How rare are Silver Age DC's in 9.4 or better?

[tth2]

Books dated November 1961:

FF #1

JLA #7 (the 10th JLA story counting B&B)

Flash #124 (the 24th Barry Allen Flash issue counting Showcase)

 

Prior to November 1961, the first 3-issue B&B tryout of Hawkman was already completed, The Atom had been revived in Showcase, and 8 issues of GL had been published (plus 3 Showcase issues featuring GL).

 

Books dated May 1962

Incredible Hulk #1

FF #4

Mystery in Space #75

Flash #128

JLA #11

 

Books dated August 1962

AF #15

JIM #83

Flash #130

JLA #13

 

Books dated March 1963

ASM #1

FF #12

ToS #39

Flash #135

JLA #18

GL #19

 

Very cool way to look at things, and really puts things into perspective.

[Dmac538]

Since DC was not collected as much as Marvel, they will be hard to find. I collected DC for investments as i knew there are some hard core DC collectors that have come of age. One other thing i noticed is the paper quality of DC comics was much thinner than Marvels, DC also used a lot of light colors yellows, pinks, light blue as well. These colors tend to fade quicker then the darker Marvel covers, so it seems it may the reason you find more HG Marvels.

[blowout]

The hobby took off in an organized sense AFTER most of the important Silver Age DCs had already hit the shelves (in fact, it was BECAUSE of DCs like The Legion of Superheroes [and, of course, the ECs] that fandom got its start). Just in time for the Silver Age Marvels to be snapped up and collected in decent shape by the growing COLLECTOR base.

People do realize that the really important period for SA DC was OVER before FF#1 hit the shelves, right?

In terms of the way that they were handled by readers, the key SA DC books have more in common with GA or Pre-Code books than they do with SA Marvels.

 

This is the theory that makes the most sense to me, and certainly seems the most logical. Marvel collectors always talk about pre-65 books being the toughest to find in grade, and usually will go further by saying that pre-63 are even harder (early Spider-Man are much more common that early FF). So since most of the SA keys pre-date 1963, it stands to reason that finding them in the same quantities as the Marvel keys is very unlikely.

[tth2]

So since most of the SA keys pre-date 1963, it stands to reason that finding them in the same quantities as the Marvel keys is very unlikely.

 

But DCs are still harder to find. There is 1 9.6 copy and 3 9.4 copies of Fantastic Four #1, the earliest SA Marvel, and 3 9.4 copies of FF #2. The only major DC key from this period that has similar quantities is B&B #34, of which there are 4 copies in 9.4. The only other major DC keys with more than 1 copy in 9.4 thus far are Adventure #247 (1 9.6, 1 9.4), JLA #1 (2 9.4s, although if you listen to some recent innuendo and gossip, one of them is suspect) and Showcase #34 (2 9.4s).

[Murph]

Didn't some of those books you quoted (the FF's) as on the census originate from pedigrees? And since the DC counter-parts of many pedigrees have yet to be graded (or so I've read), wouldn't it stand to reason that's why the numbers are lower? Obviously I don't follow DC books at all, just throwing that out there.

[tth2]

Good point, and very well may be true. The 9.6 FF #1 is not a pedigree, I don't know if any of the 9.4 copies are (the WM copy "only" graded out as a 9.2, I seem to recall). Doug's 9.4 FF #2s is a WM, I don't know about the others, but I think Brulato's copy is not a pedigree. And of course the Curator FFs have yet to emerge.

 

Of the DCs I listed, the 9.4 Adventure #247 is a Bethlehem, one of the 9.4 B&B #34s is a Western Penn, as is one of the 9.4 Showcase #34s. So of the really nice slabbed DC mega-keys so far, there is a decent representation of pedigrees. Are there a bunch of WM, PC, Bethlehem and Western Penn mega-key DCs still out there waiting to be slabbed? Could be. Linmoth has said that the Western Penn Showcase run is complete, including 2 copies of #4, but I've never seen any of the issues prior to #34 and don't know what kind of grades they're in.

[greggy]

Linmoth previously posted that there was no Showcase 4 in the Western Penn pedigree so

[linmoth]

Hi: I think that if you reread the post you will see that it says "there was not 1 Showcase 4 in the collection." I don't think that means none.

 

In reference to Tim's post, I don't believe that I ever said the Showcase run "is" intact. I may have said that it was intact, meaning when the collection was found.

A few years ago a large percentage of the run was offered for sale but the condition of the books had slipped somewhat from improper storage and the asking price was pretty aggressive.

 

I also believe that I told Tim that there were multiple copies of the Showcase 4.

 

I am working on putting together the facts as I know them and that Includes going thru CBG ads, letters, Email etc. It takes alot of time and although some consider it a priority I do not. I work on it when my schedule permits and I am motivated to do the research.

 

Tom

[tth2]

In reference to Tim's post, I don't believe that I ever said the Showcase run "is" intact. I may have said that it was intact, meaning when the collection was found.

A few years ago a large percentage of the run was offered for sale but the condition of the books had slipped somewhat from improper storage and the asking price was pretty aggressive.

 

Hi Tom, yes, what I meant was that originally there was a complete Showcase run in the collection. We know it's not intact anymore.now. Sorry to hear that some of the run might not grade out so high now, does that mean we can at least cross off the possibility of the Western Penn Showcase 4, 8, 13, 14, 22, 23 and 24 appearing someday and blowing out the census?

 

I don't suppose you'd be able to say who was the seller of those books? PM me if you'd prefer not to disclose publicly. And do you know whether they eventually sold?

[linmoth]

Hi Tim: I sold the Western Penn Showcase 7 along with some others in early Sotheby auctions. I think one or more of the Western Penn Showcase 4s have surfaced. Just my opinion.

 

The 22,23,24 were sold to a collector who I am told is not collecting any longer. They may be lying in a box somewhere or may be the highest graded CGC books, I don't know. They sold for around $1100 for the trio.

 

Out of the lot that was offered the 14 was still very nice but the all or none offer just not acceptable.

 

 

Tom

[Aman619]

Interesting. If monetary inducement and heat are the key to unlocking these hidden hoards, why wasn't there a flood of Showcase 4s back in the late 80s early 90s when it was the hottest SA book on the planet? Even with heat applied, books like FF#1 and AF#15 probably showed up something like 3:1 or 4:1 at shows and in catalogs even though Showcase #4 was more valuable and extremely desirable.

 

actually, I remember that period in exactly the opposite way! When Showcase 4 went from nonexistent to hottest SA book on the planet, I suddenly saw more and more copies showing up on dealers wall displays at each successive convention. It went from one or 2 ratty copies at an entire show - - --to eventually one copy at every booth and a few dealers with a choice of 2 or 3 copies!! (like Metro's 7 Batman#1s)

 

I think that experience chilled all interest in the book for the decade since then!

 

and 95% of the copies are safely sitting in mylars in collections.

and as for the original question here, I agree with the post stating that DC SA is pre '63 and not comparable to Marvel SA as all the major DC keys appeared 3 to 5 years earlier than FF#1 and AF#15 and appeared in the darkest night of comics 50s nadir of the industry.

[rob_react]

I don't deny that Showcase #4 appeared more frequently during that period when compared to itself. I'll grant that. I still never saw (and have never seen) it appear with anything approaching the frequency of comparable Marvel Keys.

[Aman619]

not that frequently, I agree. It was only a super tough book that high prices induced out of the woodwork into the marketplace.

[tth2]

When Showcase 4 went from nonexistent to hottest SA book on the planet, I suddenly saw more and more copies showing up on dealers wall displays at each successive convention. It went from one or 2 ratty copies at an entire show - - --to eventually one copy at every booth and a few dealers with a choice of 2 or 3 copies!!

 

There is no question that copies exist in decent quantities for almost every DC SA title, with the exception of some oddball titles (as confirmed by Ian). But most were not in particularly high grade, at least not unrestored. Anyways, even with the numerous Showcase 4s and other DC keys that started showing up on dealers' displays, it still didn't compare to the number of Marvel keys that were up on the same displays.

[tth2]

I have to admit I'm surprised that the current high prices haven't driven more slabbed copies out of the woodwork yet. I believe the 9.4 and 9.2 copies that are in the census have been there since early on in CGC's existence.

[Aman619]

must still be because the DC owners (us?) just arent 1) ready to sell, and 2) just not curious enough to pay the slab fees to "find out" the CGC grades we have. I'll admit sometimes I get real curious just how well mine stack up....but..

[ComicBookGuy]

The current high prices have driven MINE out of my closet and to cgc and now onto ebay. All the ones I'm selling now are new to the census and have never been slabbed. They range from 8.5-9.6.

I think a lot of collectors who are sitting on supervaluable books will slab the books in their collections they know will grade out high, sell them for top dollar, rebuy some very fines with nice eye appeal, and use the money for other things.

I can't emphasize enough that some cgc 8.5's are indistinguishable from some 9.6's. I have seen 9.6's that look like 7.5's, and I have seen 8.5's that I can't find ANYTHING wrong with even with 3X jeweler's glasses.

Given that, collectors who are guided by "what they like" rather than what cgc says will be willing to sell off selected books and keep their runs intact. There are a LOT of big DC collections out there, unslabbed, and DC collectors hate to sell, cause replacing them will be tough and very time-consuming. Replacing Marvels is not.

[tth2]

Any 9.4 or 9.6 books besides the 80 page Batman that the boards were discussing?

[FlComicFan]

One other thing to consider is that DC's from the mid 60's and up were extremely cheap by Overstreet guide even in the mid 1980's If you have a guide from 1984-1986 or so compare most 12 cent-15 cent DC's to Marvels from the same time frame If you discount issues with Adams art which were broken out and expensive for the time, many runs of DC's were valued at below $1 a book in NM going back to even 12 cent-15 cent covers era. You could buy up a run like Jimmy Olson or Lois Lane and go back to 10 cent cover issues before you were spending more than a buck or two in NM. I started really digging for high grade silver around 1989 when the prices started popping somewhat and I would see 20 high grade Marvels for every 1 DC. I'm betting that most of those back issues got quarter box treatment at best till the guide reflected they deserved a backboard and bag and by then even warehouse find/unsold stock were reduced to mid grades at best. Bronze age DC I think is tougher too if you discount the books that were hoarded (Swamp Thing 1, Sandman 1 etc) However more of those should show up when their guide values make it more sensible to slab them as far as resale goes. Early Happy New years to all, Chet

[Mushroom]

Many many more are being pressed each day...........