MONDAY'S COMIC ZONE- CGC'S STEVE BOROCK & PAUL LITCH

[drbanner]

I think the main sticking point about PRESSING,

pro or amature ...is that those who are against it, feel it needs to be identifed as a form of RESTO.

 

Which makes me ask the question, can you 100% tell if a book was Pro Pressed?, or just stacked for years in a box under 75 heavy magazines.

 

I don't believe you can tell 100% of the time that a book has been profesionally pressed, if it's been squeezed into a long box for 25 years with moldy butter, or if it's even been pressed at all.

 

Per your earlier point, it seems to me that regardless of what you call it, the main sticking point about PRESSING, pro or amature ...is that those who are both for and against it feel it needs to be IDENTIFIED. The end user should be able to decide whether pressing is resto, or just pressing.

 

Guys, it's AMATEUR. Not "amature". Sorry, I just felt I ought to mention it.

 

That's what I get for cut-n-paste!!

[jimm94]

So, boys and girls, in summary:

 

CGC can't publicly admit to slab damage being a legitimate problem because they would get their buns sued off of them and likely never have an opportunity to correct the problem due to the high financial costs of fighting litigation. For now, most collectors are willing to take their chances with an imperfect CGC inner well because, unlike buying or selling raw, at least they are getting good grading and a resto check (besides pressing, that is ). Hopefully CGC takes this issue seriously and is working on this behind closed doors to come up with a solution.

 

Turnaround times have remained consistent or have improved to a certain degree within the last 6 months or so, but the lower priced tiers still lag far behind their advertised estimates. The upcoming magazine grading service will probably not affect comic turnaround times since magazines will be graded by a different set of eyes. I see a potential bottleneck in the encapsulation process, but this could be eliminated by adding more equipment and employees.

 

Pressing is not detectable 100% of the time, and is one of the hobby's dirty little secrets. Whether or not it is restoration, CGC has made a conscious decision to let this slide so that their service has broader acceptance within the dealer community. It's a lot like putting GA books with CT in Blue label slabs, except it remains undocumented if/when detected.

 

Love,

 

-Jim

 

PS - I own pressed books and books with slab damage too. I have a great deal of respect for all of the CGC employees and wish them many years of success.

[FFB]

Oh, and Scott, pressing IS NOT RESTORATION

 

I figured that you had left for the day, so no worries. I knew you'd be back.

 

Anyway, on your point above, I could not disagree more. If you are removing a defect from a comic book so that the defect is no longer perceptible, you are restoring it to its original shape/condition. The fact that your company has decided not to slab those books with purple labels does not change the fact that the great majority of collectors and dealers I have encountered in my 25 years in the hobby agree with me on this.

 

If pressing isn't restoration, then how come no dealers will admit to doing it? (Except for perhaps Marnin Rosenberg, who admits it with a guilty tone, and who also says that it IS restoration.) Link to article The answer is clear: pressing IS restoration.

 

The great irony here is that by deciding not to classify it as such, and by slabbing books that are pressed, the end result is that a collector who does not like pressed books has no way of knowing that a slabbed book he is buying might be pressed. The evidence is locked away in the holder (without any notation on the label) and there's no way to detect the pressing without opening the holder and invalidating the certification. If you are going to answer only one question out of all of the questions that I've raised in this post, please answer this one: How is this collector "better off" as a result of the decision not to note the pressing on the label? (In other words, how has certification helped him, as opposed to helping to deceive him?)

 

We're a bit far afield from the slab damage issue, but since you brought up the "pressing isn't restoration" issue, now seemed like a good time for this question.

 

[Ze-man]

Me personally, I think the new pressing craze is much more acute on this message board than it is in the real world...just like missed resto and slab damage are.

 

I agree.. we here on the boards have all of these topics under a much larger microscope, then most of the general public.

 

And Steve.. I know that pressing has been around since way back.

I perhaps used the term "New Craze" as a comment on the latest pressing threads here on the boards.. mainly those centering around a few dealers.. and those that questioned if all of the HG books they sell are pressed or not.

 

Or those that feel a 9.0 comic can be cracked, pressed, resubmited, and resold for twice what it did before pressing.

Pressing a comic and selling it might not be a new selling practice ....I will give you that.

 

But using your comapny as a tool to make more money, by pressing comics,submitting them, and recieving higher grades is kinda a new craze.

Ze-

[jhumd-migration]

I agree with FFB and ZeMan on these topics.

 

Simply put, I think that slab induced damage and rampant pressing are the two biggest problems facing the high grade comic market today. CGC certainly didn't invent pressing as I can recall this taking place on high grade books when I started collecting in the 80's (and likely long before). The liquid nature of slabbed high grade books has, in my opinion, certainly accelerated both the frequency in which books are pressed and the prevalence of pressed books in the market. This could be curtailed if detectible pressing (believe me, plenty are detectible) were at least noted on the label, regardless of whether one believes this should qualify as restoration or not.

 

Personally, I first encountered slab induced damage with the first cgc books I sent in 4 years ago. It was disheartening, to say the least, to have books that were in my collection for many years return graded with overhang impressions from the inner wells, and in one case a tear. I have yet to see a viable solution from cgc. The addition of the wedges helped, but I would suspect that most collectors, such as myself, find damage on their slabbed comics still at an unacceptible rate.

 

This hasn't led me to abandon the hobby that I love, but it has modified my spending/purchasing habits as I can only stomach buying books in person that I can closely inspect for both slab damage and obvious pressing.

 

I refer to these problems as SWS, shaken wafer syndrome. Books that have been pressed to the point of being wafer-thin (most noticeable on covers when characters eyes are practically popping out of their heads from being squeezed) and then incur indentations and various other forms of damage from the design of the slabbed wells.

 

Mr. Borock et al, please understand that for every FFB or Beyonder or Ze-Man that publically comes on this forum to discuss these problems, there are multiples more that are quietly disgruntled. Kind of like the kid in class who raised his hand to ask a question, you know there were at least 10 others who were thinking the same thing, but didn't bother to ask. I hope you will take my input and those of others as they were meant to be, constructive criticism, and ultimately create a better product.

[goldust40]

This is not a "new craze". If you own pre-1978 books that you did not buy of the stands, you probably have Pressed books in your collection. If you own GA books, it is about a 95% chance some of those are pressed.

 

 

Ditto on the front. The trouble is, Steve's correct - I hear the occasional tacit admission from certain people that probably wasn't meant for my ears, and having dealt in G.A. and S.A. for a considerable time, I feel it's all too likely that undisclosed pressing is possibly as widespread as he says (although very much I'd've thought at the top end).

 

New craze or otherwise, the fact that pressing has been around for decades doesn't mean that efforts shouldn't be made now to actually tackle the issue and spot tell-tale signs. What about ink transference on the interior pages, for example?

[sborock]

Because professional pressing done correctly CANNOT be detected most of the time and CGC is not going to guess if a book is pressed or not. Imagine getting a book back from us that has sat in a stack for years and the label says pressed because we "think" it could have been pressed.

 

Certification is not a guessing game. Restoration is only on the label if we can prove it, we never put on the label "we think there might be color touch" we put down "restoration includes: color touch"

[FFB]

And BTW...CGC holders do not damage the slabbed book...rather it is the handling (or mishandling) of a CGC slab that causes the damage...JMO...

 

Come on, RH, that's a cop out.

 

NORMAL handling of a CGC slab can result in slab damage. Not dropping it off of a third story roof. Not shooting it with a Bazooka. Just a simple trip through the mail, even if packed securely as CGC does when they send the book. If the slab cannot protect a book from damage during normal handling (such as a couple trips through the mail, which almost every CGC book will undergo), what good is it?

 

A better design is needed and fast. Ze-Man's test showed that, and also showed that there IS a better design available.

[FFB]

Because professional pressing done correctly CANNOT be detected most of the time and CGC is not going to guess if a book is pressed or not. Imagine getting a book back from us that has sat in a stack for years and the label says pressed because we "think" it could have been pressed.

 

Certification is not a guessing game. Restoration is only on the label if we can prove it, we never put on the label "we think there might be color touch" we put down "restoration includes: color touch"

 

OK, but what about for the books that you CAN detect? You guys can't always detect if a book was solvent cleaned, but when you can, you always note it. No one's asking you to slab books purple when you're not sure. But when you are sure, you should at least note the pressing on the label, regardless of the label's color.

[ArAich]

Come on, RH, that's a cop out.

 

Well...I don't consider it a cop out but I also believe that the majority of damage books ala: SCS is due to rough mishandling by various parties during the transportation of a book...

 

BTW..I do have a solution for SCS...

 

The inner well needs to be designed in a concave manner..ie: center portion is thicker with a taper going towards the outer edges that is thinner than the book being slabbed...

This way if a book is shaken, dropped or what have you...then the book is naturally wedged without any damage being caused to the entombed book...

[sborock]

Because professional pressing done correctly CANNOT be detected most of the time and CGC is not going to guess if a book is pressed or not. Imagine getting a book back from us that has sat in a stack for years and the label says pressed because we "think" it could have been pressed.

 

Certification is not a guessing game. Restoration is only on the label if we can prove it, we never put on the label "we think there might be color touch" we put down "restoration includes: color touch"

 

OK, but what about for the books that you CAN detect? You guys can't always detect if a book was solvent cleaned, but when you can, you always note it. No one's asking you to slab books purple when you're not sure. But when you are sure, you should at least note the pressing on the label, regardless of the label's color.

 

When we see a "badly" pressed book, we treat it as handling damage and down grade for it. We have "hit" many books for cleaned and/or staples replaced and then have gotten a call from the submitter saying " So and so pressed this book, it has not been cleaned" or "I only pressed the book. The staple(s) had to be taken out and moved to press it. They have not been replaced." CGC does not change the label for these people, even our biggest submitters, or friends I have had for years. Does this cause me some problems, yes, but that is CGC's policy.

[burntboy]

 

I refer to these problems as SWS, shaken wafer syndrome. Books that have been pressed to the point of being wafer-thin (most noticeable on covers when characters eyes are practically popping out of their heads from being squeezed) and then incur indentations and various other forms of damage from the design of the slabbed wells.

 

are you serious here?? the notion of the characters eyeballs looking like they're popping out of their heads due to the pressing of the book is pretty amusing.

 

on the other hand i agree with the potential damage being caused by the current slab design. in one of the first threads on this topic zeman and i agreed that an inner well w/o the indentations made of thick mylar would almost certainly eliminate the current problem of the corner damages. in fact some of my oldest slabs don't have the recessed well and the books fit snugly top and bottom - but i suspect that these too could get damaged over time.

 

which brings me to my last point; i've gone back over my 130 CGC submissions and i have ZERO slab damage!!! i firmly believe that the bulk of the damge that folks are seeing is from books that they have purchased as slabbed and who knows how many times those books have been sold and resold. the books that have been sent in by me to CGC and then encapsulated and returned in their EXCELLENT packaging are flawless. but when you get a book sold 3 times and shipped by three different sellers using varying degrees of care, you get banged and bruised.

 

and that's why there is still a need to change the inner well IMHO........

 

short of that, just buy from me.................

[Illiterati-migration]

Thanks for all the wonderful answers, Steve... but this is bothering me:

 

CGC does not change the label for these people, even our biggest submitters, or friends I have had for years. Does this cause me some problems, yes, but that is CGC's policy.

 

What sorts of concessions DO you make for your biggest submitters and/or friends that would lead them to believe that you would change the label for them? After all, if it causes you "some problems", then I would gather that people with whom you are closely affiliated ASSUME that you are going to make certain special concessions for them... and that's why they "cause (you) some problems" after you inform them that they will NOT be getting special treatment in this instance?

 

Why would they assume you would change a label for them in the first place?

 

What sorts of "changes" have you (CGC) made in the past?

 

Who are these people?

 

 

[nearmint]

Thanks for all the wonderful answers, Steve... but this is bothering me:

 

CGC does not change the label for these people, even our biggest submitters, or friends I have had for years. Does this cause me some problems, yes, but that is CGC's policy.

 

What sorts of concessions DO you make for your biggest submitters and/or friends that would lead them to believe that you would change the label for them? After all, if it causes you "some problems", then I would gather that people with whom you are closely affiliated ASSUME that you are going to make certain special concessions for them... and that's why they "cause (you) some problems" after you inform them that they will NOT be getting special treatment in this instance?

 

Why would they assume you would change a label for them in the first place?

 

What sorts of "changes" have you (CGC) made in the past?

 

Who are these people?

 

 

And wasn't that you on the grassy knoll??

[sfilosa]

1) Regarding slab damage - If you buy the label not the book, then there is no problem (assuming the label doesn't have slab damage).

 

2) Regarding turnaround times - All the good books have already been certified, so what's the big deal to get inferior books back quickly.

 

3) Pressing is not restoration - Except when pressing using a waffle maker. Seeing those little boxes is a dead giveaway.

 

OK - NOW SERIOUSLY

 

1) Slab damage - I have around 200 CGC books and I believe two have slab damage. And how does anyone know if the damage was there before slabbing? A small tear in an overhang might not show up. But when pushed down a bit, it is more evident (but it was always there).

 

2) Turnaround times - Obvioulsy, everyone (including CGC) wishes they would improve (but it is what it is).

 

3) Pressing - According to CGC, Pressing is not Restoration (once again, it is what it is). And it never will be (unless they invalidate everything they have already graded).

[garthgantu]

Either way I can understand why people feel it is important to trust CGC to let them know before buying a comic if it has indeed been pressed, or not.

 

Which makes me ask the question, can you 100% tell if a book was Pro Pressed?, or was just stacked for years in a box, under 75 heavy magazines.

Because if you cant , then I can see why Pressing is not considered Resto, if it can happen naturally.

 

So to answer your question Foolkiller.. IMHO, sellers will never admit to pressing , because it means the comic might lose some of it's allure.. and not sell for as high a price.

Plain and simple... it is about the green.

 

Ze-

 

No question it's all about the green, Ze-man... and I think you indirectly hit the nail on the head here.

 

There are forms of pressing that CGC considers restoration, involving disassembly of the book. There are forms of pressing that CGC does not consider pressing, that do not require disassembling the book.

 

The fact that only pressing that is detectable by CGC is regarded as restoration by CGC has always struck me as very convenient for CGC - and the major dealers who do such pressing.

 

"Well, we can generally identify this kind of pressing, so that's definitely restoration...but there's this other form of pressing that we frequently cannot detect, and that is being done by some of our biggest customers, so this will fall into the non-restored category."

[Illiterati-migration]

1) Slab damage - I have around 200 CGC books and I believe two have slab damage. And how does anyone know if the damage was there before slabbing? A small tear in an overhang might not show up. But when pushed down a bit, it is more evident (but it was always there).

 

Detecting small tears in an overhang? Doesn't CGC EXIST SPECIFICALLY FOR THAT REASON?

 

2) Turnaround times - Obvioulsy, everyone (including CGC) wishes they would improve (but it is what it is).

 

It's not an insurmountable obstacle. It could be fixed, or the turnaround times could be modified to actually represent a REALISTIC timeframe.

 

3) Pressing - According to CGC, Pressing is not Restoration (once again, it is what it is). And it never will be (unless they invalidate everything they have already graded).

 

So, you're saying that CGC is cemented in their own past mistakes and can't move forward? Well, at least that explains most of their current policies...

[sborock]

Thanks for all the wonderful answers, Steve... but this is bothering me:

 

CGC does not change the label for these people, even our biggest submitters, or friends I have had for years. Does this cause me some problems, yes, but that is CGC's policy.

 

What sorts of concessions DO you make for your biggest submitters and/or friends that would lead them to believe that you would change the label for them? After all, if it causes you "some problems", then I would gather that people with whom you are closely affiliated ASSUME that you are going to make certain special concessions for them... and that's why they "cause (you) some problems" after you inform them that they will NOT be getting special treatment in this instance?

 

Why would they assume you would change a label for them in the first place?

 

What sorts of "changes" have you (CGC) made in the past?

 

Who are these people?

 

 

Were did you get the idea that they assume anything from my post. That is what you are doing. Once again, you are here to "stir things up". Please don't twist around what I or other people say. You are not helping this discussion, please stay away from my posts until the time you actually have something constructive to add and not just go looking for WMD's that do not exist or just feel like poking a thread or poster, like a child will poke an caged animal just to get a rise out of it.

 

When I say problems, I mean, I get a 20 minute dissertation on how CGC' s stance is wrong and why we should change it. Like any business, by being a good clients and/or friends I have known for years, you give them the chance to "argue" their case at length (like we let you do here) Once in a while, people come up with great thoughts on how to do things better/differently and we then adapt to make our service better. Many people have been around a lot longer than those of us at CGC, we respect their opinions and knowledge, and there is nothing wrong with listening to your customers whether you take their advice or not.

[garthgantu]

If you are going to answer only one question out of all of the questions that I've raised in this post, please answer this one: How is this collector "better off" as a result of the decision not to note the pressing on the label? (In other words, how has certification helped him, as opposed to helping to deceive him?)

 

Scott, I think the answer lies ultimately in "who IS the CGC customer?" Is it the collector, or the dealer who caters to the collector? While CGC has tried to present its service as a boon to any and all in the back issue "community," all of CGC's actions/decisions belie this contention. Three prime examples:

 

- Removing the letter grade from the slab: makes it easier to sell a NM- 9.2

 

- Declaring that certain "undetectable" forms of pressing are not resto: assists those dealers and speculators and restorers who have the wherewithall to obtain a large, moderately expensive book press and devote the time necessary to use it for financial gain.

 

- Ignoring or dismissing as insignificant the issue of SCS: helps allay (legitimate) concerns on the part of collectors buying slabs; as a dealer, I don't really care if the book inside the slab is still a 9.8, as long as a collector will pay me "9.8 money" for the book.

[drbanner]

... just feel like poking a thread or poster, like a child will poke an caged animal just to get a rise out of it.

 

MK Steve