Bigger BA Key: ASM 121 or Batman 232?

[mrlatko]

At the very high end of CGC graded copies, ASM #121 beats Bats #232 for prices realized according to GPA, but not by much. Census numbers are similar too on the high end.

 

ASM #121 has 32 copies in 9.8 that average $2500

Bats #232 has 35 9.8 copies (very close in numbers) that average $2000

 

9.6 prices are even closer, but ASM wins by a bit.

ASM #121 has 117 copies in 9.6 that average $1100

Bats #232 has only 71 copies in 9.6 that average $1000

 

My averages above are current market value estimates based on GPA.

 

Prices have also significantly dropped as the census numbers have increased. ASM #121 was selling for $5000+ typically from 2002-2008. Bats #232 in 9.8 was selling for nearer to $3000+ during its heyday.

 

The gap has definitely shrunk, but Spidey still wins the battle of dollars and cents according to the buying community.

 

[bronze johnny]

Thanks for the data (thumbs u . ASM 121 is the choice for most boardies right now.

[joe_collector]

How is this even a question? Only the biggest DC fanboy on Earth could vote Batman 232 over ASM 121.

[joe_collector]

Hi, jjonahjameson1, and thanks for the insight. The main question presented is which is the bigger BA key? In determining this question, I included the two primary "properties" that are generally assessed in defining a key book and its degree of overall significance: historical and market value

 

Gee, I must have missed that update when it comes to "key" issues.

 

Let me guess, you think that Western 35-centers are the "key" issues of the Bronze Age, right?

[Huskie-migration]

I'd have to go with ASM 121. Easily the most significant moment in Spider-Man history after the Death of Uncle Ben.

 

Ras is great but doesn't pass up the Death of Gwen

[jjonahjameson1]

Hi, jjonahjameson1, and thanks for the insight. The main question presented is which is the bigger BA key? In determining this question, I included the two primary "properties" that are generally assessed in defining a key book and its degree of overall significance: historical and market value. I specifically connected these properties with a conjunction since they are both required in any successful attempt to determine which is the overall important key book. I'm not exclusively asking whether one is more historically significant or more valuable than the other. This disjunctive connection takes us in a different direction leading to the example you provide and begs the question- which is the bigger key? ASM 121 or Bats 232?

Moreover, I'm not sure it's that easy to conclude that ASM 121 is historically more significant than Bats 232. The history of each of these books and the interpretations of posterity have evolved. Whether "death" books have impacted ASM 121's significance or the question of Ras'' evolutionary rise in stature as perhaps the greatest and darkest villian of the BA during the decades that followed his inception are historical questions that should be analyzed. Should a book only be defined at the time of its inception and what reaction it receives at that time? Wouldn't be fair to either of these two great BA books if we simply took them in their BA context and left it at that. Both books continue to demonstrate their greatness generally because of the historical impact they've had on the posterity of comic book readers and collectors. Their respective publishers have subsequently even gone to great lengths to capitalize on these books (perhaps to a gratuitous extreme in some cases?).

Respectfully,

John

 

Hi, John:

 

Well, if we went based on darkest villain int he BA & decades thereafter, I would vote Thanos or Darkseid far ahead of Ra's.

 

Regarding value, that's a whole other matter and I'm not sure how that really plays into a book being defined as a 'Key'.

[bronze johnny]

Great point about Darkseid, Thanos, and value. The correlation between the keys and the OSPG values and the GPA analysis provided by Mrlatko (thanks again Latko) are two examples that can be included in this "methodology," but I see your point since this approach is not entirely conclusive. Thanos is definitely the hottest BA villian right now but Supe's Pal 134 and IM 55 have generally been behind Bats 232 (up until now at least). Moreover, they weren't in the runs of the arguably the 2 most popular BA characters that provide some of the best examples of the realism that their respective publishers in that great age gave us.

Thanks,

John

[joe_collector]

Guys, please don't be lame and use valuation as a barometer of "Key-ness" as it has almost nothing to do with it.

 

Scarcity, CGC Census numbers, cover attractiveness/artist, etc. all enter into valuation, and there are many examples of significant key issues that are routinely outpaced by far less significant books in terms of pure resale value.

 

Even Stan Lee admits that GS X-Men 1 is the most important comic book since the early-SA, but it's not even the most valuable BA book by a long shot.

 

A key issue is key because it's important, from a new character introduction to a new artist to a cultural shift and everything in-between. Value has nothing to do with that, and while most keys do sell for higher than commons, it's really stupid to compare an issue's importance just based on how much they sell for.

[Point Five]

ASM 121 fo-shizzle. A turning point indeed. Ra's is a great villain, but no massive impact on the larger world of comics with his introduction.

 

 

[bronze johnny]

Hi joe_collector:

No one's being lame- value can be the sum of the attributes you mention (scarcity, importance of character, etc.). And you really think Giant Size X-men 1 is not a major valuable key? Places in the top 10 key BA books in the OSPG- but perhaps I'm being lame since I've proudly used the Guide as a reference. And perhaps there's no existing correlation between a books value and its overall significance as you say? Who's advocating a book's degree of key-ness exclusively on value? Your criticism concerning our use of value as a demonstrative factor is presumptuous- do you really think that anyone here would exclude attributes like a book's scarcity, character's importance, cover, artist, writer, etc. prior to determining whether or to what degree a key book is? You really think reference "tools" like GPA and the Guide have no value in providing some measure of seeing where a book like X-Men 94 can quickly be distinguished from other books at the same grade like X-Men 93 and 95, 96, 97, etc. That the two books in question are keys is not an issue, it's a given. We know why they are keys. The question as to whether one is a bigger key than the other can depend on their historical value and a statistically based comparative analysis of the GPA data provided by Mrlatko, which happens to provide a more accurate view of a book's value.

Respectfully,

John

[joe_collector]

Jesus Christ buddy, take a breath, reread my comments and try to write in coherent sentences.

 

I've bolded the important parts you must have skimmed past:

 

Scarcity, CGC Census numbers, cover attractiveness/artist, etc. all enter into valuation, and there are many examples of significant key issues that are routinely outpaced by far less significant books in terms of pure resale value.

 

Even Stan Lee admits that GS X-Men 1 is the most important comic book since the early-SA, but it's not even the most valuable BA book by a long shot.

 

Get it? Of course keys are worth more that commons (duh!) but comparing one key issue that sells for 2K in 9.8 against another that sells for $1.5K in 9.8 means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in terms of their "Key-ness". ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, 100% guaranteed. Actually, less than nothing.

 

After all, we could be talking about something like Star Wars 35-cent Variant vs. GS X-Men #1. Guess which sells for (much, much) more in 9.6? Now guess which is more of a key issue in the overall Marvel Comic scheme?

 

If you can grasp that incredibly simple concept, all will become clear and should illustrate why comparing valuations should be kept out of any 'which is the most key issue" conversation.

[MK Ultra]

Joe's such a charmer.

[joe_collector]

The question as to whether one is a bigger key than the other can depend on their historical value and a statistically based comparative analysis of the GPA data provided by Mrlatko, which happens to provide a more accurate view of a book's value.

 

Wrong, and I can prove it.

 

Do this amazing "statistically based comparative analysis of the GPA data" using Star Wars #1 35-cent variant vs. Giant Size X-Men 1, Hulk 181, X-Men 94, etc. and post the results.

[joe_collector]

Joe's such a charmer.

 

Sorry, but people who actually believe that "higher resale value = higher key issue" are quite humorous to say the least. I think this CGC must have created this subsection of specu-collector as I don't remember too many of them pre-CGC.

[bronze johnny]

Argumentative are we? And an expert in many areas including the art of writing? Try reading what I wrote and digest it carefully. You are a "charmer."

Respectfully,

John

[TSwift25]

I'd choose Batman 232 and the reason for that being that in comics, a death never feels permanent (obviously I realize how notable an exception to this several of Spider-Man's deaths are, Gwen in particular), a first appearance is forever.

 

Ra's introduced a line of characters that have had a long term impact on the Bat mythos.

 

Gwen's death is a better written issue, but in terms of what it sprouted afterwards, Ra's impact is undeniable. Spidey was a tough luck, vulnerable guy before Gwen died, and he remained that way.

[mrlatko]

The question as to whether one is a bigger key than the other can depend on their historical value and a statistically based comparative analysis of the GPA data provided by Mrlatko, which happens to provide a more accurate view of a book's value.

 

Wrong, and I can prove it.

 

Do this amazing "statistically based comparative analysis of the GPA data" using Star Wars #1 35-cent variant vs. Giant Size X-Men 1, Hulk 181, X-Men 94, etc. and post the results.

 

I have always wanted to get into it with Joe but have refrained. Today's the day! Relax Marvel-Boy-Knows-It-All. Got a better example to back up your theory that price doesn't determine "keyness" besides a book with 2 copies graded at 9.6, comparing to those others you listed that have 100-200 each at that grade? Of course the Star Wars is going to sell for much more. Simple supply and demand. We were comparing the more similar census numbers between Bats #232 and ASM #121 in 9.6 and 9.8 copies. If the market says that one key from the same era consistently sells for more than another key of the same era with similar census numbers, then you are saying this is not a valid indicator as to the more expensive book being more "key" than the less expensive? Is this the only factor? Certainly not, but it does contribute to the "keyness" of a book. If the market is not determining this, then who is? You?

 

And if anyone is wondering, ask Joe about any Marvel key and he will absolutely let you know that it is far better and more significant than Green Lantern #76. He can prove that one too.

[joe_collector]

Got a better example to back up your theory that price doesn't determine "keyness"

 

You're actually serious? You really think that resale price determines 'key-ness"?

 

Reality backs up my statement. For example, if someone found a mass warehouse full of NM+ Hulk 181's and released them CGC'd on the market, prices would certainly fall, but that price drop would not in any way lower its key issue factor in terms of the comic and Wolverine's influence on comics and pop culture in general.

 

What you drug-added specu-lectors are mistaking as a "key issues" indicator is actually referred to as the market desirability of the comic, which is a totally different thing. Market desirability not does automatically correlate to key issue status, and I doubt you would find anyone with a few brains cells to rub together than would agree that the higher the resale value, the higher the issue's key status.

 

There are many examples (like Neal Adams covers of inconsequential books), but Amazing Adventures 11 is a great one. It is virtually inconsequential as far as BA keys go, but it is valuable in high-grade because of many factors like the black cover/HTF in high-grade, it being a picture frame (which is a CGC set), X-men completists, movie hype/fans, etc.

 

If you just looked at the price of a CGC 9.8 copy using your bizarre hypothesis, you would mistakenly think that AA 11 was a hyper-key of the Bronze Age, when in reality, it was only recently (late-90's/early-2000's) broken out, it is not a highly-regarded comic book key, and many other factors account for its high resale prices.

 

Or look at Batman 227 - I have that book in low-grade and I have read it and the story sucks and has none of the darkness of the cover (new direction? ), the interior art is bad and the book has zero historical or comic-history value. But ooooh, look at that cool Neal Adams homage cover!

 

Do you think this is a major "key issue" of the Bronze Age? It's CGC prices would have your theory saying yes, but everyone knows it's all about that (admittedly) killer throwback/homage Neal Adams cover, which is even more important to resale values with CGC.

[joe_collector]

And if anyone is wondering, ask Joe about any Marvel key and he will absolutely let you know that it is far better and more significant than Green Lantern #76. He can prove that one too.

 

Obviously there are a lot of books more significant than GL/GA 76, such as GS X-Men #1, which pretty well any comic expert or historian marks as the most influential and important book of the Bronze Age.

 

Are you really disputing this?

[MK Ultra]

As everyone is voicing opinions, I know none of them are wrong. There may be differences of opinion, but they are just that. That's why I voted for, and believe that Bats 232 is bigger that ASM 121.

 

GSX 1 is the first appearance of Storm, Nightcrawler, Colossus, and Thunderbird. They killed TBird in 95, so he doesn't count. Storm Nightcrawler and Colossus have no where near the impact that Ras Al Ghul has. So I'd vote for Bats 232 over GSX 1 too.