The Man of Steel is the new benchmark,as DC`s future is bright!

[chrisware]

Name me one good comic book written by Mark Waid?

 

Are you serious? I'll start with "Kingdom Come"...

 

And if you want current, I hear alot of good things about the latest Daredevil reboot he's writing. I would've bought it if the art didn't suck so bad.

Alex Ross

Great storyteller that Waid had the pleasure to work with.

 

All that says to me is that you've never read Kingdom Come

 

I read it.

 

Thought it sucked.

 

And Waid's review was self-serving and whiny.

[chrisware]

to the OP:

I find it very interesting that your post mentions video games and compares the Man of Steel film to that genre. I agree with that. I felt I watched someone else play a Superman fight game rather than an awesome movie.

 

That's what I figured. What I can't figure out is how some of my non board comic book buddies can talk about the movie, say they're "huge" fans of Superman and then say with a straight face how they "finally got Superman right".

 

Am I missing something in the translation?

 

Comic collectors are the old guard and gamers are the future, I guess.

 

Maybe. I read Mark Waid's reveiw of the movie and he called it "joyless". ::sigh::

Name me one good comic book written by Mark Waid?

 

 

You lost me at this point.

 

Waid is - and has been for 15 years - one of the better writers in the comic book medium.

 

Maybe. But isn't that like saying some kid in A ball is a hell of a baseball player?

[Speedy-D]

What does how well he writes comics have to do with what he thought of the movie?

[chrisware]

What does how well he writes comics have to do with what he thought of the movie?

 

Well, probably not all that much.

 

But several posters were arguing that his opinion regarding the movie is more valid because he writes comics.

 

Certainly, one does not necessarily need to have writing talent to judge movies.

 

But I would tend to trust the opinion of someone who had already demonstrated their own abilities.

 

Personally, I just don't think Waid has shown any.

[Speedy-D]

Huh, I see just about zero connection between being about to write a comic book and being able to determine whether a movie is good or not. Just about the only requisite skill, I'd think, is being able successfully to watch a movie and subsequently form an opinion.

[The Troll King]

This movie was not great.

 

I'm really tired of everything "alien" looking the same in every movie that has anything to do with aliens or space.

 

Ask yourself...

which movie did this still come from?

 

 

Unfortunately they all look like this now.

[Bosco685]

Since the Mark Waid review keeps coming up, I went and read the entire thing. You can definitely tell he was a proud father when it came to the scenes he had influence over in the comic books.

 

Man of Steel, since you asked

 

It is the final ending that turned him off. Now the spoilers.

 

 

 

Waid's emotional summary of how he reacted to the scene that upset him the most, and turned him off to the film.

 

WAID: Superman wins by killing Zod. By snapping his neck. And as this moment was building, as Zod was out of control and Superman was (for the first time since the fishing boat 90 minutes ago) struggling to actually save innocent victims instead of casually catching them in mid-plummet, some crazy guy in front of us was muttering “Don’t do it…don’t do it…DON’T DO IT…” and then Superman snapped Zod’s neck and that guy stood up and said in a very loud voice, “THAT’S IT, YOU LOST ME, I’M OUT,” and his girlfriend had to literally pull him back into his seat and keep him from walking out and that crazy guy was me. That crazy guy was me, and I barely even remember doing that, I had to be told afterward that I’d done that, that’s how caught up in betrayal I felt. And after the neck-snapping, even though I stuck it out, I didn’t give a damn about the rest of the movie.

 

But someone's response to him drove home a good point.

 

RAUL: Well, that scene with Zod was a microcosm of Superman’s conflict of choosing between Krypton or Earth. He killed the only other remaining Kryptonian that he knew of to save the lives of human beings. I honestly believed he had no other choice and it sure beats him depowering Zod, throwing him into an endless pit, and then flying away smiling. I liked the film, and I want to see more from this franchise considering that at the end it seemed like he took all that happened to heart and will be more like the Superman we know and love. It is a shame that they decided to take 2 and a half hours to give us the Superman we love, but it would be a bigger shame to mark it as a failure and try to reboot it again in 10 years. The flaws can be fixed, the continuity can be fleshed out, and the potential for the perfect Superman movie is just in our grasp. This wasn’t it, but it can become it. Metropolis can be rebuilt to look more like the comics. Characters can be introduced as a result of Superman saving the world (Jimmy, Lex, etc). We don’t have to really worry about explaining why an alien in a costume is trusted by the world anymore and we don’t need another darn origin story. It would be a darn shame if the franchise doesn’t continue from here.

 

And Waid responded to that post in a way that made it clear to me he was most upset because this Superman movie didn't follow the traditional character design.

 

WAID: Raul: that may be the Superman you love, and you’re entitled to that, but it’s not the Superman I love.

 

So this seems to be the most polarizing piece out of the entire movie that is driving such a difference in opinion about the Man of Steel. In all his history, Superman was known not to kill.

 

Yet if you look at the story of the death of Superman, he had to beat Doomsday to death in order to save Metropolis from an unstoppable force. Hate that story all you want, but at the time it was quite moving to see Superman having to sacrifice his values in order to bring down the monster that was destroying his beloved city, and threatening the people he knew and loved. So whether it was Zod or Doomsday, seeing this super-being with the highest of morals making such a sacrifice is a key point in a character's development, and especially if they survive the battle and have to live with the consequences. That seems to make him more human, and vulnerable.

 

It is sounding like the potential one mistake the movie made is Superman's disregard for those being injured around him at a massive level, which is not something the traditional Superman (or any caring creature) would allow without a fight. But I haven't seen the movie yet to judge for myself how much of a miss this really was in the storyline.

 

 

 

[asr0462]

Since the Mark Waid review keeps coming up, I went and read the entire thing. You can definitely tell he was a proud father when it came to the scenes he had influence over in the comic books.

 

Man of Steel, since you asked

 

It is the final ending that turned him off. Now the spoilers.

 

 

 

Waid's emotional summary of how he reacted to the scene that upset him the most, and turned him off to the film.

 

WAID: Superman wins by killing Zod. By snapping his neck. And as this moment was building, as Zod was out of control and Superman was (for the first time since the fishing boat 90 minutes ago) struggling to actually save innocent victims instead of casually catching them in mid-plummet, some crazy guy in front of us was muttering “Don’t do it…don’t do it…DON’T DO IT…” and then Superman snapped Zod’s neck and that guy stood up and said in a very loud voice, “THAT’S IT, YOU LOST ME, I’M OUT,” and his girlfriend had to literally pull him back into his seat and keep him from walking out and that crazy guy was me. That crazy guy was me, and I barely even remember doing that, I had to be told afterward that I’d done that, that’s how caught up in betrayal I felt. And after the neck-snapping, even though I stuck it out, I didn’t give a damn about the rest of the movie.

 

But someone's response to him drove home a good point.

 

RAUL: Well, that scene with Zod was a microcosm of Superman’s conflict of choosing between Krypton or Earth. He killed the only other remaining Kryptonian that he knew of to save the lives of human beings. I honestly believed he had no other choice and it sure beats him depowering Zod, throwing him into an endless pit, and then flying away smiling. I liked the film, and I want to see more from this franchise considering that at the end it seemed like he took all that happened to heart and will be more like the Superman we know and love. It is a shame that they decided to take 2 and a half hours to give us the Superman we love, but it would be a bigger shame to mark it as a failure and try to reboot it again in 10 years. The flaws can be fixed, the continuity can be fleshed out, and the potential for the perfect Superman movie is just in our grasp. This wasn’t it, but it can become it. Metropolis can be rebuilt to look more like the comics. Characters can be introduced as a result of Superman saving the world (Jimmy, Lex, etc). We don’t have to really worry about explaining why an alien in a costume is trusted by the world anymore and we don’t need another darn origin story. It would be a darn shame if the franchise doesn’t continue from here.

 

And Waid responded to that post in a way that made it clear to me he was most upset because this Superman movie didn't follow the traditional character design.

 

WAID: Raul: that may be the Superman you love, and you’re entitled to that, but it’s not the Superman I love.

 

So this seems to be the most polarizing piece out of the entire movie that is driving such a difference in opinion about the Man of Steel. In all his history, Superman was known not to kill.

 

Yet if you look at the story of the death of Superman, he had to beat Doomsday to death in order to save Metropolis from an unstoppable force. Hate that story all you want, but at the time it was quite moving to see Superman having to sacrifice his values in order to bring down the monster that was destroying his beloved city, and threatening the people he knew and loved. So whether it was Zod or Doomsday, seeing this super-being with the highest of morals making such a sacrifice is a key point in a character's development, and especially if they survive the battle and have to live with the consequences. That seems to make him more human, and vulnerable.

 

It is sounding like the potential one mistake the movie made is Superman's disregard for those being injured around him at a massive level, which is not something the traditional Superman (or any caring creature) would allow without a fight. But I haven't seen the movie yet to judge for myself how much of a miss this really was in the storyline.

 

 

 

Waid is right. The ending of that fight was extremely disappointing from a fan who grew up with the character. It felt a bit like a betrayal actually.

[JasonDaTwit]

I am sure he is a decent comic book writer,but ask yourself

if millions read his best comic book work over these last 15 years would it entertain millions of people like videogames such as

 

The answer is not likely.

Waid`s style maybe was big in the 1990s,but millions of people have been exposed to a fast pace kinda style now.

Cellphones,HDTV,Internet and videogames.

Man of Steel fits right in with this new fast paced style of exciting entertainment.

Waid`s stuff is something that would work maybe as a weekly tv show.

 

You're confused about profitability and quality. They are sometimes synonymous but rarely are.

 

Just because Budweiser sells a ton of beer, doesn't make that beer good. It just makes it popular and profitable.

 

I haven't even seen the movie but you're doing a bad job stating your case. Video games (and Halo would be a bad example. It's infamous for being the worst thing to happen to shooters...ever. BUT, it made tonsssss of money.) aren't the best example and you're not going to win over anyone with a movie review when you think legit art films are stupid and boring.

 

I know...every movie isn't for everyone. I get it. But when trying to critique a thing, try to use better arguments than the, "It's popular and made money so it's gotta be good!" fallacy.

 

 

 

HA! Rob Liefeld was doing the "big$$$=great story" argument on his twitter feed & thats not always the case. IRON MAN2, THE DARK KNIGHT RISES & SKYFALL being a few that come to mind when it comes to crappy stories making tons of money.

[Bosco685]

Waid is right. The ending of that fight was extremely disappointing from a fan who grew up with the character. It felt a bit like a betrayal actually.

 

I still want to see it to judge for myself. But I can understand why a hardcore fan of Superman would not want anything major changing with the character design and associated values. That probably stepped over the line for quite a few folks.

[Shaven Kev-migration]

Not only did he turn to murder too quickly he also stood by and watched his dad die in a stupid scene with a giant tornado...

[asr0462]

Waid is right. The ending of that fight was extremely disappointing from a fan who grew up with the character. It felt a bit like a betrayal actually.

 

I still want to see it to judge for myself. But I can understand why a hardcore fan of Superman would not want anything major changing with the character design and associated values. That probably stepped over the line for quite a few folks.

 

I hope you enjoy the movie when you see it, but last scene makes the movie irredeemable for me.

[asr0462]

Not only did he turn to murder too quickly he also stood by and watched his dad die in a stupid scene with a giant tornado...

 

YEAH! That was "blanking" stupid!

[chrisware]

Listen, I love comics as much as the next guy.

 

I'm much more of a Marvel guy, but I certainly rank Superman (and obviously Batman) in my top 5 characters from amongst the long underwear set.

 

But let's try to remember that at least 95% of all Superman comics ever printed are complete garbage.

 

So if your argument is "That's not the Superman I know from the comics," then you've lost me.

 

Can you imagine pulling a random Silver Age Superman comic and basing the movie on it? It would be mocked out of the theater in 2 weeks and make about $8.

 

Basing a movie on decades of hack work that was aimed at children and the intellectually stunted is a much bigger betrayal of the character than anything I've read about Man of Steel so far.

 

Superman is a great character--not because of his comic book history but despite it.

[Speedy-D]

Alan Moore's Supreme run comes to mind as an excellent and successful modern take on SA Superman. A movie that had that approach and was well done would get me in the theater. I don't know how much money it'd make, but as has been said a million times, how good something is and how much it makes are almost completely unrelated.

[accessndx]

As far as Waid's objections are concerned: nobody comes out and states in the continuum of the movie as it played out that Supes obviously never had to utilize his powers in this way. He clearly never had an earth ending calamity to face....otherwise this wouldn't be the first movie.

He was thrown into the midst of a combat that he didn't want to initiate. He was given little or no alternative considering Zod was bred for battle and would literally stop at nothing to achieve his goal.

You simply can't give someone like that a 'time out' and put them in the corner facing the wall.

This portrayal of Supes gives him a more human history and human capacity to be flawed in spite of all his power.

The way he defends his mother is yet another example.

His entire world view of his role changed in one fell swoop after he donned the cape. It's diametrically opposed to the way his surrogate father raised him to be and he obviously saw that the time had come to change things and take control of the situation rather than hiding in the shadows reluctant to use his abilities.

I see the choices he made in this movie to be the best possible ones given the circumstances he faced in real time. There wasn't time to deliberate or debate....or moralize. The pace of these characer shaping decisions were forced upon him and he dealt with it in the only sane manner to end the conflict.

[Prince Namor]

You guys need to put this whole conversation in spoiler or someone is going to figure it out and be very disappointed.

[Bosco685]

Since the Mark Waid review keeps coming up, I went and read the entire thing. You can definitely tell he was a proud father when it came to the scenes he had influence over in the comic books.

 

Man of Steel, since you asked

 

It is the final ending that turned him off. Now the spoilers.

 

 

 

Waid's emotional summary of how he reacted to the scene that upset him the most, and turned him off to the film.

 

WAID: Superman wins by killing Zod. By snapping his neck. And as this moment was building, as Zod was out of control and Superman was (for the first time since the fishing boat 90 minutes ago) struggling to actually save innocent victims instead of casually catching them in mid-plummet, some crazy guy in front of us was muttering “Don’t do it…don’t do it…DON’T DO IT…” and then Superman snapped Zod’s neck and that guy stood up and said in a very loud voice, “THAT’S IT, YOU LOST ME, I’M OUT,” and his girlfriend had to literally pull him back into his seat and keep him from walking out and that crazy guy was me. That crazy guy was me, and I barely even remember doing that, I had to be told afterward that I’d done that, that’s how caught up in betrayal I felt. And after the neck-snapping, even though I stuck it out, I didn’t give a damn about the rest of the movie.

 

But someone's response to him drove home a good point.

 

RAUL: Well, that scene with Zod was a microcosm of Superman’s conflict of choosing between Krypton or Earth. He killed the only other remaining Kryptonian that he knew of to save the lives of human beings. I honestly believed he had no other choice and it sure beats him depowering Zod, throwing him into an endless pit, and then flying away smiling. I liked the film, and I want to see more from this franchise considering that at the end it seemed like he took all that happened to heart and will be more like the Superman we know and love. It is a shame that they decided to take 2 and a half hours to give us the Superman we love, but it would be a bigger shame to mark it as a failure and try to reboot it again in 10 years. The flaws can be fixed, the continuity can be fleshed out, and the potential for the perfect Superman movie is just in our grasp. This wasn’t it, but it can become it. Metropolis can be rebuilt to look more like the comics. Characters can be introduced as a result of Superman saving the world (Jimmy, Lex, etc). We don’t have to really worry about explaining why an alien in a costume is trusted by the world anymore and we don’t need another darn origin story. It would be a darn shame if the franchise doesn’t continue from here.

 

And Waid responded to that post in a way that made it clear to me he was most upset because this Superman movie didn't follow the traditional character design.

 

WAID: Raul: that may be the Superman you love, and you’re entitled to that, but it’s not the Superman I love.

 

So this seems to be the most polarizing piece out of the entire movie that is driving such a difference in opinion about the Man of Steel. In all his history, Superman was known not to kill.

 

Yet if you look at the story of the death of Superman, he had to beat Doomsday to death in order to save Metropolis from an unstoppable force. Hate that story all you want, but at the time it was quite moving to see Superman having to sacrifice his values in order to bring down the monster that was destroying his beloved city, and threatening the people he knew and loved. So whether it was Zod or Doomsday, seeing this super-being with the highest of morals making such a sacrifice is a key point in a character's development, and especially if they survive the battle and have to live with the consequences. That seems to make him more human, and vulnerable.

 

It is sounding like the potential one mistake the movie made is Superman's disregard for those being injured around him at a massive level, which is not something the traditional Superman (or any caring creature) would allow without a fight. But I haven't seen the movie yet to judge for myself how much of a miss this really was in the storyline.

 

 

 

Yeah!

 

[Drakeprimeone]

Since the Mark Waid review keeps coming up, I went and read the entire thing. You can definitely tell he was a proud father when it came to the scenes he had influence over in the comic books.

 

Man of Steel, since you asked

 

It is the final ending that turned him off. Now the spoilers.

 

 

 

Waid's emotional summary of how he reacted to the scene that upset him the most, and turned him off to the film.

 

WAID: Superman wins by killing Zod. By snapping his neck. And as this moment was building, as Zod was out of control and Superman was (for the first time since the fishing boat 90 minutes ago) struggling to actually save innocent victims instead of casually catching them in mid-plummet, some crazy guy in front of us was muttering “Don’t do it…don’t do it…DON’T DO IT…” and then Superman snapped Zod’s neck and that guy stood up and said in a very loud voice, “THAT’S IT, YOU LOST ME, I’M OUT,” and his girlfriend had to literally pull him back into his seat and keep him from walking out and that crazy guy was me. That crazy guy was me, and I barely even remember doing that, I had to be told afterward that I’d done that, that’s how caught up in betrayal I felt. And after the neck-snapping, even though I stuck it out, I didn’t give a damn about the rest of the movie.

 

But someone's response to him drove home a good point.

 

RAUL: Well, that scene with Zod was a microcosm of Superman’s conflict of choosing between Krypton or Earth. He killed the only other remaining Kryptonian that he knew of to save the lives of human beings. I honestly believed he had no other choice and it sure beats him depowering Zod, throwing him into an endless pit, and then flying away smiling. I liked the film, and I want to see more from this franchise considering that at the end it seemed like he took all that happened to heart and will be more like the Superman we know and love. It is a shame that they decided to take 2 and a half hours to give us the Superman we love, but it would be a bigger shame to mark it as a failure and try to reboot it again in 10 years. The flaws can be fixed, the continuity can be fleshed out, and the potential for the perfect Superman movie is just in our grasp. This wasn’t it, but it can become it. Metropolis can be rebuilt to look more like the comics. Characters can be introduced as a result of Superman saving the world (Jimmy, Lex, etc). We don’t have to really worry about explaining why an alien in a costume is trusted by the world anymore and we don’t need another darn origin story. It would be a darn shame if the franchise doesn’t continue from here.

 

And Waid responded to that post in a way that made it clear to me he was most upset because this Superman movie didn't follow the traditional character design.

 

WAID: Raul: that may be the Superman you love, and you’re entitled to that, but it’s not the Superman I love.

 

So this seems to be the most polarizing piece out of the entire movie that is driving such a difference in opinion about the Man of Steel. In all his history, Superman was known not to kill.

 

Yet if you look at the story of the death of Superman, he had to beat Doomsday to death in order to save Metropolis from an unstoppable force. Hate that story all you want, but at the time it was quite moving to see Superman having to sacrifice his values in order to bring down the monster that was destroying his beloved city, and threatening the people he knew and loved. So whether it was Zod or Doomsday, seeing this super-being with the highest of morals making such a sacrifice is a key point in a character's development, and especially if they survive the battle and have to live with the consequences. That seems to make him more human, and vulnerable.

 

It is sounding like the potential one mistake the movie made is Superman's disregard for those being injured around him at a massive level, which is not something the traditional Superman (or any caring creature) would allow without a fight. But I haven't seen the movie yet to judge for myself how much of a miss this really was in the storyline.

 

 

 

Yeah!

 

 

Whats interesting to me is that the only part Waid really had a problem with was the very end. To me that shows that he didn't have a problem with the movie itself just one particular scene. For him that was enough to kill the whole movie. I say that if the movie was powerful enough to illicit the type of emotional response he gave in the theater then THAT is a good movie. On a broader scope it seems that most people had the same general complaint. The movie itself was good and a great platform to continue to flesh out this Superman in later installments.

[Bosco685]

Whats interesting to me is that the only part Waid really had a problem with was the very end. To me that shows that he didn't have a problem with the movie itself just one particular scene. For him that was enough to kill the whole movie. I say that if the movie was powerful enough to illicit the type of emotional response he gave in the theater then THAT is a good movie. On a broader scope it seems that most people had the same general complaint. The movie itself was good and a great platform to continue to flesh out this Superman in later installments.

I do agree. He appears to have really enjoyed a large portion of the movie. And he recognized some of his influence with the Birthright storyline similarities.

 

 

 

 

And I genuinely enjoyed the first two-thirds or so of the movie. Krypton was great. Zod was great. Really, there was a lot to like there. And I got my first of many proud-papa BIRTHRIGHT glows when we cut straight from the rocket’s entry to Clark as an adult, and I grinned like an insufficiently_thoughtful_person at the many, many other BIRTHRIGHT moments. I can’t really describe for you what it feels like to me to see evidence that I really have been lucky enough to add a few lasting elements to the Superman myth.

 

So I guess it was okay as long as it stuck to his storyline.