OAAW 83's potential to be a top 5 SA key?

[bronze johnny]

Clearly I had a lot of time to kill with that last post. Pumpkin Pie Day affords me extra time so if you wanna disagree, NOWs a good time, RMA!!!

 

No taking issue with you- your point about OAAW 83 becoming more recognizable in the consciousness of collectors is one I ascribe to. Interestingly, 83 in some way is an "evolutionary" book. Only until relatively recent times did the consensus of war collector's accept that it was the 1st "true" (not widely used defining term for a 1st app. In this medium) appearance of Rock. In fact, the heated arguments over whether 83 was Rock's 1st app. were some of the most passionate that I've ever witnessed. As we can see, it took time for 83 to evolve and the "issue" of its significance needed to be resolved among war collectors prior to drawing any interest from the larger community of SA collectors. 83 continues to evolve and enter the consciousness of a "bell weather" group that I call the "Diverse Portfolio SA key collectors." It's this group of collectors that recognizes an exception to the notion that the great SA keys are exclusive to one genre.

[comick1]

83 continues to evolve and enter the consciousness of a "bell weather" group that I call the "Diverse Portfolio SA key collectors." It's this group of collectors that recognizes an exception to the notion that the great SA keys are exclusive to one genre.

 

That's a good moniker for that group. I think what you say is definitely true. . .it DID take time for the consensus to shift in favor of the OAAW #83. There are still detractors, but I'm thinking that the vast majority of folks (beyond the war collectors) believe OAAW #83 to be THE book if they're looking for THE single key. OAAW #83 does defy much of the typical constructs for what constitutes a key. . .but that consensus took the better part of 25 years of debate, discussion, debate, reevaluation, debate, synthesis, and more debate. I'm not pulling that number out of a hat. Pedrin's book came out more than 20 years ago and I recall discussing it with him years before he "dropped the bombshell" in print. . .and to be clear, it WAS Chris who was the first person I knew to make a case for it. I remember thinking at the time that I was glad that I'd already a scored a copy of #83 (which would have been in the summer/fall of 1990 or so).

 

So going by your "diverse portfolio SA key collectors" moniker, I'd say that there's another group of collectors who are "diverse portfolio SA cool-representative-copy-from-a-given-title collectors" who may be less interested in getting all the keys much less the whole runs and want some neat representative copies from titles and/or genres. Maybe a better moniker for "diverse portfolio SA cool-representative-copy-from-a-given-title collectors" would be "generalist." I have a friend who a number of us have dubbed "the all-consuming collector" (you know who you are, dude). He's taken exception to this if only because he noted that it is not possible to buy everything, so he's very "particular" about which copies he wants from the various genres or titles (GA and SA). I think there are quite a few of these "generalists" out there. Maybe not going for SA and GA or every title, but certainly not going after keys as much as they are just representative copies. It's these folks who are just as likely to get a great cover as they are a minor key. :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah:

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

I thought you didn't have time for all of this....

 

[comick1]

 

I thought you didn't have time for all of this....

 

 

Argue away sir!

[Philreal]

83 continues to evolve and enter the consciousness of a "bell weather" group that I call the "Diverse Portfolio SA key collectors." It's this group of collectors that recognizes an exception to the notion that the great SA keys are exclusive to one genre.

 

That's a good moniker for that group. I think what you say is definitely true. . .it DID take time for the consensus to shift in favor of the OAAW #83. There are still detractors, but I'm thinking that the vast majority of folks (beyond the war collectors) believe OAAW #83 to be THE book if they're looking for THE single key. OAAW #83 does defy much of the typical constructs for what constitutes a key. . .but that consensus took the better part of 25 years of debate, discussion, debate, reevaluation, debate, synthesis, and more debate. I'm not pulling that number out of a hat. Pedrin's book came out more than 20 years ago and I recall discussing it with him years before he "dropped the bombshell" in print. . .and to be clear, it WAS Chris who was the first person I knew to make a case for it. I remember thinking at the time that I was glad that I'd already a scored a copy of #83 (which would have been in the summer/fall of 1990 or so).

 

So going by your "diverse portfolio SA key collectors" moniker, I'd say that there's another group of collectors who are "diverse portfolio SA cool-representative-copy-from-a-given-title collectors" who may be less interested in getting all the keys much less the whole runs and want some neat representative copies from titles and/or genres. Maybe a better moniker for "diverse portfolio SA cool-representative-copy-from-a-given-title collectors" would be "generalist." I have a friend who a number of us have dubbed "the all-consuming collector" (you know who you are, dude). He's taken exception to this if only because he noted that it is not possible to buy everything, so he's very "particular" about which copies he wants from the various genres or titles (GA and SA). I think there are quite a few of these "generalists" out there. Maybe not going for SA and GA or every title, but certainly not going after keys as much as they are just representative copies. It's these folks who are just as likely to get a great cover as they are a minor key. :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah:

 

As an old time collector, the Big-Five has always been a closet fascination for me. Always had an interest but seemed that the general comic collecting folks I knew were all into the Super-Hero stuff(big shock, right?) This is all good information!

Don't stop now!

[comick1]

83 continues to evolve and enter the consciousness of a "bell weather" group that I call the "Diverse Portfolio SA key collectors." It's this group of collectors that recognizes an exception to the notion that the great SA keys are exclusive to one genre.

 

That's a good moniker for that group. I think what you say is definitely true. . .it DID take time for the consensus to shift in favor of the OAAW #83. There are still detractors, but I'm thinking that the vast majority of folks (beyond the war collectors) believe OAAW #83 to be THE book if they're looking for THE single key. OAAW #83 does defy much of the typical constructs for what constitutes a key. . .but that consensus took the better part of 25 years of debate, discussion, debate, reevaluation, debate, synthesis, and more debate. I'm not pulling that number out of a hat. Pedrin's book came out more than 20 years ago and I recall discussing it with him years before he "dropped the bombshell" in print. . .and to be clear, it WAS Chris who was the first person I knew to make a case for it. I remember thinking at the time that I was glad that I'd already a scored a copy of #83 (which would have been in the summer/fall of 1990 or so).

 

So going by your "diverse portfolio SA key collectors" moniker, I'd say that there's another group of collectors who are "diverse portfolio SA cool-representative-copy-from-a-given-title collectors" who may be less interested in getting all the keys much less the whole runs and want some neat representative copies from titles and/or genres. Maybe a better moniker for "diverse portfolio SA cool-representative-copy-from-a-given-title collectors" would be "generalist." I have a friend who a number of us have dubbed "the all-consuming collector" (you know who you are, dude). He's taken exception to this if only because he noted that it is not possible to buy everything, so he's very "particular" about which copies he wants from the various genres or titles (GA and SA). I think there are quite a few of these "generalists" out there. Maybe not going for SA and GA or every title, but certainly not going after keys as much as they are just representative copies. It's these folks who are just as likely to get a great cover as they are a minor key. :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah:

 

As an old time collector, the Big-Five has always been a closet fascination for me. Always had an interest but seemed that the general comic collecting folks I knew were all into the Super-Hero stuff(big shock, right?) This is all good information!

Don't stop now!

 

 

I don't discourage the heat that the OAAW #83 gets. It's a comic that has been "neglected" for a long time and really only in the last 10 years has it picked up. I think there will always be a small but devoted group of war comic collectors who will want it. But perhaps not as many as there are now. Some of the posters have stated that us war comics completists are a disappearing breed. That MIGHT be true, but speaking for myself and another guy who have been collecting them for nearly a quarter century with no hint of stopping. We plan on collecting well past retirement. If we live a normal life, that means we have another 40 or so years of collecting before our kids eventually sell them off.

 

We ARE on the younger end of the war collector spectrum, but I do know collectors who are younger than us. . .might not have as many comics, but love the genre and would spend a lot of $$ if they eventually land a job that lets them do that. I can't afford TOO much extravagence but luckily I scored the majority of stuff 20 years ago when it was cheap. When I fill in a hole nowadays, it's expensive, but it doesn't happen very often, so my budget can handle it.

 

That said, there were quite a few folks right here on the boards who were around my age that were serious war comics collectors, but sold off their collections. I can think of four guys in particular who accumulated some absolutely beautiful runs of war books with keys and highly coveted issues--many in high grade, but are no longer in it. You can TELL that they're no longer in it because, in general, the rank & file issues (non-keys, non-washtones, normal covers) are going for 2/3 or 3/4 of what they WERE going for at auction. Yes, there's an occasional "blip" for non-keys where somebody out there badly wants a copy of something, but no more crazy shˆt like a $10,000 Buy it Now purchase of an OAAW #112 on C-link (that subsequently sold for 1/4 that price). Currently there are just fewer of (uvvvvvvvv) us. . .

. . .currently.

 

Will there be younger collectors who enter the war collecting genre and go all-in? Yeah. In the numbers that would help sustain the war genre (not just OAAW #83) in general? Maybe.

 

Would a Sgt. Rock movie pull people in? Maybe. Sure the superhero movie thing has worked out well for some things that many of us would never have predicted a couple years ago. GOTG is a perfect example of this. But I think there are a lot MORE movies that have been made that fell flat with audiences and served to falsely inflate their value only to see them fall back to prices that actual comics collectors could support. GL and Jonah Hex are good examples of this. I don't include the Marvel or Batman movies because those are established characters who will ALWAYS have a mass audience. Unless something truly rare happens (along the lines of GOTG), a Sgt. Rock movie will carry massive speculation, but the insane prices will go back to normal within a couple years of the movie--AFTER it flops. Perhaps it's arrogant or UNvisionary of me to say that I can't picture them doing justice to the Sgt. Rock character and back story. I truly think that it's not "filmable" in any kind of traditional sense. Somebody said that Rock will be filmed in outer space or some crazy shît like that. That would be even worse, IMHO, but then again, movie audiences don't care about the comics history of the characters.

 

I frankly don't care what they do with the movie thing, and if I die with comics that are worth a fraction of what they are worth today, that's OK with me. I enjoy them too much to care about that.

 

Back to OAAW #83.

I think that there are now NUMEROUS collectors out there who happily drop $30,000 - $50,000 on a single book without blinking an eye There are at least a handful right here on these boards who will do that. I don't think that was true 20 years ago (accounting for inflation). If they get the chance to own a really nice copy of a genre, no matter how "niche" it is, they'll take it. I debate how "niche" Sgt. Rock is especially in comparison to things like romance, western, or even horror and sci-fi depending on company and era, of course.

 

I don't think there are many (if any) war collectors who can sustain that kind of competitive pricing for that book, but I don't think that the big prices for that book will be dropped by war collectors from here on out. It HAS reached a level of notoriety amongst collectors--heavy hitters and bottom feeders alike--that seems to bode well for its long-term "name-recognition." At least that's the view through my own tank-goggles.

 

RMA, if you disagree with something here, I have a week (of remaining winter break) to get into any before I burrow back into my teaching foxhole. So now or never, dude.

[BarryAllen]

Such long posts these days...

 

Anyway

[roulette44]

[bronze johnny]

83 continues to evolve and enter the consciousness of a "bell weather" group that I call the "Diverse Portfolio SA key collectors." It's this group of collectors that recognizes an exception to the notion that the great SA keys are exclusive to one genre.

 

That's a good moniker for that group. I think what you say is definitely true. . .it DID take time for the consensus to shift in favor of the OAAW #83. There are still detractors, but I'm thinking that the vast majority of folks (beyond the war collectors) believe OAAW #83 to be THE book if they're looking for THE single key. OAAW #83 does defy much of the typical constructs for what constitutes a key. . .but that consensus took the better part of 25 years of debate, discussion, debate, reevaluation, debate, synthesis, and more debate. I'm not pulling that number out of a hat. Pedrin's book came out more than 20 years ago and I recall discussing it with him years before he "dropped the bombshell" in print. . .and to be clear, it WAS Chris who was the first person I knew to make a case for it. I remember thinking at the time that I was glad that I'd already a scored a copy of #83 (which would have been in the summer/fall of 1990 or so).

 

So going by your "diverse portfolio SA key collectors" moniker, I'd say that there's another group of collectors who are "diverse portfolio SA cool-representative-copy-from-a-given-title collectors" who may be less interested in getting all the keys much less the whole runs and want some neat representative copies from titles and/or genres. Maybe a better moniker for "diverse portfolio SA cool-representative-copy-from-a-given-title collectors" would be "generalist." I have a friend who a number of us have dubbed "the all-consuming collector" (you know who you are, dude). He's taken exception to this if only because he noted that it is not possible to buy everything, so he's very "particular" about which copies he wants from the various genres or titles (GA and SA). I think there are quite a few of these "generalists" out there. Maybe not going for SA and GA or every title, but certainly not going after keys as much as they are just representative copies. It's these folks who are just as likely to get a great cover as they are a minor key. :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah:

 

As an old time collector, the Big-Five has always been a closet fascination for me. Always had an interest but seemed that the general comic collecting folks I knew were all into the Super-Hero stuff(big shock, right?) This is all good information!

Don't stop now!

 

 

I don't discourage the heat that the OAAW #83 gets. It's a comic that has been "neglected" for a long time and really only in the last 10 years has it picked up. I think there will always be a small but devoted group of war comic collectors who will want it. But perhaps not as many as there are now. Some of the posters have stated that us war comics completists are a disappearing breed. That MIGHT be true, but speaking for myself and another guy who have been collecting them for nearly a quarter century with no hint of stopping. We plan on collecting well past retirement. If we live a normal life, that means we have another 40 or so years of collecting before our kids eventually sell them off.

 

We ARE on the younger end of the war collector spectrum, but I do know collectors who are younger than us. . .might not have as many comics, but love the genre and would spend a lot of $$ if they eventually land a job that lets them do that. I can't afford TOO much extravagence but luckily I scored the majority of stuff 20 years ago when it was cheap. When I fill in a hole nowadays, it's expensive, but it doesn't happen very often, so my budget can handle it.

 

That said, there were quite a few folks right here on the boards who were around my age that were serious war comics collectors, but sold off their collections. I can think of four guys in particular who accumulated some absolutely beautiful runs of war books with keys and highly coveted issues--many in high grade, but are no longer in it. You can TELL that they're no longer in it because, in general, the rank & file issues (non-keys, non-washtones, normal covers) are going for 2/3 or 3/4 of what they WERE going for at auction. Yes, there's an occasional "blip" for non-keys where somebody out there badly wants a copy of something, but no more crazy shˆt like a $10,000 Buy it Now purchase of an OAAW #112 on C-link (that subsequently sold for 1/4 that price). Currently there are just fewer of (uvvvvvvvv) us. . .

. . .currently.

 

Will there be younger collectors who enter the war collecting genre and go all-in? Yeah. In the numbers that would help sustain the war genre (not just OAAW #83) in general? Maybe.

 

Would a Sgt. Rock movie pull people in? Maybe. Sure the superhero movie thing has worked out well for some things that many of us would never have predicted a couple years ago. GOTG is a perfect example of this. But I think there are a lot MORE movies that have been made that fell flat with audiences and served to falsely inflate their value only to see them fall back to prices that actual comics collectors could support. GL and Jonah Hex are good examples of this. I don't include the Marvel or Batman movies because those are established characters who will ALWAYS have a mass audience. Unless something truly rare happens (along the lines of GOTG), a Sgt. Rock movie will carry massive speculation, but the insane prices will go back to normal within a couple years of the movie--AFTER it flops. Perhaps it's arrogant or UNvisionary of me to say that I can't picture them doing justice to the Sgt. Rock character and back story. I truly think that it's not "filmable" in any kind of traditional sense. Somebody said that Rock will be filmed in outer space or some crazy shît like that. That would be even worse, IMHO, but then again, movie audiences don't care about the comics history of the characters.

 

I frankly don't care what they do with the movie thing, and if I die with comics that are worth a fraction of what they are worth today, that's OK with me. I enjoy them too much to care about that.

 

Back to OAAW #83.

I think that there are now NUMEROUS collectors out there who happily drop $30,000 - $50,000 on a single book without blinking an eye There are at least a handful right here on these boards who will do that. I don't think that was true 20 years ago (accounting for inflation). If they get the chance to own a really nice copy of a genre, no matter how "niche" it is, they'll take it. I debate how "niche" Sgt. Rock is especially in comparison to things like romance, western, or even horror and sci-fi depending on company and era, of course.

 

I don't think there are many (if any) war collectors who can sustain that kind of competitive pricing for that book, but I don't think that the big prices for that book will be dropped by war collectors from here on out. It HAS reached a level of notoriety amongst collectors--heavy hitters and bottom feeders alike--that seems to bode well for its long-term "name-recognition." At least that's the view through my own tank-goggles.

 

RMA, if you disagree with something here, I have a week (of remaining winter break) to get into any before I burrow back into my teaching foxhole. So now or never, dude.

 

One thing to consider: 83's place as the greatest war key in the history of the American Comic Book contributes to it being a "breakthrough book." It's this breakthrough- a book at the apex of a genre- that will continue to draw interest among those seeking to "climb the highest mountain on each continent" and what a remarkable group of climbers they are!

[Aman619]

It's kinda hard to call it a breakthrough book when it has so many almost similar cousins. Meaning it's not a book that introduces a new character in an obvious and celebratory way like most other first appearances. More like at the end of the day after careful investigation , yes this is the first Sgt Rock a bit more definitively than these other 4 books.

 

Most superhero introductions say so on the cover, with an illustration of the new character. Most, not all.

[MusterMark]

Perhaps bronzej could explain his definition of the term "breakthrough book" some more. Otherwise, there might be some misunderstanding of what he intended.

[Bronty]

It's kinda hard to call it a breakthrough book when it has so many almost similar cousins. Meaning it's not a book that introduces a new character in an obvious and celebratory way like most other first appearances. More like at the end of the day after careful investigation , yes this is the first Sgt Rock a bit more definitively than these other 4 books.

 

Most superhero introductions say so on the cover, with an illustration of the new character. Most, not all.

 

Yes! Its stunning that really just in 2014 did we come to a consensus about a first appearance from 1959. Just mind boggling really.

[MusterMark]

It's kinda hard to call it a breakthrough book when it has so many almost similar cousins. Meaning it's not a book that introduces a new character in an obvious and celebratory way like most other first appearances. More like at the end of the day after careful investigation , yes this is the first Sgt Rock a bit more definitively than these other 4 books.

 

Most superhero introductions say so on the cover, with an illustration of the new character. Most, not all.

 

Yes! Its stunning that really just in 2014 did we come to a consensus about a first appearance from 1959. Just mind boggling really.

 

2014?? I think this was established many years ago (just how many is a good question). But certainly not this year. And I know that this does not detract from your point even if it was some years back, but certainly not 2014.

[Bronty]

well OK maybe not 2014 but yes its been very recent in the grand scheme. I don't think it was really fully accepted until what 2012 ish? 2011?

[bronze johnny]

Perhaps bronzej could explain his definition of the term "breakthrough book" some more. Otherwise, there might be some misunderstanding of what he intended.

 

Sure- 83 is the first non-superhero genre key to exceed the value of some of the Overstreet Top 20 SA keys. If a war key competing with superhero keys in an age dominated by the superhero genre? If that's not a breakthrough, what is?

[BarryAllen]

Perhaps bronzej could explain his definition of the term "breakthrough book" some more. Otherwise, there might be some misunderstanding of what he intended.

 

Sure- 83 is the first non-superhero genre key to exceed the value of some of the Overstreet Top 20 SA keys. If a war key competing with superhero keys in an age dominated by the superhero genre? If that's not a breakthrough, what is?

 

All it proves is that old people have money they didn't have the last 20 years and they are willing to spend it to regain a piece of their youth...

 

Seriously, the war genre is going to disappear along with westerns and everything else that is not popular with today's youth. It won't happen tomorrow, but it is coming.

 

There are way too many people in here that are blinded by the "what I collect is awesome" bug.

[Jaydogrules]

Perhaps bronzej could explain his definition of the term "breakthrough book" some more. Otherwise, there might be some misunderstanding of what he intended.

 

Sure- 83 is the first non-superhero genre key to exceed the value of some of the Overstreet Top 20 SA keys. If a war key competing with superhero keys in an age dominated by the superhero genre? If that's not a breakthrough, what is?

 

Wait. I still think we are confusing rarity and interest amongst a passionate but small sub-set of collectors with actual, bona fide broad based demand. One or two seemingly high prices realized on this book a year doesn't really tell us much about the true "value" of it, and that puts comparisons of it to mainstream titles in a bit of a vacuum.

 

-J.

[BarryAllen]

Perhaps bronzej could explain his definition of the term "breakthrough book" some more. Otherwise, there might be some misunderstanding of what he intended.

 

Sure- 83 is the first non-superhero genre key to exceed the value of some of the Overstreet Top 20 SA keys. If a war key competing with superhero keys in an age dominated by the superhero genre? If that's not a breakthrough, what is?

 

Wait. I still think we are confusing rarity and interest amongst a passionate but small sub-set of collectors with actual, bona fide broad based demand. One or two seemingly high prices realized on this book a year doesn't really tell us much about the true "value" of it.

 

-J.

 

+1

[mrmyst]

Perhaps bronzej could explain his definition of the term "breakthrough book" some more. Otherwise, there might be some misunderstanding of what he intended.

 

Sure- 83 is the first non-superhero genre key to exceed the value of some of the Overstreet Top 20 SA keys. If a war key competing with superhero keys in an age dominated by the superhero genre? If that's not a breakthrough, what is?

 

All it proves is that old people have money they didn't have the last 20 years and they are willing to spend it to regain a piece of their youth...

 

Seriously, the war genre is going to disappear along with westerns and everything else that is not popular with today's youth. It won't happen tomorrow, but it is coming.

 

There are way too many people in here that are blinded by the "what I collect is awesome" bug.

 

Jeez. I'm new to it. I guess I might as well quit right now.

[bronze johnny]

Perhaps bronzej could explain his definition of the term "breakthrough book" some more. Otherwise, there might be some misunderstanding of what he intended.

 

Sure- 83 is the first non-superhero genre key to exceed the value of some of the Overstreet Top 20 SA keys. If a war key competing with superhero keys in an age dominated by the superhero genre? If that's not a breakthrough, what is?

 

All it proves is that old people have money they didn't have the last 20 years and they are willing to spend it to regain a piece of their youth...

 

Seriously, the war genre is going to disappear along with westerns and everything else that is not popular with today's youth. It won't happen tomorrow, but it is coming.

 

There are way too many people in here that are blinded by the "what I collect is awesome" bug.

 

Your points about the demise of the war and western genres reminded me of the period after the Second World War when the superhero genre all but disappeared while the horror, crime, and romance genres dominated this medium. Perhaps it has nothing to do with "what I collect is awesome bug" but rather an understanding by some that many of the changes we see in this hobby we love are cyclical?