Cole Schave collection: face jobs?

[ciorac]

This hobby is turning into a joke. I'm happy I sold half of my keepers. I'm just going to CPR. Take the free money until the hobby is destroyed.

 

This hobby is in the toilet. Seriously. I can't believe another obvious example of spine realignment has been awarded a 9.2 grade. I have to believe it slipped by CGC. Their grading is too soft lately. They need to slow down and tighten up. Obviously this thread has not helped us, things seem worse than ever.

 

Why is the hobby in the toilet? (and yes, I am trying to be provocative here)

 

Why should you, or anyone, give a flying frack if someone is gaming the "system"? I mean really. In the grand scheme of things does it change your quality of life, or hobby enjoyment if some schlep is making a load of coin by slipping through RSR books? Schave books? Or micro trimmed books?

 

If so, how? In a material sense is it truly affecting you? And by "you", I mean the rank and file comic collector?

 

If you, and most do, plod along in relative ignorance of these practices and simply go about the business of filling holes in your want list and feeding your family, how are you negatively impacted?

 

If you look at a book and decide the grade and price are fine by you, then what do you really, and honestly, care about how the book arrived at that grade?

 

I get the ethics stuff, etc.

 

I'm just kind of struggling with where all this wailing and gnashing of the teeth really brings us.

 

I have lots of comics in all sorts of grades in my collection. Some came right from the source or off the stands. Most, I have no real idea of how they ended up the way they are now. It doesn't diminish the joy of having them in my collection. Nor should anything diminish that.

[faster friends]

It don't bother me. I read em.

[Comicopolis]

It don't bother me. I read em.

 

Sacrilege.

[joeypost]

This hobby is turning into a joke. I'm happy I sold half of my keepers. I'm just going to CPR. Take the free money until the hobby is destroyed.

 

This hobby is in the toilet. Seriously. I can't believe another obvious example of spine realignment has been awarded a 9.2 grade. I have to believe it slipped by CGC. Their grading is too soft lately. They need to slow down and tighten up. Obviously this thread has not helped us, things seem worse than ever.

 

Why is the hobby in the toilet? (and yes, I am trying to be provocative here)

 

Why should you, or anyone, give a flying frack if someone is gaming the "system"? I mean really. In the grand scheme of things does it change your quality of life, or hobby enjoyment if some schlep is making a load of coin by slipping through RSR books? Schave books? Or micro trimmed books?

 

If so, how? In a material sense is it truly affecting you? And by "you", I mean the rank and file comic collector?

 

If you, and most do, plod along in relative ignorance of these practices and simply go about the business of filling holes in your want list and feeding your family, how are you negatively impacted?

 

If you look at a book and decide the grade and price are fine by you, then what do you really, and honestly, care about how the book arrived at that grade?

 

I get the ethics stuff, etc.

 

I'm just kind of struggling with where all this wailing and gnashing of the teeth really brings us.

 

I have lots of comics in all sorts of grades in my collection. Some came right from the source or off the stands. Most, I have no real idea of how they ended up the way they are now. It doesn't diminish the joy of having them in my collection. Nor should anything diminish that.

 

Some people want to watch the world burn.

 

Some try to put out the fire.

 

Others bring marshmallows.

[Comicopolis]

Some eat marshmallows.

[Mark Zaid]

I know Mark Zaid posted saying he was in a dialogue with CGC and would post here agaqin, but I have not seen him come back here, did I miss a post?

 

Mark? what happened to the dialogue? I hope no one tar and feathered you or anything.

 

Nah, they just figured if they waited it out, the problems would just magically disappear, and the boards would lose interest. It's hard to sustain negative emotions over a long period of time, which has happened here.

 

A few posts of lip service to slightly quell the mob seems to have sufficed in this instance.

 

With all due respect, I don't give lip service to anything or anyone. Nor do I let anything fade away without being addressed as promised.

 

My apologies to everyone for the delay but that is on me, not CGC. I have been very occupied in dealing with Benghazi issues. I trust the murder of a US Ambassador is understandably a legitimate distraction.

 

I will be back on this issue as soon as I can.

 

With all due respect Mark, perhaps you have too much on your plate.

 

Regards,

Drew

 

Tell me something I don't know Drew.

[Bomber-Bob]

This hobby is turning into a joke. I'm happy I sold half of my keepers. I'm just going to CPR. Take the free money until the hobby is destroyed.

 

This hobby is in the toilet. Seriously. I can't believe another obvious example of spine realignment has been awarded a 9.2 grade. I have to believe it slipped by CGC. Their grading is too soft lately. They need to slow down and tighten up. Obviously this thread has not helped us, things seem worse than ever.

 

Why is the hobby in the toilet? (and yes, I am trying to be provocative here)

 

Why should you, or anyone, give a flying frack if someone is gaming the "system"? I mean really. In the grand scheme of things does it change your quality of life, or hobby enjoyment if some schlep is making a load of coin by slipping through RSR books? Schave books? Or micro trimmed books?

 

If so, how? In a material sense is it truly affecting you? And by "you", I mean the rank and file comic collector?

 

If you, and most do, plod along in relative ignorance of these practices and simply go about the business of filling holes in your want list and feeding your family, how are you negatively impacted?

 

If you look at a book and decide the grade and price are fine by you, then what do you really, and honestly, care about how the book arrived at that grade?

 

I get the ethics stuff, etc.

 

.

 

I am disappointed you feel this way. I do care how a book arrived at it's grade. Sorry.

[Silver Surfer]

The problem concerning integrity unfortunately pre-dates Schave etc. It's a long, long history in our hobby which -- for some people -- is only becoming worse. It certainly seems that way in terms of scale. I wonder if it's really that more people want to make attempts at the manipulation or simply that it's more accessible for everyone to become part of the party.

 

I think I am leaning towards the more accessible side. It seems there are a lot more people doing work on books today than there were say 10 years ago. Also with how much money there is to improve a books appearance, there are even more people doing it themselves.

 

Totally agree.

 

And it is the CGC business model of ignoring non-additive procedures that opened the Pandora's Box of renewed manipulation upon the hobby.

 

The quest for synthetic grades fuels the alteration game. And artifacts supporting the assertion are traceable thanks to the digital age.

 

The Wilson-ized example below is but another that displays the characteristics discussed herein and elsewhere.

 

Acquired in a state of age produced by years of ownership, it underwent reconstructive treatment which created an apparent high-grade appearance.

 

Initially sold as a raw FN/VF copy via Heritage, it resurfaced as a CGC 9.2 in the recent Beverly Hills auction. However, that was not before pgcmint attempted to liquidate same via eBay in September of this year.

 

 

 

 

All-American Comics #65 (DC, 1945) Condition: FN/VF

 

All-American Comics #65 (DC, 1945) CGC NM- 9.2 Off-white pages

 

 

I would love to know what kind of work was done on this book especially the top RHC? Will we ever know is the real question.

[mysterio]

This hobby is turning into a joke. I'm happy I sold half of my keepers. I'm just going to CPR. Take the free money until the hobby is destroyed.

 

This hobby is in the toilet. Seriously. I can't believe another obvious example of spine realignment has been awarded a 9.2 grade. I have to believe it slipped by CGC. Their grading is too soft lately. They need to slow down and tighten up. Obviously this thread has not helped us, things seem worse than ever.

 

Why is the hobby in the toilet? (and yes, I am trying to be provocative here)

 

Why should you, or anyone, give a flying frack if someone is gaming the "system"? I mean really. In the grand scheme of things does it change your quality of life, or hobby enjoyment if some schlep is making a load of coin by slipping through RSR books? Schave books? Or micro trimmed books?

 

If so, how? In a material sense is it truly affecting you? And by "you", I mean the rank and file comic collector?

 

If you, and most do, plod along in relative ignorance of these practices and simply go about the business of filling holes in your want list and feeding your family, how are you negatively impacted?

 

If you look at a book and decide the grade and price are fine by you, then what do you really, and honestly, care about how the book arrived at that grade?

 

I get the ethics stuff, etc.

 

I'm just kind of struggling with where all this wailing and gnashing of the teeth really brings us.

 

I have lots of comics in all sorts of grades in my collection. Some came right from the source or off the stands. Most, I have no real idea of how they ended up the way they are now. It doesn't diminish the joy of having them in my collection. Nor should anything diminish that.

 

Would you care if, say, an All-American #65 you were interested in was a 7.5 that was intentionally damaged with a new book-length crease so it could be put in a 9.2 holder? Would you look at that book the same way as another 9.2? I guess I'm just not understanding how someone who enjoys comics and admires grades could be so seemingly unconcerned about an incentive to intentionally harm books for profit.

 

In a material sense, as well as enjoyment, I would like to think that the grade and color represented by the label of a CGC graded book is grounded in reality. Giving a pass (or worse yet, a reward) to micro-trims or manipulated spines affects my bottom line in a real monetary sense that could be measured, and that affects my ability to trust the integrity of the system. Once that trust is gone it is hard to get enthusiastic about engaging in the hobby.

[blazingbob]

Mark,

If you have something else more important then why don't you ask the job be given to someone else?

 

 

[DrWatson]

Mark,

If you have something else more important then why don't you ask the job be given to someone else?

 

I wonder if the CGC pays cash, grading coupons, or bragging rights for his services?

 

[joeypost]

Mark,

If you have something else more important then why don't you ask the job be given to someone else?

 

 

A very valid point.

 

There seem to be a lot of unresolved issues that are just floating out there.

 

Two that come to mind are the CS books and the puddling happening to the inner well.

[Mark Zaid]

Mark,

If you have something else more important then why don't you ask the job be given to someone else?

 

 

Feel free for you or anyone else to suggest that to CGC/CCG if you wish.

 

I appreciate your support Bob. (thumbs u

[DiceX]

Mark,

If you have something else more important then why don't you ask the job be given to someone else?

 

 

A very valid point.

 

There seem to be a lot of unresolved issues that are just floating out there.

 

Two that come to mind are the CS books and the puddling happening to the inner well.

 

Every time I hear that word I think it's in reference to a small .

 

 

[Randall Dowling]

Mark,

If you have something else more important then why don't you ask the job be given to someone else?

 

 

Feel free for you or anyone else to suggest that to CGC/CCG if you wish.

 

I appreciate your support Bob. (thumbs u

Mark,

 

I think there is just a lot of frustration out there about what is being done to books. I, for one, wouldn't want anyone else but someone of your experience and reputation to be looking at this. I think I have a good idea about how much you care about the conservation of comics and so would ask that you please continue your advocacy for ethical practices at CGC.

 

I think most of us know that change doesn't happen overnight. We just don't want to get the feeling that those with less than honorable intentions are being rewarded while the concerns of other conservators and collectors are disregarded.

 

Keep up the good work and let us know when you find out more. Until then, yes, Benghazi is kind of a serious deal, totally get that. (thumbs u

[Davenport]

Why is the hobby in the toilet? (and yes, I am trying to be provocative here)

 

Why should you, or anyone, give a flying frack if someone is gaming the "system"? I mean really. In the grand scheme of things does it change your quality of life, or hobby enjoyment if some schlep is making a load of coin by slipping through RSR books? Schave books? Or micro trimmed books?

 

If so, how? In a material sense is it truly affecting you? And by "you", I mean the rank and file comic collector?

 

If you, and most do, plod along in relative ignorance of these practices and simply go about the business of filling holes in your want list and feeding your family, how are you negatively impacted?

 

If you look at a book and decide the grade and price are fine by you, then what do you really, and honestly, care about how the book arrived at that grade?

 

I get the ethics stuff, etc.

 

I'm just kind of struggling with where all this wailing and gnashing of the teeth really brings us.

 

I have lots of comics in all sorts of grades in my collection. Some came right from the source or off the stands. Most, I have no real idea of how they ended up the way they are now. It doesn't diminish the joy of having them in my collection. Nor should anything diminish that.

Trust in a (gamed) system allows for undisclosed advantage, as long the illusion of trustworthiness holds.

 

And it's fairly universal that people don't take kindly their trust being shattered, or even diminished. Feels like a crime, even if there's no law against it.

.

 

[Bomber-Bob]

Mark,

If you have something else more important then why don't you ask the job be given to someone else?

 

 

Feel free for you or anyone else to suggest that to CGC/CCG if you wish.

 

I appreciate your support Bob. (thumbs u

 

Mark, I think you are taking Bob's remarks in the wrong way. Everyone here holds you in the highest regard. However, it's no different than when I tell my wife I'm busy and have no time for her, it doesn't matter. It's not fair to those concerned. Perhaps you can make a couple phone calls. Perhaps you can ask Litch to say something, anything here. Any hint of progress would be appreciated.

[MrBedrock]

I know Mark Zaid posted saying he was in a dialogue with CGC and would post here agaqin, but I have not seen him come back here, did I miss a post?

 

Mark? what happened to the dialogue? I hope no one tar and feathered you or anything.

 

Nah, they just figured if they waited it out, the problems would just magically disappear, and the boards would lose interest. It's hard to sustain negative emotions over a long period of time, which has happened here.

 

A few posts of lip service to slightly quell the mob seems to have sufficed in this instance.

 

With all due respect, I don't give lip service to anything or anyone. Nor do I let anything fade away without being addressed as promised.

 

My apologies to everyone for the delay but that is on me, not CGC. I have been very occupied in dealing with Benghazi issues. I trust the murder of a US Ambassador is understandably a legitimate distraction.

 

I will be back on this issue as soon as I can.

 

With all due respect Mark, perhaps you have too much on your plate.

 

Regards,

Drew

 

Tell me something I don't know Drew.

One of the first things they teach you at Customer Service School is to never, ever tell the disgruntled, "Sorry about that, but I am just too busy to help you."

[MrBedrock]

Trust in a (gamed) system allows for undisclosed advantage, as long the illusion of trustworthiness holds.

 

deep

[MrBedrock]

The Wilson-ized example below is but another that displays the characteristics discussed herein and elsewhere.

 

Acquired in a state of age produced by years of ownership, it underwent reconstructive treatment which created an apparent high-grade appearance.

 

Initially sold as a raw FN/VF copy via Heritage, it resurfaced as a CGC 9.2 in the recent Beverly Hills auction. However, that was not before pgcmint attempted to liquidate same via eBay in September of this year.

 

 

 

 

All-American Comics #65 (DC, 1945) Condition: FN/VF

 

All-American Comics #65 (DC, 1945) CGC NM- 9.2 Off-white pages

 

Is it wrong of me to think the book actually looks better in the after photos? The spine roll was simply corrected. It appears that the spine, cover edges and pages line up in a manner more approximating what the publishers were actually striving for. It looks to me like a darn pretty book.