted April 1, 2005 But theirs still that Howard the Duck #15 with the pink Godzilla page I posted on hear a while back which was in all the 35 cent variants of that issue I have seen. Is it very likely that they may have changed the page plates after they had already printed most of the run without the error and just the last few 1000 or so had this error? I would have thought it would have occurred at the start of a run what do you think. It could have been the plates on the Godzilla ad were worn, and when they shut the press down to put on the plate for the variant price, they also changed the plates for the Godzilla ad. Here's something you may not know... The ads that ran in comics repeated throughout the titles. Each page had an individual set of plates, and the only plates that were changed from job to job were the ones for the story pages. The only time the plates for the ad pages were changed was if they were worn, or if the ad makeup was changed/rearranged. Meaning, when the publisher went to a different ad or ad makeup for their titles. If you look at several Marvel comics from a given month (or span of several months), 99% will be the same ads, and they will be on the same pages of the books. This may explain why the Godzilla ad was printed incorrectly. The plates were worn out after printing for 3 consecutive months, and were changed when the press shut down to change the black plate for the price change. I'd be interested to know if the Godzilla ad in the 30 cent version looks bad. I have a hunch that it looks terrible in that version, as the colors would have a worn or smeared look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosmic-spider-man Posted April 1, 2005 Share Posted April 1, 2005 I'd be interested to know if the Godzilla ad in the 30 cent version looks bad. I have a hunch that it looks terrible in that version, as the colors would have a worn or smeared look. Very interesting I will check that out when I get more time. But I am sure this is not the case on the Godzilla add error because their were 3 other pages in those comics with the pink printing error and the other 3 were all story pages I just posted the add page because it was really easy to see on that page. I will post one of the story pages with the error and a comparison with the normal one this weekend and you can see what I mean. I realy appreciate your input on this as I have no clue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiceX Posted April 1, 2005 Author Share Posted April 1, 2005 Give more details and I'll see if I can figure it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sterlingcomics Posted April 1, 2005 Share Posted April 1, 2005 I would think the Dollar Comics would be very prone to bindery tears due to the fact that it's a saddle stitched book. That many pages with a staple in the middle is a nightmare to produce. Indeed, the defect is ubiquitous on them...and the ones that are "taller" than other books of the era are inevitably beat up on the top edge. My guess is that it is too noticeable for them to ignore. Thanks for the info! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
