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Cerebus 1 a more valuable key than Hulk 181? Really Overstreet? Poll on Page 87
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1,571 posts in this topic

It's not a knock on Cerebus 1. It's more about the way Overstreet does things. The top 10 BA list provides a "one dimensional" view of a book's value that can easily be misinterpreted. The Cerebus 1, Hulk 181 scenario is an example I've used to demonstrate the problem that can arise with Bob's list if it's taken at face value.

 

In what way is this view "one dimensional"? How and in what way can this information be misinterpreted?

 

Simple - Someone reads the list and sees that Cerebus 1 is more valuable than Hulk 181, therefore leading that person to conclude it must be a more valuable book, period.

 

It IS a more valuable book, by the parameters given by Overstreet in his article. Do you dispute this?

 

What is it about the Cerebus #1, Hulk #181 scenario that demonstrates the problem you describe?

 

Read my earlier post about comparing a non-mainstream book to one that is.

 

I'm not quite sure I understand. Why is this comparison a problem? Are they both not comic books? Does the OPG provide prices for most comic books?

 

How does comparing the value of one book to another create a problem, and what, exactly, IS that problem?

 

What about the list leads anyone to believe that Cerebus #1 is more popular than Hulk #181?

 

It's the OSPG Top 10 BA List for the 44th Edition.

 

That doesn't answer my question. That list very clearly describes itself as the Top 10 BA in terms of value. There's nothing in that list, or the section in which it is contained, that says anything about popularity.

 

Is it true or false that, at the highest grades, Cerebus #1 is more valuable than Hulk #181?

 

 

What do you think is the answer to your last question?

 

Quite obviously, the answer is true, based on sales data alone. What do YOU think is the answer to this question?

 

Already stated my position. You don't agree. That's okay with me.

 

So, you think that Hulk #181 is more valuable than Cerebus #1 in the highest grades? Despite sales data that says otherwise?

 

hm

 

That's an interesting position to adopt.

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And yes, Overstreet is about valuation, but classifying lower print black and white independents as mainstream books and saying that the former is more valuable than the later because someone paid much more for it doesn't tell the whole story. 9.2 is the second highest grade for Cerebus 1. The book will demand more money than a 9.2 Hulk 181. Sales for second highest graded Cerebus 1 should be compared to those of the second highest graded Hulk 181s since all things are not equal in the real world.

 

You can't be serious here......are you really saying that the Overstreet valuations should be based upon relative rankings of graded copies of a particular book. Would anybody be able to figure out the real world valuations from the guide if this were the case.

 

BTW: Did you notice that OS has Hulk 181 valued substantially higher than Cerebus 1 in all condition grades except for the 9.2 top of valuation which is the one used for their Top 10 list. :gossip:

 

No, I'm saying that one should be careful to conclude that the value of a book at a specific grade will tell the whole story.

 

What part of the story is it not telling?

 

You can't figure that out yourself?

 

Oh, no, I'm clearly a numbskull, and need these things carefully explained, or they go right over my head.

 

Please, by all means, explain away! :)

 

No, it's okay. You not a numbskull and you don't need someone like me to explain it to you.

 

RMA you're not a numbskull and I actually think you're just entertaining yourself in this thread at this point.

 

I'm fairly certain that you understand quite well that the OP's point that Overstreet comparing books in only one grade leads to one or two anomalous sales (ie Cerebus in a 9.2) queering the list and giving a completely false impression (ie that Cerebus is a more "valuable" BA book than Hulk 181, when it obviously is not by a mile).

 

-J.

 

It is a more valuable book than Hulk #181, by the parameters given by Overstreet.

 

Sales data proves this.

 

You are being disingenuous when you claim that the OPG is "comparing one grade." They're not comparing any random grade. They are comparing *the most valuable* to *the most valuable*, by the parameters of the OPG.

 

In the highest grade (a decades honored practice) in the OPG, Cerebus #1 is worth more than Hulk #181. This is not supposition, this is confirmed by sales data.

 

And you cannot call the sales data "anomalous" simply because it doesn't fit your narrative.

 

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And yes, Overstreet is about valuation, but classifying lower print black and white independents as mainstream books and saying that the former is more valuable than the later because someone paid much more for it doesn't tell the whole story. 9.2 is the second highest grade for Cerebus 1. The book will demand more money than a 9.2 Hulk 181. Sales for second highest graded Cerebus 1 should be compared to those of the second highest graded Hulk 181s since all things are not equal in the real world.

 

You can't be serious here......are you really saying that the Overstreet valuations should be based upon relative rankings of graded copies of a particular book. Would anybody be able to figure out the real world valuations from the guide if this were the case.

 

BTW: Did you notice that OS has Hulk 181 valued substantially higher than Cerebus 1 in all condition grades except for the 9.2 top of valuation which is the one used for their Top 10 list. :gossip:

 

No, I'm saying that one should be careful to conclude that the value of a book at a specific grade will tell the whole story.

 

What part of the story is it not telling?

 

You can't figure that out yourself?

 

Oh, no, I'm clearly a numbskull, and need these things carefully explained, or they go right over my head.

 

Please, by all means, explain away! :)

 

No, it's okay. You not a numbskull and you don't need someone like me to explain it to you.

 

RMA you're not a numbskull and I actually think you're just entertaining yourself in this thread at this point.

 

I'm fairly certain that you understand quite well that the OP's point that Overstreet comparing books in only one grade leads to one or two anomalous sales (ie Cerebus in a 9.2) queering the list and giving a completely false impression (ie that Cerebus is a more "valuable" BA book than Hulk 181, when it obviously is not by a mile).

 

-J.

 

Well stated (thumbs u

 

A poorly reasoned position is a poorly reasoned position, regardless of how well it is stated.

 

hm

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And yes, Overstreet is about valuation, but classifying lower print black and white independents as mainstream books and saying that the former is more valuable than the later because someone paid much more for it doesn't tell the whole story. 9.2 is the second highest grade for Cerebus 1. The book will demand more money than a 9.2 Hulk 181. Sales for second highest graded Cerebus 1 should be compared to those of the second highest graded Hulk 181s since all things are not equal in the real world.

 

You can't be serious here......are you really saying that the Overstreet valuations should be based upon relative rankings of graded copies of a particular book. Would anybody be able to figure out the real world valuations from the guide if this were the case.

 

BTW: Did you notice that OS has Hulk 181 valued substantially higher than Cerebus 1 in all condition grades except for the 9.2 top of valuation which is the one used for their Top 10 list. :gossip:

 

No, I'm saying that one should be careful to conclude that the value of a book at a specific grade will tell the whole story.

 

What part of the story is it not telling?

 

You can't figure that out yourself?

 

Oh, no, I'm clearly a numbskull, and need these things carefully explained, or they go right over my head.

 

Please, by all means, explain away! :)

 

No, it's okay. You not a numbskull and you don't need someone like me to explain it to you.

 

RMA you're not a numbskull and I actually think you're just entertaining yourself in this thread at this point.

 

I'm fairly certain that you understand quite well that the OP's point that Overstreet comparing books in only one grade leads to one or two anomalous sales (ie Cerebus in a 9.2) queering the list and giving a completely false impression (ie that Cerebus is a more "valuable" BA book than Hulk 181, when it obviously is not by a mile).

 

-J.

 

Well stated (thumbs u

 

A poorly reasoned position is a poorly reasoned position, regardless of how well it is stated.

 

hm

 

Your opinion is noted.

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99%, huh...?

 

hm

 

I wish that were true...I'd like to buy a few more copies.

 

It is the granddaddy of all independent books.

 

I agree. If anyone wants to sell me their high grade non-key Cerebus 1, please let me know.

 

IH 181 I have and can get more copies of whenever I want. Cerebus 1, not so much. :sorry:

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99%, huh...?

 

hm

 

I wish that were true...I'd like to buy a few more copies.

 

It is the granddaddy of all independent books.

 

I agree. If anyone wants to sell me their high grade non-key Cerebus 1, please let me know.

 

IH 181 I have and can get more copies of whenever I want. Cerebus 1, not so much. :sorry:

 

And all the money in the world won't conjur up a 9.8, if none truly exist in that grade.

 

A shame, too. Sim's file copies yielded many ultra high grade early copies...but no #1s above 9.4.

 

If....IF...a 9.8 Cerebus #1 showed up, I don't think $30-$40K would be out of the question.

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99%, huh...?

 

hm

 

I wish that were true...I'd like to buy a few more copies.

 

It is the granddaddy of all independent books.

 

I agree. If anyone wants to sell me their high grade non-key Cerebus 1, please let me know.

 

IH 181 I have and can get more copies of whenever I want. Cerebus 1, not so much. :sorry:

 

And all the money in the world won't conjur up a 9.8, if none truly exist in that grade.

 

A shame, too. Sim's file copies yielded many ultra high grade early copies...but no #1s above 9.4.

 

If....IF...a 9.8 Cerebus #1 showed up, I don't think $30-$40K would be out of the question.

 

....and in the real world the one single sale of that one single book in that one single grade STILL would not make cerebus more "valuable" than hulk 181.

 

-J.

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Guest Grails
99%, huh...?

 

hm

 

I wish that were true...I'd like to buy a few more copies.

 

It is the granddaddy of all independent books.

 

I agree. If anyone wants to sell me their high grade non-key Cerebus 1, please let me know.

 

IH 181 I have and can get more copies of whenever I want. Cerebus 1, not so much. :sorry:

 

And all the money in the world won't conjur up a 9.8, if none truly exist in that grade.

 

A shame, too. Sim's file copies yielded many ultra high grade early copies...but no #1s above 9.4.

 

If....IF...a 9.8 Cerebus #1 showed up, I don't think $30-$40K would be out of the question.

 

....and in the real world the one single sale of that one single book in that one single grade STILL would not make cerebus more "valuable" than hulk 181.

 

-J.

 

In the real world (whatever that means) a 9.4 SS File copy of Cerebus #1 sold for 13k. Its not a matter of which book we prefer, it simply generated a higher price.

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99%, huh...?

 

hm

 

I wish that were true...I'd like to buy a few more copies.

 

It is the granddaddy of all independent books.

 

I agree. If anyone wants to sell me their high grade non-key Cerebus 1, please let me know.

 

IH 181 I have and can get more copies of whenever I want. Cerebus 1, not so much. :sorry:

 

And all the money in the world won't conjur up a 9.8, if none truly exist in that grade.

 

A shame, too. Sim's file copies yielded many ultra high grade early copies...but no #1s above 9.4.

 

If....IF...a 9.8 Cerebus #1 showed up, I don't think $30-$40K would be out of the question.

 

....and in the real world the one single sale of that one single book in that one single grade STILL would not make cerebus more "valuable" than hulk 181.

 

-J.

 

Only in fantasy land, where documented sales figures don't matter.

 

:insane:

 

It's easily possible that...you know, actually comparing grade for grade...that a Cerebus #1 in 9.8 would sell for more than Hulk #181 in 9.8 ever has.

 

Your real issue is that Overstreet didn't do a "most popular" list, which is what you want. The OPG is a price guide, not a popularity guide. Their job is to report prices, not rank characters according to popularity.

 

Wanting the OPG to do a popularity list isn't rational.

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99%, huh...?

 

hm

 

I wish that were true...I'd like to buy a few more copies.

 

It is the granddaddy of all independent books.

 

I agree. If anyone wants to sell me their high grade non-key Cerebus 1, please let me know.

 

IH 181 I have and can get more copies of whenever I want. Cerebus 1, not so much. :sorry:

 

And all the money in the world won't conjur up a 9.8, if none truly exist in that grade.

 

A shame, too. Sim's file copies yielded many ultra high grade early copies...but no #1s above 9.4.

 

If....IF...a 9.8 Cerebus #1 showed up, I don't think $30-$40K would be out of the question.

 

....and in the real world the one single sale of that one single book in that one single grade STILL would not make cerebus more "valuable" than hulk 181.

 

-J.

 

Only in fantasy land, where documented sales figures don't matter.

 

:insane:

 

It's easily possible that...you know, actually comparing grade for grade...that a Cerebus #1 in 9.8 would sell for more than Hulk #181 in 9.8 ever has.

 

Your real issue is that Overstreet didn't do a "most popular" list, which is what you want. The OPG is a price guide, not a popularity guide. Their job is to report prices, not rank characters according to popularity.

 

Wanting the OPG to do a popularity list isn't rational.

 

Untrue. And yet you want to use a hypothetical "single highest graded" copy of cerebus 1 to rationalize its misguided positioning on overstreet's flawed list but ignore the real world sale of hulk 181's "single highest graded" copy for $150k, which was four years ago, and could just as likely be over $200k if it happened today. Makes no sense.

 

Nor does it make sense that you disregard the fact that cerebus sells at about one-half hulk 181 does in an 8.5, (and even lower percentages on down the grading scale) even though there are literally only 6 blue label copies graded higher, while there are hundreds and hundreds hulk 181's graded higher.

 

Nor does it make sense that Overstreet (and you apparently) think that the same 5 or 6 copies of cerebus 1 that have exchanged hands over the last 15 years or so over a 9.0 grade, are in any way, shape or form an appropriate way to determine the actual "value" of the book as compared to the thousands of sales of hulk 181 that have occurred over the same amount of time.

 

Nor does it make sense that you could possibly believe this book is more "valuable" than hulk 181 in real life simply because those five or six highest graded examples of cerebus 1 in a whopping two grade and one or two sale comparison have sold for more than hulk 181's in comparable grade. How convenient it is for cerebus 1 that Overstreet has decided to compare books in that one grade that he does.

 

So yes, in the land of Overstreet at least, cerebus 1 is a mega key that's more "valuable" than hulk 181.

 

But in the real world it's a small niche indy book from the 70's with a low print run, and few high grade copies on the census that get a few specialty book collectors excited when they come to market.

 

Definitely not in hulk 181's league, "value"-wise or otherwise, but certainly in a league of its own.

 

And no, "price variant" books shouldn't be on that list either. :whistle:

 

-J.

 

 

 

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99%, huh...?

 

hm

 

I wish that were true...I'd like to buy a few more copies.

 

It is the granddaddy of all independent books.

 

I agree. If anyone wants to sell me their high grade non-key Cerebus 1, please let me know.

 

IH 181 I have and can get more copies of whenever I want. Cerebus 1, not so much. :sorry:

 

And all the money in the world won't conjur up a 9.8, if none truly exist in that grade.

 

A shame, too. Sim's file copies yielded many ultra high grade early copies...but no #1s above 9.4.

 

If....IF...a 9.8 Cerebus #1 showed up, I don't think $30-$40K would be out of the question.

 

....and in the real world the one single sale of that one single book in that one single grade STILL would not make cerebus more "valuable" than hulk 181.

 

-J.

 

Only in fantasy land, where documented sales figures don't matter.

 

:insane:

 

It's easily possible that...you know, actually comparing grade for grade...that a Cerebus #1 in 9.8 would sell for more than Hulk #181 in 9.8 ever has.

 

Your real issue is that Overstreet didn't do a "most popular" list, which is what you want. The OPG is a price guide, not a popularity guide. Their job is to report prices, not rank characters according to popularity.

 

Wanting the OPG to do a popularity list isn't rational.

 

Untrue. And yet you want to use a hypothetical "single highest graded" copy of cerebus 1 to rationalize its misguided positioning on overstreet's flawed list but ignore the real world sale of hulk 181's "single highest graded" copy for $150k, which was four years ago, and could just as likely be over $200k if it happened today. Makes no sense.

 

That's because, as before, you keep "forgetting" to mention that that $150k sale was for a NINE POINT NINE (9.9) copy.

 

You keep trying to force a 9.9....which is a freak no matter WHAT book it is...into a discussion about averages (and yes, that includes averages of highest graded copies.)

 

I don't want to use a hypothetical "single highest graded" copy of Cerebus #1 at all. That's your invention. I am perfectly fine with there being 3, 4, 5 copies in 9.8, and the value will still stand.

 

Nor does it make sense that you disregard the fact that cerebus sells at about one-half hulk 181 does in an 8.5, (and even lower percentages on down the grading scale) even though there are literally only 6 blue label copies graded higher, while there hundreds and hundreds hulk 181's graded higher.

 

Again, this is your invention, and as Fingh said earlier, a classic straw man.

 

No one is disregarding anything except you. No one is disputing that Hulk, in lower grades, sells for more than Cerebus #1. So? So what? What bearing does that have on the HIGHEST PRICED issue, as reported by the OPG (and supported by sales data?)

 

Just because you want something a certain way doesn't mean the OPG is therefore wrong.

 

But by all means, please keep throwing up straw-man arguments. It keeps me sharp.

 

Nor does it make sense that Overstreet (and you apparently) think that the same 5 or 6 copies of cerebus 1 that have exchanged hands over the last 15 years or so over a 9.0 grade, are in any way, shape or form an appropriate way to determine the actual "value" of the book as compared to the thousands of sales of hulk 181 that have occurred over the same amount of time.

 

Sales data is sales data. The sparsity of sales data does not therefore make said data "anecdotal", as you claimed earlier.

 

Why do you think little sales data means nothing? (And would you please directly answer my question this time? You haven't done that in any of these conversations, as far as I can see.)

 

Nor does it make sense that you could possibly believe this book is more "valuable" than hulk 181 in real life simply because those five or six highest graded examples of cerebus 1 in a whopping two grade and one or two sale comparison have sold for more than hulk 181's in comparable grade. How convenient it is for cerebus 1 that Overstreet has decided to compare books in that one grade that he does.

 

What part of "this book sells for more in this grade" is unclear to you?

 

That is the reason why Cerebus #1 is more valuable than Hulk #1.

 

You keep saying "in real life"...where did these sales take place? Candyland?

 

So yes, in the land of Overstreet at least, cerebus 1 is a mega key that's more "valuable" than hulk 181.

 

More straw-man arguing. OPG didn't call it a "mega key." And there's no need for quotation marks: by the OPG's parameters, the book is ACTUALLY more valuable.

 

But in the real world it's a small niche indy book from the 70's with a low print run, and few high grade copies on the census that get a few specialty book collectors excited when they come to market.

 

So? The only thing that matters is this: does the book sell for more, in high grade, IN THE SAME GRADE, as Hulk #181?

 

Yes/no.

 

Pretty simple.

 

Why you keep fighting this is truly beyond me. You either have issues being rational, or you're a genius who can fake irrationality realllly well.

 

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Speaking of Bronze Age and Cerebus a new issue of the magazine "Back Issue #75" is this week at major newsstands and next week at comic shops and features a long article on Cerebus among others.

10631133_10204923711995915_8026567400190719501_o.jpg

 

Can't wait to read it! If not for the independents of the 80's and 90's I wouldn't even still be collecting comics.

 

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As someone that appreciates both books for being awesome in their own right, i find it strange that the print run is being used to somehow "beat down" Cerebus and its place in comics history.

 

Marvel is paramount for many if not most posters. I get that. I love Marvel, too. Cerebus was a simple B&W self-published Conan parody book that became a launching pad for the entire alternative comics movement. By its very nature it never would or could have a high print run. It wouldn't have been what it was if it had been distributed everywhere. If Cerebus had been published by Marvel, it probably would have the same value and desirability as Skull the Slayer #1.

 

But it wasn't. Instead it plays a very important part in the history of comics that don't involve superheroes. Will it always be niche and/or tangential to the largest parts of this hobby. Most likely yes. Is its high value (or price if you prefer) bolstered by its low print run? Absolutely. But the fact that not everyone wants one seems a silly reason to denigrate it. It has maintained a high relative value (price) because the number of people that do want it far outweigh the available copies.

 

Can't they both be awesome for what they are?

 

+1000

 

 

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99%, huh...?

 

hm

 

I wish that were true...I'd like to buy a few more copies.

 

It is the granddaddy of all independent books.

 

I agree. If anyone wants to sell me their high grade non-key Cerebus 1, please let me know.

 

IH 181 I have and can get more copies of whenever I want. Cerebus 1, not so much. :sorry:

 

And all the money in the world won't conjur up a 9.8, if none truly exist in that grade.

 

A shame, too. Sim's file copies yielded many ultra high grade early copies...but no #1s above 9.4.

 

If....IF...a 9.8 Cerebus #1 showed up, I don't think $30-$40K would be out of the question.

 

....and in the real world the one single sale of that one single book in that one single grade STILL would not make cerebus more "valuable" than hulk 181.

 

-J.

 

Only in fantasy land, where documented sales figures don't matter.

 

:insane:

 

It's easily possible that...you know, actually comparing grade for grade...that a Cerebus #1 in 9.8 would sell for more than Hulk #181 in 9.8 ever has.

 

Your real issue is that Overstreet didn't do a "most popular" list, which is what you want. The OPG is a price guide, not a popularity guide. Their job is to report prices, not rank characters according to popularity.

 

Wanting the OPG to do a popularity list isn't rational.

 

Untrue. And yet you want to use a hypothetical "single highest graded" copy of cerebus 1 to rationalize its misguided positioning on overstreet's flawed list but ignore the real world sale of hulk 181's "single highest graded" copy for $150k, which was four years ago, and could just as likely be over $200k if it happened today. Makes no sense.

 

That's because, as before, you keep "forgetting" to mention that that $150k sale was for a NINE POINT NINE (9.9) copy.

 

You keep trying to force a 9.9....which is a freak no matter WHAT book it is...into a discussion about averages (and yes, that includes averages of highest graded copies.)

 

I don't want to use a hypothetical "single highest graded" copy of Cerebus #1 at all. That's your invention. I am perfectly fine with there being 3, 4, 5 copies in 9.8, and the value will still stand.

 

Nor does it make sense that you disregard the fact that cerebus sells at about one-half hulk 181 does in an 8.5, (and even lower percentages on down the grading scale) even though there are literally only 6 blue label copies graded higher, while there hundreds and hundreds hulk 181's graded higher.

 

Again, this is your invention, and as Fingh said earlier, a classic straw man.

 

No one is disregarding anything except you. No one is disputing that Hulk, in lower grades, sells for more than Cerebus #1. So? So what? What bearing does that have on the HIGHEST PRICED issue, as reported by the OPG (and supported by sales data?)

 

Just because you want something a certain way doesn't mean the OPG is therefore wrong.

 

But by all means, please keep throwing up straw-man arguments. It keeps me sharp.

 

Nor does it make sense that Overstreet (and you apparently) think that the same 5 or 6 copies of cerebus 1 that have exchanged hands over the last 15 years or so over a 9.0 grade, are in any way, shape or form an appropriate way to determine the actual "value" of the book as compared to the thousands of sales of hulk 181 that have occurred over the same amount of time.

 

Sales data is sales data. The sparsity of sales data does not therefore make said data "anecdotal", as you claimed earlier.

 

Why do you think little sales data means nothing? (And would you please directly answer my question this time? You haven't done that in any of these conversations, as far as I can see.)

 

Nor does it make sense that you could possibly believe this book is more "valuable" than hulk 181 in real life simply because those five or six highest graded examples of cerebus 1 in a whopping two grade and one or two sale comparison have sold for more than hulk 181's in comparable grade. How convenient it is for cerebus 1 that Overstreet has decided to compare books in that one grade that he does.

 

What part of "this book sells for more in this grade" is unclear to you?

 

That is the reason why Cerebus #1 is more valuable than Hulk #1.

 

You keep saying "in real life"...where did these sales take place? Candyland?

 

So yes, in the land of Overstreet at least, cerebus 1 is a mega key that's more "valuable" than hulk 181.

 

More straw-man arguing. OPG didn't call it a "mega key." And there's no need for quotation marks: by the OPG's parameters, the book is ACTUALLY more valuable.

 

But in the real world it's a small niche indy book from the 70's with a low print run, and few high grade copies on the census that get a few specialty book collectors excited when they come to market.

 

So? The only thing that matters is this: does the book sell for more, in high grade, IN THE SAME GRADE, as Hulk #181?

 

Yes/no.

 

Pretty simple.

 

Why you keep fighting this is truly beyond me. You either have issues being rational, or you're a genius who can fake irrationality realllly well.

 

The only person using a "straw man" argument here is the guy who's using selective data points-- in this case, the exactly three copies of Cerebus 1 that exist in 9.2-- to the exclusion of all other data points that exist in the real world and not only within the pages of Overstreet -- to achieve and believe in a particular result.

 

-J.

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