CGC Issue Resolved

[easyt63]

(Do you) really think that receiving is going to not divulge the fact that the book has already been graded?

 

If we are to put our trust in the company, then yes, yes I do believe that receiving doesn't tell the graders it has already been graded. If one can't believe that, then the entire company is useless in that person's eyes. Why trust the grade at all? Why not believe they swap out books for later prints? Why not just "lose" books and sell them raw to line their pockets?

 

 

 

-slym

 

You just took a simple hypothetical scenario of inter-organization communication to perhaps criminal fraud activity. Your point is moot.

 

 

Clearly you think that this communication happens and the graders aren't grading blindly. So tell me, what would the advantage to this be for CGC?

 

Please tell me you were just practicing your typing skills and you didn't seriously ask that question.

 

In case you did ask that question because you couldn't figure it out yourself, get on the couch and share some popcorn with Slym, because here comes the answer...

 

To avoid situations like this.

 

 

[AlexanderM]

So CGC got better at resto (trimming) detection ... how is that bad ?

 

Yeah... it is very bad for someone like the TS.

 

But if CGC did not correctly detect restoration the first time... there are two possibilities:

 

1. They keep the blue label because that is what they assigned first.

 

or

 

2. They give it a purple label because now they actually discovered they were restored.

 

If the book is in fact restored... it seems CGC has to go with option B - eventhough it suck getting caught in that circus...

[LordRahl]

(Do you) really think that receiving is going to not divulge the fact that the book has already been graded?

 

If we are to put our trust in the company, then yes, yes I do believe that receiving doesn't tell the graders it has already been graded. If one can't believe that, then the entire company is useless in that person's eyes. Why trust the grade at all? Why not believe they swap out books for later prints? Why not just "lose" books and sell them raw to line their pockets?

 

 

 

-slym

 

You just took a simple hypothetical scenario of inter-organization communication to perhaps criminal fraud activity. Your point is moot.

 

 

Clearly you think that this communication happens and the graders aren't grading blindly. So tell me, what would the advantage to this be for CGC?

 

Please tell me you were just practicing your typing skills and you didn't seriously ask that question.

 

In case you did ask that question because you couldn't figure it out yourself, get on the couch and share some popcorn with Slym, because here comes the answer...

 

To avoid situations like this.

 

 

Oh boy, have you read this thread or are you just coming in hot and firing away without any knowledge of WTF is going on. How would this situation be avoided by that communication, pray tell? The books were submitted raw. So what were the receiving folks supposed to have told the graders that would somehow be advantageous and avoid this situation? How would this submission have been any different than any of the thousands of other submissions they get every year?

 

In case you meant that normally happens (but didn't in this case because the books were already de-slabbed), let me counter that argument as well. IF that were happening, do you think we'd get all of the examples on this board of books that were re-subbed coming back different grades? There have been numerous examples of books re-subbed still slabbed coming back different grades. Don't you think that IF the graders had knowledge from the receiving folks that the PC copy of X-Men 1 just came in for grading and was previously slabbed at 9.4, they wouldn't just give it a 9.4 again and save themselves the aggravation of having threads started about how their grading is inconsistent?

 

 

[comicwiz]

I'm really sorry this happened to you. I'm a bit disappointed in CGC, not because the books came back restored, but because the books came back restored AFTER CGC already "verified" that the books weren't restored in the first place. You can analyze, and over analyze CGC's grading capabilities all day, but the fact is that they are proven flip floppers when it comes to their restoration check. Even If this only happens 1% of the time, It still happens, and CGC should take responsibility for not catching the restoration the first time around. I would call CGC and try to work something out with them. Any company with good business ethics should listen to their customers and strive for their satisfaction, especially If the customer is right.

 

Unless the books are cracked in CGC's possession, how do they know they weren't doctored after cracking?

 

Gary, with all due respect, you described a situation where a Hulk 181 flagged for trimming was "reviewed" a second time after you told Steve it was an original owner book bought off the rack, and the book later received a blue label. We don't know what influenced Steve's decision making, but the appearance of bias in the situation can't be overlooked entirely. It's also worth mentioning that yours isn't the first situation where I've heard CGC reconsidering trimming on books based on someone's word it was an off the rack purchase.

 

Using this "taking your word for it" example and comparing it to the OP's current situation, it's disappointing these types of situations are being turned into "how do we know" whether the book was doctored after cracking out especially when CGC has demonstrated a capacity to resolve situations without the need for a thorough forensic examination of where the person grew up, what car they drive, their contribution/participation in our hobby, or what the person had for breakfast for the past month.

 

Even in my own situation, my outcome was achieved absent of prejudice or bias. While I didn't agree with the final decision, especially since I had for years answered calls and provided a second opinion at "no charge" on underground comix under CGC's review to the very person who made the final decision on the outcome, I resigned to understanding CGC's need in maintaining impartiality trumped my request for fairness and my need to understand what happened to my book from the time it left my hands to the time it was returned to me with marks on it revealing it had been used as someone's food tray.

 

To now read the OP's situation being twisted in a way that questions his intent, suggesting he is a liar or someone that we shouldn't completely trust, probably serves as a good primer for the way he might expect to be treated by CGC, but is a real low point for a community that should avoid hijacking the threads awareness element, which IMO ought to be more about exposing the inconsistencies in CGC policy and practice (past to present), and the kinds of questions it raises about the inherent risks associated to having books certified.

[Davenport]

if you're going to spend thousands of dollars on a book you should either educate yourself on the hobby before spending money

 

You fanboys must have a handbook you pull this stupidity from, right?

Harsh.

 

Scanning the thread, this one keeps jumping out in various forms:

I'm just going to keep stating this until people get it:

 

GRADING IS SUBJECTIVE. RESTORATION ISN'T.

Everytime I see it I think the same thing... BS. Restoration may be even more subjective than grade.

 

Whether bits of this or that gets blue or purple is subjective. CGC reserves that choice.

The dividing line between additive and non-additive was a company decision. CGC declared it.

And unless trimming is horribly obvious, PGX sugar-shakes style edges, declaring a factory trimmed edge as retrimmed is going to come down to a judgement call. CGC says they got better at making those after the Ewert fiasco. No warranty, no guarantee.

 

So if restoration isn't subjective, labeling it damn sure is. Probably more legalese, word play, arbitrary choice and caveats covering it than anything.

 

 

[romanheart]

Anytime CGC would like to chime in on this thread, their opinion would be most welcome.

[tjanse]

Well this thread has made it to bleeding cool

 

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/02/16/whats-in-a-cgc-slabbed-book-anyway/

[erazer]

Well this thread has made it to bleeding cool

 

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/02/16/whats-in-a-cgc-slabbed-book-anyway/

 

The comments section...

[trmoore54]

There have been various opinions expressed as relates to the situation...

 

"Don't rely on CGC...grade the book yourself..."

 

"CGC may have gotten it right or wrong in the first place (grade/no restoration) and/or may have gotten it right or wrong in the recent grading (grade/restoration)..."

 

So if the OP cracks the books open (and let's say for purposes of the discussion gets the notes) and determines no CT on the one book in question and no trim on the other book in question...

 

Is it categorically unacceptable and unethical for the OP to relist the books for sale as unrestored and "comes with the CGC blue label..."?

 

[easyt63]

if you're going to spend thousands of dollars on a book you should either educate yourself on the hobby before spending money

 

You fanboys must have a handbook you pull this stupidity from, right?

Harsh.

 

Scanning the thread, this one keeps jumping out in various forms:

I'm just going to keep stating this until people get it:

 

GRADING IS SUBJECTIVE. RESTORATION ISN'T.

Everytime I see it I think the same thing... BS. Restoration may be even more subjective than grade.

 

Whether bits of this or that gets blue or purple is subjective. CGC reserves that choice.

The dividing line between additive and non-additive was a company decision. CGC declared it.

And unless trimming is horribly obvious, PGX sugar-shakes style edges, declaring a factory trimmed edge as retrimmed is going to come down to a judgement call. CGC says they got better at making those after the Ewert fiasco. No warranty, no guarantee.

 

So if restoration isn't subjective, labeling it damn sure is. Probably more legalese, word play, arbitrary choice and caveats covering it than anything.

 

 

I appreciate your opinion. Can you give a couple examples of how restoration is subjective? Because how I see it, if anything is added or removed from the original comic, that is restoration. At least to me.

 

Pressing doesn't add or remove anything. But trimming, glueing, sealing, retouching, adding pieces, all of that does alter the original state.

 

I guess I am asking, can you provide a bit more clarity in how CGC makes determining and labeling restoration more subjective than grading? I just find that logic from your comment hard to follow.

[USArmyParatrooper]

So CGC got better at resto (trimming) detection ... how is that bad ?

 

How would you feel if one of your hi grade books you paid top dollar for turned out to have resto on it??

 

If it turned out to have resto then it turned out to have resto.I'd take the hit and accept it. Whining over it wouldn't turn the purple back into blue.

 

That's a pretty dickish reply. Yes we should all accept that grading subjective and that mistakes happen. Sometimes you get a condition or PQ downgrade, and sometimes you get a mislabel.

 

But to have not one, but two Universal labels come back as restored is just unacceptable. Having two blue-label comics come back restored in one submission is a big, fat red flag.

 

On the contrary, I think your suggestion to just shut up about it is exactly the wrong thing, and him bringing it to light is the right thing.

 

And I am by far NOT a CGC basher, but that doesn't mean I think they're exempt from accountability.

[easyt63]

(Do you) really think that receiving is going to not divulge the fact that the book has already been graded?

 

If we are to put our trust in the company, then yes, yes I do believe that receiving doesn't tell the graders it has already been graded. If one can't believe that, then the entire company is useless in that person's eyes. Why trust the grade at all? Why not believe they swap out books for later prints? Why not just "lose" books and sell them raw to line their pockets?

 

 

 

-slym

 

You just took a simple hypothetical scenario of inter-organization communication to perhaps criminal fraud activity. Your point is moot.

 

 

Clearly you think that this communication happens and the graders aren't grading blindly. So tell me, what would the advantage to this be for CGC?

 

Please tell me you were just practicing your typing skills and you didn't seriously ask that question.

 

In case you did ask that question because you couldn't figure it out yourself, get on the couch and share some popcorn with Slym, because here comes the answer...

 

To avoid situations like this.

 

 

Oh boy, have you read this thread or are you just coming in hot and firing away without any knowledge of WTF is going on. How would this situation be avoided by that communication, pray tell? The books were submitted raw. So what were the receiving folks supposed to have told the graders that would somehow be advantageous and avoid this situation? How would this submission have been any different than any of the thousands of other submissions they get every year?

 

In case you meant that normally happens (but didn't in this case because the books were already de-slabbed), let me counter that argument as well. IF that were happening, do you think we'd get all of the examples on this board of books that were re-subbed coming back different grades? There have been numerous examples of books re-subbed still slabbed coming back different grades. Don't you think that IF the graders had knowledge from the receiving folks that the PC copy of X-Men 1 just came in for grading and was previously slabbed at 9.4, they wouldn't just give it a 9.4 again and save themselves the aggravation of having threads started about how their grading is inconsistent?

 

 

You make a great point about books being resubbed in holder coming back a different grade.

 

The question was asked what good can come from Receiving communicating with the graders. I said to avoid situations like this. At least increase the chances a situation like this is avoided.

 

I'm not sure about what I'm about to say. Think of it as me typing out loud.

 

If CGC graders and receivers communicated, and strict notes were kept on defects, marks or any distinguishable flaw a book had, and CGC wouldn't regrade slabbed resubs, wouldn't that in a sense make CGC look like they stand behind their original grade?

 

What I mean by that is CGC would in essence be making a statement that they don't second guess their own work.

 

Now if there was a time period grading or resto detection was suspect, they could recall those books for regrading.

 

I just feel like when CGC regrades an already graded book, it undermines their work. Of course it would be very difficult to put a system in place to spot a cracked and resubbed book, but in your argument's case, there are lots of reasons CGC would benefit from receiving talking to grading.

 

[USArmyParatrooper]

Everytime I see it I think the same thing... BS. Restoration may be even more subjective than grade.

 

Whether bits of this or that gets blue or purple is subjective. CGC reserves that choice.

The dividing line between additive and non-additive was a company decision. CGC declared it.

And unless trimming is horribly obvious, PGX sugar-shakes style edges, declaring a factory trimmed edge as retrimmed is going to come down to a judgement call. CGC says they got better at making those after the Ewert fiasco. No warranty, no guarantee.

 

So if restoration isn't subjective, labeling it damn sure is. Probably more legalese, word play, arbitrary choice and caveats covering it than anything.

 

 

According to CGC's policy:

 

Color touch = restoration

Trimming = restoration

 

This includes ANY amount of either. There's zero ambiguity there and no room for subjectivity. It would be different if they said something like "very minor trimming or color touch is not restoration." But they don't. Any amount of either is considered restoration.

[easyt63]

Everytime I see it I think the same thing... BS. Restoration may be even more subjective than grade.

 

Whether bits of this or that gets blue or purple is subjective. CGC reserves that choice.

The dividing line between additive and non-additive was a company decision. CGC declared it.

And unless trimming is horribly obvious, PGX sugar-shakes style edges, declaring a factory trimmed edge as retrimmed is going to come down to a judgement call. CGC says they got better at making those after the Ewert fiasco. No warranty, no guarantee.

 

So if restoration isn't subjective, labeling it damn sure is. Probably more legalese, word play, arbitrary choice and caveats covering it than anything.

 

 

According to CGC's policy:

 

Color touch = restoration

 

Trimming = restoration

 

This includes ANY amount of either. There's zero ambiguity there and no room for subjectivity. It would be different if they said something like "very minor trimming or color touch is not restoration." But they don't. Any amount of either is considered restoration.

 

My thoughts exactly.

[Bronty]

Everytime I see it I think the same thing... BS. Restoration may be even more subjective than grade.

 

Whether bits of this or that gets blue or purple is subjective. CGC reserves that choice.

The dividing line between additive and non-additive was a company decision. CGC declared it.

And unless trimming is horribly obvious, PGX sugar-shakes style edges, declaring a factory trimmed edge as retrimmed is going to come down to a judgement call. CGC says they got better at making those after the Ewert fiasco. No warranty, no guarantee.

 

So if restoration isn't subjective, labeling it damn sure is. Probably more legalese, word play, arbitrary choice and caveats covering it than anything.

 

 

According to CGC's policy:

 

Color touch = restoration

Trimming = restoration

 

This includes ANY amount of either. There's zero ambiguity there and no room for subjectivity. It would be different if they said something like "very minor trimming or color touch is not restoration." But they don't. Any amount of either is considered restoration.

 

that's not correct. There's many a color touched and or glued book in a blue label. Why? Arbitrary decision on their part so that the owners of mile highs wouldn't cry blue bloody murder.

 

Davenport is 100% spot on.

[Bronty]

Also , you guys taking cgc's policies on what is and isn't resto as apparent gospel makes me question if you collected pre-cgc? It's not a good or bad thing to have collected a long or short time, but it does make for different PoVs.

[USArmyParatrooper]

Everytime I see it I think the same thing... BS. Restoration may be even more subjective than grade.

 

Whether bits of this or that gets blue or purple is subjective. CGC reserves that choice.

The dividing line between additive and non-additive was a company decision. CGC declared it.

And unless trimming is horribly obvious, PGX sugar-shakes style edges, declaring a factory trimmed edge as retrimmed is going to come down to a judgement call. CGC says they got better at making those after the Ewert fiasco. No warranty, no guarantee.

 

So if restoration isn't subjective, labeling it damn sure is. Probably more legalese, word play, arbitrary choice and caveats covering it than anything.

 

 

According to CGC's policy:

 

Color touch = restoration

Trimming = restoration

 

This includes ANY amount of either. There's zero ambiguity there and no room for subjectivity. It would be different if they said something like "very minor trimming or color touch is not restoration." But they don't. Any amount of either is considered restoration.

 

that's not correct. There's many a color touched and or glued book in a blue label. Why? Arbitrary decision on their part so that the owners of mile highs wouldn't cry blue bloody murder.

 

Davenport is 100% spot on.

 

Are you talking about color touch and glue that they missed, or do they acknowledge that it's there? Did they acknowledge it and downgrade the books accordingly? Because that still wouldn't change anything. You can write on the cover and request a blue label, but it will be downgraded.

 

 

[Spider-Dan]

 

Update - I just talked to CGC, and they told me they would be glad to look them over again, but I would have to pay another submission fee

 

[USArmyParatrooper]

Also , you guys taking cgc's policies on what is and isn't resto as apparent gospel makes me question if you collected pre-cgc? It's not a good or bad thing to have collected a long or short time, but it does make for different PoVs.

 

I did collect pre-CGC and I restarted post CGC. I fail to see how either would change anyone's perspective.

 

I don't take CGC's policy on what is and isn't restoration as gospel, but CGC certainly should.

[USArmyParatrooper]

 

Update - I just talked to CGC, and they told me they would be glad to look them over again, but I would have to pay another submission fee

 

 

I would first crack them out and look for the restoration they claimed was there. I believe for color touch there's a black-light trick.