Bigger SA Key: Silver Surfer 1 or Iron Man 1?

[jjonahjameson1]

Well, Orange... Nearly 100 people have voted in the poll on page one, indicating one of the two books are the bigger key. I guess we're all wrong

 

Sheep. Bah bah.

 

Ridiculous.

 

The proof is in the value and sales figures. The demand for these books continue to rise. Are you calling the whole comic market sheep? Or perhaps you are the in the minority in your views?

 

Iron Man 1 in 9.2 is2013

(4) $1,599Hi $1,060Lo

May-06-2013 $1,599 Cert# 0210104002

Mar-22-2013 $1,595 Cert# 0130280002

Jan-21-2013 $1,060 Cert# 1110694001

Jan-08-2013 $1,485 Cert# 1055082004

 

Now compare that to Iron Man 2 -

 

 

2013

(5) $330Hi $110Lo

May-17-2013 $330 Cert# 0111073005

May-03-2013 $110 Cert# 1076825006

May-02-2013 $325 Cert# 1041626014

Feb-26-2013 $281 Cert# 1022508017

Feb-18-2013 $180 Cert# 0111073005

 

 

This proves that within the Iron man run of comics....#1 is considered a key and values indicate it. The rest of the prices fall on all other IM numbers until you get to #55....which is also a key. First Thanos!

 

Now, for Silver Surfer #1

 

2013

(3) $1,535Hi $1,376Lo

Feb-17-2013 $1,500 Cert# 0754808001

Feb-04-2013 $1,535 Cert# 0204037010

Jan-08-2013 $1,376 Cert# 0754808001

 

About the same price as Iron Man #1. Both books in 9.2 are about $1400-$1500.

 

Iron Man 1 is a key book regardless of it's lack of introducing a key character. It's the first Iron Man on it's own title. Same with SS 1.

 

Two iconic characters in the Marvel universe. Both books continue to rise in price. But I guess everyone is just bunch of sheep

 

Great, thanks for the rolling sales figures. Can you please provide likewise for ToS 39 in similar grade and compare to IM #1 sales noted above?

 

I'm not comparing TOS 39 to IM 1. Of course TOS 39 is the bigger key of early Marvel.

 

IM 1 is the key of expansion Marvel of the late 60s. Still a key. Just not as significant.

 

See, you still have to qualify it. "It's a key, but not really" is basically what you said. According to your words, IM # 1 couldn't be more than a semi-key. This statement helps my argument more than it does yours.

 

It's the first Iron Man on it's own title.

 

Who cares? At a minimum it's his 63rd appearance. The story in # 1 is continued from the IM/SM one-shot. This is the sheep part I'm talking about.

 

This proves that within the Iron man run of comics....#1 is considered a key and values indicate it.

 

No, it just proves that, like I said, people are stupid. Value is not necessarily indicator of key status.

 

And I think y'all are missing a point about Iron Man getting a #1 issue. It was totally arbitrary that Iron Man got a # 1 issue because of the distribution deal with DC. If Marvel had gotten out from under DC a year earlier, TOS would've ended at like issue # 90 and IM would've received a # 1. If Marvel had gotten out from under DC a year later than they did, TOS would've run until issue # 110 and then IM would've received a # 1. You guys are so programmed to think a # 1 is automatically a key you fail to see the obvious

 

I am in agreement with you 100%.

[ItsJustRyan]

@Orange and @JJJ

 

I think you have good arguments, but you both are missing the point.

 

Why is it so difficult to conceed that IM#1 and SS#1 (whether you like them or not, whether you consider them key or not) are more sought after than average books of the time... making them key issues. I don't have to qualify it, but I have already acknowledged that one way of looking at 'keys' is as a tiered system, or (1) elite keys, (2) mega keys, (3) minor keys, etc. At the least these could be consider minor keys...

 

Are they not more sought after? Yes.

Are they not important issues for the character/title? Yes.

 

Once again, from CGC:

 

Key Issue: An important issue in a comic book title's run. http://www.cgccomics.com/resources/glossary.asp#k

 

Anyone else wanna chime in

[oakman29]

@Orange and @JJJ

 

I think you have good arguments, but you both are missing the point.

 

Why is it so difficult to conceed that IM#1 and SS#1 (whether you like them or not, whether you consider them key or not) are more sought after than average books of the time... making them key issues. I don't have to qualify it, but I have already acknowledged that one way of looking at 'keys' is as a tiered system, or (1) elite keys, (2) mega keys, (3) minor keys, etc. At the least these could be consider minor keys...

 

Are they not more sought after? Yes.

Are they not important issues for the character/title? Yes.

 

Once again, from CGC:

 

Key Issue: An important issue in a comic book title's run. http://www.cgccomics.com/resources/glossary.asp#k

 

 

Anyone else wanna chime in

 

All I have to say is I had to have them,and all I do is collect keys.Just sayin'.

 

[Orange-migration]

Once again, from CGC:

 

Key Issue: An important issue in a comic book title's run. http://www.cgccomics.com/resources/glossary.asp#k

 

Once again, CGC would tell you ANY book is a key if it would convince you to submit it. CGC's definition is laughable, and if you take their definition seriously, you shouldn't be discussing what's actually a key in the first place.

[BarryAllen]

Once again, from CGC:

 

Key Issue: An important issue in a comic book title's run. http://www.cgccomics.com/resources/glossary.asp#k

 

Once again, CGC would tell you ANY book is a key if it would convince you to submit it. CGC's definition is laughable, and if you take their definition seriously, you shouldn't be discussing what's actually a key in the first place.

 

You do know that they sponsor this forum right?

[Mark 1]

Once again, from CGC:

 

Key Issue: An important issue in a comic book title's run. http://www.cgccomics.com/resources/glossary.asp#k

 

Once again, CGC would tell you ANY book is a key if it would convince you to submit it. CGC's definition is laughable, and if you take their definition seriously, you shouldn't be discussing what's actually a key in the first place.

 

Iron Man 1 was a key way before CGC came around. OSPG has listed Iron man 1 as a key as well.

[zosocane]

A little historical perspective:

 

When I was a kid collector (late-70s through mid-80s), I never considered IM#1 a "key" book. Nor did I consider its contemporaneously-published counterpart, Cap #100, a "key" book (even though I had one). In the case of Iron Man, IM#1 is his 61st appearance (more if you add Avengers, annuals, x-overs, etc.). Moreover, both books (IM#1 and Cap#100) were -- back then -- plentiful and relatively easy to find at cons and comic shops. TOS#39 and Avengers #4 (even ST#114) were the considerably "tougher" books and pricey during that era.

 

But the market of today is what matters, and the market has taken the view that IM#1 is, at the very least, a semi-key, if not a key.

[ItsJustRyan]

Once again, from CGC:

 

Key Issue: An important issue in a comic book title's run. http://www.cgccomics.com/resources/glossary.asp#k

 

Once again, CGC would tell you ANY book is a key if it would convince you to submit it. CGC's definition is laughable, and if you take their definition seriously, you shouldn't be discussing what's actually a key in the first place.

 

CGC is not saying IM#1 is key....

 

The definition generalizes "important issue" as a guideline. I think IM#1 is an important issue. The market does as well and I would go so far as to say that most collectors do as well.

 

[Dr. Balls]

Keys are definitely relative to how people want to define them.

 

My collection centers around attaining 500 SA/BA/CA Marvel issues that I call The 500 Keys. All pretty much fitting within the description ItsJustRyan quoted from CGC.

 

I consider IM #1 an important issue because it's the first issue of an ongoing series. Surfer is equally important as it is also the first issue on a series that was meant to be ongoing, but lost it's momentum - and (I believe) it had the Silver Surfer's origin in the first issue, which would also be significant to 'key' status.

 

As far as "appearances", Iron Man had 60+ appearances before he got his own book, Surfer had - what? 6 or 7? So that might play a factor in someone's determination of which one is more important than the other.

 

I like 'em both.

[Mr_Peabody-migration]

I will gladly post links to articles I wrote...

 

Would love to see those links, thanks!

[Mr_Peabody-migration]

I consider IM #1 an important issue because it's the first issue of an ongoing series.

 

The way this reads to me, you must consider any # 1 as a key, is that correct? If not, what makes this #1 any different than any other # 1?

 

Remember, IM was not awarded his own title because he burst onto the scene and had fans clamoring for him. He received it because the business deal between DC and Marvel came to an end. That's it. That's the only reason. I suppose you guys think Sub-Mariner # 1 is a key too?

 

it had the Silver Surfer's origin in the first issue, which would also be significant to 'key' status.

 

Overstreet states "more detailed origin"

 

As far as "appearances", Iron Man had 60+ appearances before he got his own book, Surfer had - what? 6 or 7? So that might play a factor in someone's determination of which one is more important than the other.

 

Plus SS had a 25 cent cover price.

 

IMO, SS # 1 is a more important book than IM # 1. Nothing against the books or the people that collect them (not speculate/flip them, collect them), they're just not keys. No book is a key just because it's a #1; if you're objective the number on the cover is irrelevant.

[ItsJustRyan]

I consider IM #1 an important issue because it's the first issue of an ongoing series.

 

The way this reads to me, you must consider any # 1 as a key, is that correct? If not, what makes this #1 any different than any other # 1?

 

Remember, IM was not awarded his own title because he burst onto the scene and had fans clamoring for him. He received it because the business deal between DC and Marvel came to an end. That's it. That's the only reason. I suppose you guys think Sub-Mariner # 1 is a key too?

 

it had the Silver Surfer's origin in the first issue, which would also be significant to 'key' status.

 

Overstreet states "more detailed origin"

 

As far as "appearances", Iron Man had 60+ appearances before he got his own book, Surfer had - what? 6 or 7? So that might play a factor in someone's determination of which one is more important than the other.

 

Plus SS had a 25 cent cover price.

 

IMO, SS # 1 is a more important book than IM # 1. Nothing against the books or the people that collect them (not speculate/flip them, collect them), they're just not keys. No book is a key just because it's a #1; if you're objective the number on the cover is irrelevant.

 

I guess ASM #1 is not a key either and could just as well be ASM #Q

[Foxtrot70]

When I was a budding comic collector (early 80s) I made my first big purchase which was IM#1 in Mint. This comic was a "key" in my circle of friends and the LCS. Think I paid around $50 (months pay from my paper route). I was a big IM fan although had no idea of the existence of TOS series. Not long after, I bought a comic guide and eventually realized TOS39 was the "big" fish. This realization diminished my appreciation for the book and I later traded my IM#1 for a Conan #1 in Mint. I was also a fan of FF and from this same comic shop I later bought an FF48 for around $10. Silver Surfer who? oh he is kinda cool. SS #1 was not on anyones radar from what I remember, but like Wolverine, he had instant fans upon discovery. Seems it was later 80s before the Surfer popularity gained significance. My experience could have been regional, but the story then had IM on top, although now days I think SS#1 is certainly equal. Neither book is a "1st" appearance. I would call them minor keys, but keys nevertheless.

[jjonahjameson1]

I consider IM #1 an important issue because it's the first issue of an ongoing series.

 

The way this reads to me, you must consider any # 1 as a key, is that correct? If not, what makes this #1 any different than any other # 1?

 

Remember, IM was not awarded his own title because he burst onto the scene and had fans clamoring for him. He received it because the business deal between DC and Marvel came to an end. That's it. That's the only reason. I suppose you guys think Sub-Mariner # 1 is a key too?

 

it had the Silver Surfer's origin in the first issue, which would also be significant to 'key' status.

 

Overstreet states "more detailed origin"

 

As far as "appearances", Iron Man had 60+ appearances before he got his own book, Surfer had - what? 6 or 7? So that might play a factor in someone's determination of which one is more important than the other.

 

Plus SS had a 25 cent cover price.

 

IMO, SS # 1 is a more important book than IM # 1. Nothing against the books or the people that collect them (not speculate/flip them, collect them), they're just not keys. No book is a key just because it's a #1; if you're objective the number on the cover is irrelevant.

 

I guess ASM #1 is not a key either and could just as well be ASM #Q

 

There are 1st appearances in ASM #1, and it is also the 1st FF x-over and ties with FF12 as the 1st Marvel x-over. Certainly more significant than anything in IM #1 or SS#1.

[Mr_Peabody-migration]

I consider IM #1 an important issue because it's the first issue of an ongoing series.

 

The way this reads to me, you must consider any # 1 as a key, is that correct? If not, what makes this #1 any different than any other # 1?

 

Remember, IM was not awarded his own title because he burst onto the scene and had fans clamoring for him. He received it because the business deal between DC and Marvel came to an end. That's it. That's the only reason. I suppose you guys think Sub-Mariner # 1 is a key too?

 

it had the Silver Surfer's origin in the first issue, which would also be significant to 'key' status.

 

Overstreet states "more detailed origin"

 

As far as "appearances", Iron Man had 60+ appearances before he got his own book, Surfer had - what? 6 or 7? So that might play a factor in someone's determination of which one is more important than the other.

 

Plus SS had a 25 cent cover price.

 

IMO, SS # 1 is a more important book than IM # 1. Nothing against the books or the people that collect them (not speculate/flip them, collect them), they're just not keys. No book is a key just because it's a #1; if you're objective the number on the cover is irrelevant.

 

I guess ASM #1 is not a key either and could just as well be ASM #Q

 

There are 1st appearances in ASM #1, and it is also the 1st FF x-over and ties with FF12 as the 1st Marvel x-over. Certainly more significant than anything in IM #1 or SS#1.

 

Exactly. ASM # 1 is not a key because it's (just) a #1, like IM # 1. It has a lot more going for it, like the things you mentioned, and the 1st appearance of JJJ. So yeah, it could just as well be ASM # Q, but it would still be a key.

[Mr_Peabody-migration]

Actually I think that is a good idea, Itsjustryan. To help determine if a book is a key, we should take away the numbering. Make every issue ASM # Q. Then, without the #1, ask yourself, "what does this book have going for it to make it a key?". If the only answer you can think of is "it's a #1", then it's not a key!

[1001-migration]

Interesting thread...

[BarryAllen]

If the only answer you can think of is "it's a #1", then it's not a key!

 

Why can't a #1 issue be a key (major, minor or otherwise)?

 

I understand that not all #1s should be key due to the restarting of a series multiple times, but the first #1 solo title for a character qualifies as a key book (even if a minor one or for just collectors of that character).

 

For instance, SS1 could be considered a key (SA minor key) because it is the actual first issue of a solo title for Silver Surfer. Not the 80s redux, but the actual FIRST solo title issue.

 

Then, without the #1, ask yourself, "what does this book have going for it to make it a key?"

 

While I agree in principle, this is likely to get as many diverse answers of opinions on what qualifies as "going for it" as anything else. Because the view is so subjective this thread is likely to go on forever.

[BarryAllen]

The FIRST of anything is generally considered meaningful in some shape or form. We can argue all day long the size of the group that it is meaningful to, but that doesn't necessarily preclude it from a given list.

 

This can be applied to both comics books and just about anything else in the world. "First" is widely accepted as desirable.

[Hepcat]

To be honest, I have not read IM #1, but did purchase a slabbed copy recently

 

Wise. That way you don't have to read it and I understand there's enough rubbish in your pile already.