Trading Post/PIF/Giving Tree Discussion Thread

[VintageComics]

Does anyone else think that this thread draws more problems than positives?

 

I was originally a huge fan of the thread idea but I didn't really foresee how the thread could become problematic and maybe my original take on the thread was naive.

 

The beauty of Pay It Forward and the reason it works in the real world is because the person giving is generally an individual giving to another specific individual. The giver does the choosing of whom they are giving to (and just as importantly, only the two people involved in the act know about it).

 

When someone from a group is choosing what they are going to take that negates the most important parts of Pay It Forward - the filling of a need and the anonymous interaction between two parties. It becomes about the taker, and then you have enforce rules about what is appropriate reimbursement.

 

That change in dynamic in turn creates opportunity for abuse and the Pay It Forward thread is no longer a PIF thread. It's a gift shop.

 

Does anyone think I'm wrong for seeing it this way?

[Jeffro.]

Does anyone else think that this thread draws more problems than positives?

 

I was originally a huge fan of the thread idea but I didn't really foresee how the thread could become problematic and maybe my original take on the thread was naive.

 

The beauty of Pay It Forward and the reason it works in the real world is because the person giving is generally an individual giving to another specific individual. The giver does the choosing of whom they are giving to (and just as importantly, only the two people involved in the act know about it).

 

When someone from a group is choosing what they are going to take that negates the most important parts of Pay It Forward - the filling of a need and the anonymous interaction between two parties. It becomes about the taker, and then you have enforce rules about what is appropriate reimbursement.

 

That change in dynamic in turn creates opportunity for abuse and the Pay It Forward thread is no longer a PIF thread. It's a gift shop.

 

Does anyone think I'm wrong for seeing it this way?

 

No, I think you're on. This thread illustrates beautifully how PIF works in the real world but doesn't work here.

[revat]

on the other hand, it doesn't hurt anyone who doesn't play. if its not your bag, no big deal to stay out. If the bad guys kill it, no great tragedy to let it stay dead.

[1Cool]

so hey - I have read a lot here - but not all of the history

 

but a quick summary ( and feel free to comment here)

 

obviously - the intent of the PIF is so that people can trade out books/comic related items

 

system operates on honor system and open to abuse

 

People can profiteer by taking books of higher value - and then offering up lower value items. They may have help from a buddy claiming their low value books (then they can post offers that do not get taken and player 1 still gets the PIF).

 

Self policing (where the offer poster can refuse the based on the next guys offers - seems problematic to me. Long standing boardies can pretty easily weather bad feelings - but a newb like me would be more hesitant to ding the next guy.

 

So - to me some options come to mind - but obviously these may have been discussed before -

 

1. More limitations to how often someone can claim - maybe even add time to how long an offer can be out there (more visibility to others?) . This would help reduce the problem - buy limiting how often the donkey can grab something.

 

2. Change the revert rules - so the second offer has to be claimed before one ships. So - I claimed an offer (offer 1) - my offer was claimed (offer 2) - but the next guys offer (offer 3) - is still out there. Now - if offer three is not taken - reverts back to me and offer 1 is NOT sent (then you can give me another week to have my offer taken). This has a little more self policing and less potential for a person and a buddy to abuse since two transactions are required.

 

3. I know that the value is not to be discussed in the main thread and it is an honor system - but has a minimum value range been proposed? Like the offers should be $50 or more FMV?

 

 

#2 is obviously more effort than #1 (really just for the tracking of it) - but might have better results.

 

 

The very best way would be to have a tracked list of participants and the a maintained PIF HOS/probation list - but that seems like a lot of work and individual effort.

 

 

later all

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The time limit between accepted offers was tried in the Giving Tree thread and it had to be quickly reduced because there really is only a few people who want to participate in a thread like this and the pool of people was quickly used up.

 

Reverting back to two people sounds like a good idea until you try to keep track of it all. Reverting back to the previous offer after 4 days is problematic in itself sometimes but going further back is crazy hard to keep track of and figuring out when to ship your books in that scenario would be tough.

 

Setting a price limit is kind of set by the high shipping cost of books. I know some International people try to participate but when shipping cost are higher then the books they are shipping it kind of deletes the purpose. Having an offer which is worth $10 would also be crazy since it cost $5 or more to ship a small set of books.

 

A lot of people have worked for numerous hours going over rule changes so almost every conceivable way to make these type of threads better has been gone over at this point. What ever you do don't PM Harvey about possible rule changes - he doesn't like that.

[1Cool]

Does anyone else think that this thread draws more problems than positives?

 

I was originally a huge fan of the thread idea but I didn't really foresee how the thread could become problematic and maybe my original take on the thread was naive.

 

The beauty of Pay It Forward and the reason it works in the real world is because the person giving is generally an individual giving to another specific individual. The giver does the choosing of whom they are giving to (and just as importantly, only the two people involved in the act know about it).

 

When someone from a group is choosing what they are going to take that negates the most important parts of Pay It Forward - the filling of a need and the anonymous interaction between two parties. It becomes about the taker, and then you have enforce rules about what is appropriate reimbursement.

 

That change in dynamic in turn creates opportunity for abuse and the Pay It Forward thread is no longer a PIF thread. It's a gift shop.

 

Does anyone think I'm wrong for seeing it this way?

 

I think you are correct on a bunch of items but I'd call it more of a trading thread rather then a gift shop. I guess a three way trade is easier to do since a true trading thread was short lived.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I heard there was a hulabaloo in this thread.

 

Is it so?

 

If not, is there at least a fracas? Brouhaha? Hurly-burly?

 

[1Cool]

I heard there was a hulabaloo in this thread.

 

Is it so?

 

If not, is there at least a fracas? Brouhaha? Hurly-burly?

 

 

[Boboset]

Does anyone else think that this thread draws more problems than positives?

 

I was originally a huge fan of the thread idea but I didn't really foresee how the thread could become problematic and maybe my original take on the thread was naive.

 

The beauty of Pay It Forward and the reason it works in the real world is because the person giving is generally an individual giving to another specific individual. The giver does the choosing of whom they are giving to (and just as importantly, only the two people involved in the act know about it).

 

When someone from a group is choosing what they are going to take that negates the most important parts of Pay It Forward - the filling of a need and the anonymous interaction between two parties. It becomes about the taker, and then you have enforce rules about what is appropriate reimbursement.

 

That change in dynamic in turn creates opportunity for abuse and the Pay It Forward thread is no longer a PIF thread. It's a gift shop.

 

Does anyone think I'm wrong for seeing it this way?

 

You're right of course. The basic rules of the thread exclude it from being a true pay it forward experience.

 

It can be a nice experience and there are many generous people involved (Techvoodoo, CAHokie, Doc McCoy, Allujay and Gsims immediately come to mind).

[KPR Comics]

I heard there was a hulabaloo in this thread.

 

Is it so?

 

If not, is there at least a fracas? Brouhaha? Hurly-burly?

 

 

For sure there was a dust up, some flimflammery and quite possibly... shenanigans

[Jeffro.]

I heard there was a hulabaloo in this thread.

 

Is it so?

 

If not, is there at least a fracas? Brouhaha? Hurly-burly?

 

 

More like a kerfuffle

[Dick Pontoon]

Lotsa tsuris if you ask me.

[Ditch Fahrenheit]

Does anyone else think that this thread draws more problems than positives?

 

I was originally a huge fan of the thread idea but I didn't really foresee how the thread could become problematic and maybe my original take on the thread was naive.

 

The beauty of Pay It Forward and the reason it works in the real world is because the person giving is generally an individual giving to another specific individual. The giver does the choosing of whom they are giving to (and just as importantly, only the two people involved in the act know about it).

 

When someone from a group is choosing what they are going to take that negates the most important parts of Pay It Forward - the filling of a need and the anonymous interaction between two parties. It becomes about the taker, and then you have enforce rules about what is appropriate reimbursement.

 

That change in dynamic in turn creates opportunity for abuse and the Pay It Forward thread is no longer a PIF thread. It's a gift shop.

 

Does anyone think I'm wrong for seeing it this way?

 

I think the original intent was awesome. Here's a book...I'm done with it...maybe someone else can get some enjoyment from reading it...take it and put something similar in it's place for someone else. But it has now morphed into something different. I think the regulars here would love a trading site rather than the current format, but it's difficult to make that work.

 

The problem with PIF is it that it has always been a magnet for hurt feelings, which is never good. And it's sad to see some people making enemies and/or ruining their board reputations over inexpensive books in a thread that was started with such noble intentions.

[spidrvacc]

I agree the original intent is gone. Its not really a PIF anymore. The original offer was a simple OA book. Intent was if you got something lying around the house you dont need , offer it up to someone. Does not matter what it is . Seemed to flow good BUT once someone put up a Xmen 100 CGC 9.2 the expectations grow. Now offers have to match. You cant just put up what you have lying around or your extras or what you cant sell. Now you have to put up items that would sell fast if foe sale. Its a totally different animal now.

[Boboset]

I agree the original intent is gone. Its not really a PIF anymore. The original offer was a simple OA book. Intent was if you got something lying around the house you dont need , offer it up to someone. Does not matter what it is . Seemed to flow good BUT once someone put up a Xmen 100 CGC 9.2 the expectations grow. Now offers have to match. You cant just put up what you have lying around or your extras or what you cant sell. Now you have to put up items that would sell fast if foe sale. Its a totally different animal now.

 

I disagree that raised expectations were the catalyst of change. It was the continued abuse that pushed people towards wanting matching value. Go far back, look at the earliest examples of finger pointing, and I'm sure you'll see multiple takes with unfair return before that person was called out.

[comix4fun]

I agree the original intent is gone. Its not really a PIF anymore. The original offer was a simple OA book. Intent was if you got something lying around the house you dont need , offer it up to someone. Does not matter what it is . Seemed to flow good BUT once someone put up a Xmen 100 CGC 9.2 the expectations grow. Now offers have to match. You cant just put up what you have lying around or your extras or what you cant sell. Now you have to put up items that would sell fast if foe sale. Its a totally different animal now.

 

 

I agree that the better items have increased expectations that people go stride for stride or at least try. It's the swings (usually rapid) between the offers that sours the experience.

 

I've personally witnessed swings in excess of $200 in a single day. Recently I noticed something taken that was $100-125 and each of the next three offers dropped by 40-50% until we hit $20. That all happened in a day.

 

It's impossible for the original giver (and the people in the chain) to not feel like someone's gaming the whole deal when you see something like that.

[Boboset]

I wish I didn't care so much. It seems like a colossal waste of my time as I fight against the tide.

 

It bugs me so much because it's a thread built upon charity and good will, but it's infested with parasites. We have a thread pinned to the top of the forum with the most action on this site and I feel like it's a trap for unsuspecting generous people.

 

I do not like building a reputation as a junk donkey wrangler. It's not good for me on pretty much every level.

[VintageComics]

I agree the original intent is gone. Its not really a PIF anymore. The original offer was a simple OA book. Intent was if you got something lying around the house you dont need , offer it up to someone. Does not matter what it is . Seemed to flow good BUT once someone put up a Xmen 100 CGC 9.2 the expectations grow. Now offers have to match. You cant just put up what you have lying around or your extras or what you cant sell. Now you have to put up items that would sell fast if foe sale. Its a totally different animal now.

 

 

I agree that the better items have increased expectations that people go stride for stride or at least try. It's the swings (usually rapid) between the offers that sours the experience.

 

I've personally witnessed swings in excess of $200 in a single day. Recently I noticed something taken that was $100-125 and each of the next three offers dropped by 40-50% until we hit $20. That all happened in a day.

 

It's impossible for the original giver (and the people in the chain) to not feel like someone's gaming the whole deal when you see something like that.

 

My idea of a PIF experience is finding someone in the WTB section that happens to need something and you send it to them.

 

I agree that with the rules and regulations the PIF thread is more of a trading post.

[1Cool]

I do like the discussion taking place here in the regular forum. A bunch of us where talking ourself horse up in the Play It Forward thread and it seemed like everyone ignored it while it stayed up in the stickied thread. I will have to defend the thread since I've seen some people being very generous at times but it definetely was counterbalanced by the negatives. Maybe some good will come out of the discussions.

[KPR Comics]

Nailed it, Roy. A true PIF would be just randomly sending a book to someone and that someone doing the same and so on and so forth. Any controversy, if at all, would remain b/w the giver and the recipient. Hard to police, and hard to prevent one person getting multiple PIFs, which in turn might be a burden on them to have ship to multiple recipients.

All that said, it was/is a great experiment and I commend all those who maintain and participate (junk donkeys excluded of course - you know who you are).

 

[wombat]

It seems like there would just be an ever increasing value if everyone "played fair" and a lot of people would be quickly outpriced from participating .