Did Infantino save Batman?

[bronze johnny]

While the television show did wonders for Batman's popularity, Tec 327 came out a few years before Adam West put on the cowl. It's clear that Infantino was given the assignment to revamp a character with declining sales.

 

Was the introduction of the "new-look Batman" one of the most significant events in DC's Silver Age? And if so, did the "Infantino Batman" subsequently influence to a degree, the decision to make the television series? After all, would there have been a television series if the Batman comic book had been canceled? This brings me back to the original question:

 

Did Infantino save Batman and if so, has Carmine received sufficient credit for this achievement?

 

John

[shadroch]

I don't believe he saved Batman. I have never read anything that hinted Batman was in danger of being canceled in the time period you bring up, so I don't see where Batman needed saving. I also doubt comic book sales had much to do with the decision to put out a television show. Did Green Hornet even have a comic book being published when they green lit his show?

[lscomics]

I don't believe he saved Batman. I have never read anything that hinted Batman was in danger of being canceled in the time period you bring up, so I don't see where Batman needed saving. I also doubt comic book sales had much to do with the decision to put out a television show. Did Green Hornet even have a comic book being published when they green lit his show?

As much as I love the work Infantino did on Batman I don't think he saved the title. After he left the book and those two new guys (Adams & O'Neil) took over I'm sure there was an increase in sales though being as they took the character to a different level with the introduction of Ra's Al Ghul.

 

There wasn't a Green Hornet comic at the time the TV series started. The last issue of the original series came out in 1949 and then nothing else was published until the Gold Key issues with photo covers.

[telerites]

Wasn't it Infantino who had Bats using a gun in a panel or story when he took over?

 

I always like Infantino's pace and storytelling but was I didn't a lot of his art (I know I'll crucified for that). I did enjoy MIS, probably because of Murphy Anderson's inks.

 

Did Schwartz feel that he needed the "New Look" to compete with Marvel and their more adult storylines?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rjpb]

It's common lore that Batman's sales were lagging in the early 60s and the title was in danger of being cancelled, but I've never seen this reliably confirmed, and sales figures for 1962, listed at comichron.com show that Batman was the 10th most popular book ( of those reporting sales figures) at an avg. of 410,000 copies circulated, and Detective at #16 with 265,000 circulated. Apparently DC didn't list circulation figures in most of it's titles from 1963-64. Both numbers are down about 20% from just two years earlier, so perhaps there was concern over increasing drop-off by 1963.

 

In the years prior to the the "new look" it does feel like DC didn't know what to do with Batman, what with ramping up the supporting cast, adding monster and sci-fi elements, as well as various mutations and bizarre suits for Batman. By 1963 there may also have been a feeling that Shelly Moldoff's style was looking pretty dated compared to the modern look of other DC books by Infantino, Anderson, Kubert, etc.

 

Batman's circulation jumps from an average of 453,000 in 1965 to 898,000 in 1966, so it's clear that while the "new look" may have improved the titles' circulation, the success of the TV show doubled sales, but once it had run it's course, sales dropped off precipitously.

 

An interesting side note, in 1962, ACG's fantasy titles were outselling the Marvel fantasy titles.

[shadroch]

I may be mistaken, but as I recall it- DCs horror/ suspense line outsold most of their super-hero lines throughout much of the Bronze Age.

I have read that Detetive Comics was in danger of cancelation at a point in the 1970s, but have not heard that of Batman itself.

[bronze johnny]

One of the reasons for my starting this thread had to do with defining whether Tec 327 was a "re-launch" of Batman. It was a re-launch if we look at what Infantino himself has said about this. According to Infantino in his book, "Amazing World of Infantino," Schwartz told Carmine that he had 6 months to save Batman from cancellation. Is Infantino inaccurate in his indication that the Batman comic book was headed to cancellation?

 

Interesting you brought up the Green Hornet- not having an existing comic book series for a long time was perhaps one of the reasons why this show was a dismal failure in terms of television ratings.

 

Respectfully,

 

John

[jimjum12]

.....Infantino sure didn't hurt it any.....GOD BLESS....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[Prince Namor]

One of the reasons for my starting this thread had to do with defining whether Tec 327 was a "re-launch" of Batman. It was a re-launch if we look at what Infantino himself has said about this. According to Infantino in his book, "Amazing World of Infantino," Schwartz told Carmine that he had 6 months to save Batman from cancellation. Is Infantino inaccurate in his indication that the Batman comic book was headed to cancellation?

 

Interesting you brought up the Green Hornet- not having an existing comic book series for a long time was perhaps one of the reasons why this show was a dismal failure in terms of television ratings.

 

Respectfully,

 

John

 

Infantino talks about this in numerous sources.

I don't know if they were actually talking about canceling those books (he says that's what he was told) but there seems to have been some scare as to what was going on at Marvel.

Both Roy Thomas and John Romita who were at DC before going to Marvel have stated in interviews that DC would have copies of Marvel's covers hanging up in meetings and discussing how 'ugly' they were and how they couldn't figure out how they were selling so well.

 

It coincides with what Infantino did in changing those Batman covers and then later on as art director, setting Nick Cardy loose to really do some spectacular work on Aquaman and Teen Titans covers. Add to that Neal Adams (pretty much the polar opposite of Curt Swan) doing covers and DC made a pretty radical change (in cover art) from the early sixties to the late sixties.

DC was slow to change, but they did change.

 

Two things to keep in mind when talking about publications numbers:

We can see what was published, but we can't see what was returned. Newsstand distribution would return unsold copies, and this was what publisher's used to determine if a book was worth continuing to publish. We don't know what kind of return numbers Batman had on those 410,000 copies in 1962 (or even what was being published in 1963-64), but we do know they made a change in cover art at some point and DC was normally very stubborn about change.

 

Secondly, there's been some debate about DC not knowing what Marvel was doing or how well they were selling, but during this period, DC was distributing Marvel comics. (Goodman had to take that deal in 1957 after his distributor left the market. DC did it on the condition that Marvel only publish 8 titles a month).

So in some form, they probably had access to their publication numbers as well as their return numbers.

 

 

[rjpb]

We don't know what kind of return numbers Batman had on those 410,000 copies in 1962 (or even what was being published in 1963-64), but we do know they made a change in cover art at some point and DC was normally very stubborn about change.

 

 

 

Distribution is usually counted as the number of copies sold ( plus a small amount given away). Total copies printed would include disributed and returned copies.

 

This linked page doesn't show printed numbers prior to 1965, but if you add the distributed and returned numbers for 1965, you get the total print run.

[Prince Namor]

We don't know what kind of return numbers Batman had on those 410,000 copies in 1962 (or even what was being published in 1963-64), but we do know they made a change in cover art at some point and DC was normally very stubborn about change.

 

 

 

Distribution is usually counted as the number of copies sold ( plus a small amount given away). Total copies printed would include disributed and returned copies.

 

This linked page doesn't show printed numbers prior to 1965, but if you add the distributed and returned numbers for 1965, you get the total print run.

 

Yes, I was trying somewhat simplify it because of so much unavailable data across the board, but you are correct.

 

What we do know, is that in 1962 Superman was outselling Batman as far as Paid Circulation by nearly 45%. That's a big gap between your two biggest characters. We can't see the return numbers, of course, but we can speculate.

If the number of copies returned in 1963 got to be as high as 50%, it wouldn't matter what the print run was, it would be seen as 'there's a problem'.

Especially if they're looking at Marvel books and seeing a smaller % of returns for the FF and ASM.

This would explain where Carmine's story comes from.

 

Batman's 1960-1962 numbers show a decrease in Paid Circulation, from 502,000 to 485,000 down to 410,000. This doesn't tell us what was actually PRINTED, and RETURNED. We can only speculate that it probably wasn't meeting DC expectations. In 1965 it jumps up to 450,000 and then the TV show starts in January of 1966 and the book skyrockets.

 

Did Carmine's covers help the book from midway through 1964 to the TV show starting up in Jan. 1966? Based on what little info we have, it appears it did.

Don't know if it saying it 'saved' it is fair, but unless someone else can verify that DC was actually contemplating ending it before that, we'll never know.

 

[adamstrange]

Until 1970 or so, DC was an editor driven shop. Julie Schwartz was given the responsibility to revive Batman as it was in serious decline.

 

He decided on the new look (the yellow circle added to Batman's uniform) and called on his favorite team of Infantino and Anderson to revamp the art. He was inhibited for a while as Bob Kane had a contract to supply half of the art, much of ghosted by Moldoff. Moldoff was good but was restricted to mimicking Kane.

 

The TV Show definitely drove up sales considerably over the gains recorded under Schwartz, but created a problem as the direction from Schwartz was for more clever, mystery plot-driven stories than the campy comedy of the TV show that ultimately ran out of favor.

[bronze johnny]

If you take Infantino at his word, Kane was slowly killing the book and Carmine had to resurrect an "almost deceased" character. Since there's nothing that I've been able to find contrary to Infantino's account, I wonder how seriously Carmine's description of this situation should be taken?

 

John

[AtlasFan]

Schwartz's choice to bring in Infantino & Anderson and give Bats a "New Look" is not only what saved Batman as a comic book, but also inspired the TV producers to pitch Batman to ABC as a TV series.

 

As I recall, the pilot episode for BATMAN was based on the issue were the Silver Age Riddler 1st appeared - an early "new look" issue.

[Prince Namor]

Schwartz's choice to bring in Infantino & Anderson and give Bats a "New Look" is not only what saved Batman as a comic book, but also inspired the TV producers to pitch Batman to ABC as a TV series.

 

As I recall, the pilot episode for BATMAN was based on the issue were the Silver Age Riddler 1st appeared - an early "new look" issue.

 

Even without sources to prove that as factual I would believe it, just by looking at those covers by Infantino, especially on Batman. You can see where they got the look of the show.

 

[bronze johnny]

So was saving Batman a major Silver Age event?

[adamstrange]

Schwartz's choice to bring in Infantino & Anderson and give Bats a "New Look" is not only what saved Batman as a comic book, but also inspired the TV producers to pitch Batman to ABC as a TV series.

 

As I recall, the pilot episode for BATMAN was based on the issue were the Silver Age Riddler 1st appeared - an early "new look" issue.

Wikipedia provides a brief overview of the events leading up to the show and I don't think we can credit the comic for the show.

 

Tec 171 was an obvious influence on Semple, the writer of the first show, and the comics influenced the design, but they were trying to make the show even prior to the reboot of the comic.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_TV_Show

[Hepcat]

Did Infantino save Batman and if so, has Carmine received sufficient credit for this achievement?

 

No he did not. Carmine wasn't the right artist for Batman. I wish he had stayed on Adam Strange instead.

 

 

 

[Zonker]

I'm having a hard time crediting Infantino with "saving" Batman. He may have done most of the cover artwork for both Batman and Detective, but he did none of the interior art on the main Batman title and only half of the issues of Detective. I know these days cover art is everything, but back in the age of the spinner rack, we'd be drawn in by the cover, but would usually thumb through the issue before making our purchase. So picking up a random Batman or Detective comic during the New Look years, you'd have only a 25% chance of finding Infantino work inside. If someone gets the credit for helping Batman survive until the TV show took off, I'd be more likely to name editor Schwartz, writers Fox & Broome, or even inker Joe Giella, who not only inked Infantino but also Sheldon Moldoff's New Look period pencils (ghosting for Bob Kane of course).

[Prince Namor]

I'm having a hard time crediting Infantino with "saving" Batman. He may have done most of the cover artwork for both Batman and Detective, but he did none of the interior art on the main Batman title and only half of the issues of Detective. I know these days cover art is everything, but back in the age of the spinner rack, we'd be drawn in by the cover, but would usually thumb through the issue before making our purchase. So picking up a random Batman or Detective comic during the New Look years, you'd have only a 25% chance of finding Infantino work inside. If someone gets the credit for helping Batman survive until the TV show took off, I'd be more likely to name editor Schwartz, writers Fox & Broome, or even inker Joe Giella, who not only inked Infantino but also Sheldon Moldoff's New Look period pencils (ghosting for Bob Kane of course).

 

Those Bat-mite stories and GA look of the covers for Batman books was leading to a decline in the number of copies published, which can only lead me to believe a rise in the number of copies returned.

DC, or rather some of the editors there, believed that the success that Marvel was having was due to the 'ugly' covers (or what could be seen as more grim and gritty), and so it's possible they saw Batman as a title to try and update to improve its numbers.

It did.

As to if it 'saved' the book, I find doubtful as well. If the TV series was already something brewing they were just looking for a way to update the book and keep it successful.

Concerning the content, DC wouldn't realize how far behind Marvel they were for another couple of years. I don't think they gave the readership that much credit for comprehension or understanding of difference in artists.