Ebay Seller Issue...

[kav]

points

[fastballspecial]

?? That's what this whole thread is about. He's doing it RIGHT NOW. Right here:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/L0217-Strange-Tales-107-Vol-1-VF-Condition-/351354119849?ssPageName=ADME:X:AAQ:US:1123&rmvSB=true

 

 

He has been informed the book is trimmed. He is selling it without disclosure. You even just posted you agree it's trimmed. CGC says it's trimmed. What else do you need?!?!?

 

No he has been informed that a third party believes it to be trimmed. He has stated that he asked another third party who's opinion was that it's untrimmed.

 

When subsequently asked, he informed a prospective buyer that a third party thought it was trimmed.

 

CGC think it's trimmed, I think it's trimmed. Guess what? Other people don't.

 

That's why they're opinions.

 

So basically every single person selling a restored book as unrestored gets a pass.

 

Too broad a stroke here. The devil is always in the details.

 

[fastballspecial]

Really in all honesty if the seller is going to sell a high grade raw sought after book they better do their research. Especially in this day in age where everyone is guilty first.

 

The torch and pitchfork come fast and furious here and reputation can be destroyed, by just a lack of experience.

 

 

 

 

[jimjum12]

I think the seller may actually believe the book is untrimmed...... already been pointed out that comics aren't his specialty..... someone has probably misled him. Why risk a mega feedback reputation for a few hundred bucks ? I know old school collectors who still think CGC swaps out your nicer book for one of their lesser ones(to which, I respectfully disagree....)..... so not everyone is riding the CGC bus...... and the CGC market pales in comparison to the raw market in scope. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[kav]

Yup

Whether the book is trimmed or not is irrelevant-it's what CGC says that counts.

[HighStakesComics]

This poor seller was probably just trying to diversify out of the grind of the stamp business. Little did he know the ramifications........

[RockMyAmadeus]

RMA, I can't help but think you are willfully resorting to strawmen.

 

Strawman arguments are for the intellectually lazy or weak, those unwilling to form, or incapable of forming, rational, reasoned positions. Since I'm fairly capable of forming rational, reasoned positions, I'd be interested to know what strawmen arguments you believe I have constructed.

 

 

I never said that anyone should buy the book now for the excuse of leaving a negative feedback.

 

I did not say you said that.

 

I said that is the logical result of your statement, otherwise ""if you don't want negative feedback, don't get caught knowingly selling trimmed books as unrestored" has no meaning.

 

Did you read my explanation for why? Here, I'll say it again: it's not possible to "catch someone knowingly selling trimmed books as unrestored" unless you know A. that the book is, in fact, restored, and B. that the seller knows it, and disregards it anyway (as opposed to...and this is critical now...reasonably objecting.)

 

And since there's no way to know that prior to engaging in the transaction (unless you're engaging in it for the express purpose of "catching" said seller), your statement is otherwise an impossible scenario as it applies to the already completed transaction. Either you don't know that the seller is "knowingly selling trimmed books as unrestored"...in which case, it's bad faith to leave negative feedback after the fact....or you DO know, in which case, you are acting in bad faith to engage in the transaction in the first place.

 

I know you wish to believe that this seller "got caught knowingly selling trimmed books as unrestored", and therefore deserved the negative feedback, but again, that relies either on conclusions that you simply cannot draw, or on ex post facto circumstances that are unrelated to the original transaction.

 

You may not like his reasoning, and you may not agree with his conclusion (I don't), but the fact remains that you cannot make a charge of "knowingly selling trimmed books as unrestored" because the seller has already voiced his disagreement with that analysis and given a legitimate reason for doing so.

 

And that does not rise to the level of negative feedback.

 

What you mean is "if you don't want negative feedback (on an already completed transaction), don't (later) get caught knowingly selling (that same) trimmed book(s) as unrestored (or you will retroactively get negative feedback applied to that already completed transaction.)" That's what you really mean, and that's not a legitimate reason for leaving negative feedback.

 

No reasonable person could interpret what I said that way. I was clearly referring to the fact that the seller is selling the book RIGHT NOW without disclosure, despite having been informed that CGC said it was trimmed.

 

Except that I said this:

 

I agree with most of that (except I do think the neg was earned), but I would add - if you don't want negative feedback, don't get caught knowingly selling trimmed books as unrestored.

 

...which this seller didn't do.

 

To which you responded, punctuation marks ablaze "?? That's what this whole thread is about. He's doing it RIGHT NOW. Right here"

 

And that's where the problem lies. My statement had nothing whatsoever to do with what the seller is doing right now. See? "Which this seller didn't do", which is past tense.

 

Whether or not he's doing it now (which is still just your opinion) is not what I was referring to. As you pointed out, this entire thread has been about this specific transaction, and in this specific transaction, you cannot make a reasonable claim that "if you don't want negative feedback, don't get caught knowingly selling trimmed books as unrestored", because do not know, and cannot prove, that the seller acted in bad faith with regards to this specific transaction.

 

We could have avoided this whole tangent if you had said, as Wombat did "isn't that what he doing now?" to which I replied "the case could be made that that's what he's doing now, but that doesn't justify the negative feedback left before."

 

That's why the OP left the negative. It is abundantly clear that that is what I was referring to.

 

I don't disagree with you in the slightest. But that's not what I was referring to.

 

Hopefully, that clears that up...?

 

If you are BUYING a book with the express purpose to "leave a seller negative feedback for knowingly selling trimmed books as unrestored", as your statement above implies, then you are acting in BAD FAITH,

 

No, my statement did not imply, state, insinuate, or suggest that. You inferred it that way.

 

It did, but I accept that that's not how you meant it. I am only describing the scenario, not stating that that's what you said...but it is most definitely implied.

 

And then you tell other people to "dial it back". Wow.

 

"Dial it back" refers to the aggressive, rude, crude use of words and phrases like "a *spoon* and balls sandwich" and "Oh, that's just rich"

 

If you feel I have been rude, hostile, or aggressive in some manner towards you, I apologize, it certainly isn't intentional, and will try better to not do those things to which you object. I would ask, in return, that you refrain from expressions of incredulity like "wow" and "stunning", as if what someone is saying is so far beyond reason, you don't know what else to say.

 

Disagreement, however, doesn't need to be "dialed back", and I will certainly feel free to disagree with you, as you should with me.

 

There are two things you should never do...the first is, never get involved in a land war in Asia, but the second is, never go up against a Sicilian when death is on the line.

 

(I'm neither Sicilian, nor is death on the line, but it's a wonderful line nonetheless.)

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

?? That's what this whole thread is about. He's doing it RIGHT NOW. Right here:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/L0217-Strange-Tales-107-Vol-1-VF-Condition-/351354119849?ssPageName=ADME:X:AAQ:US:1123&rmvSB=true

 

 

He has been informed the book is trimmed. He is selling it without disclosure. You even just posted you agree it's trimmed. CGC says it's trimmed. What else do you need?!?!?

 

No he has been informed that a third party believes it to be trimmed. He has stated that he asked another third party who's opinion was that it's untrimmed.

 

When subsequently asked, he informed a prospective buyer that a third party thought it was trimmed.

 

CGC think it's trimmed, I think it's trimmed. Guess what? Other people don't.

 

That's why they're opinions.

 

So basically every single person selling a restored book as unrestored gets a pass.

 

No. It means that restoration detection is not an exact science, and there is room within that to reasonably disagree with a conclusion.

 

Key words ----> "Reasonably disagree."

 

Every single shady person can say "I disagree. In my opinion I don't agree with you. Or CGC. Or anyone else".

 

What exactly would you consider "reasonable"?

 

It has to be reasonable to the seller. And this seller gave what he felt (and many feel) is a reasonable objection.

 

Do I agree with his conclusion? No, not at all. Neither does CGC.

 

But we're not talking about whether or not the book is *actually* trimmed, or what you or I or CGC thinks...we're talking about what the seller thinks. We're talking about justification for negative feedback based on the assumption that "that seller KNOWS it's trimmed, he was TOLD it's trimmed. and is trying to sell it without disclosing that anyways, the dirty rat!"...except that assumption cannot be proven and, in fact, the seller has stated his disagreement with that analysis.

 

And in that regard, it's not about what the buyer, or anyone else, thinks is reasonable...it's only about what the seller thinks is reasonable. If the seller is lying, and believes the book has a problem, but disregards it anyways, that is on him. But unless you can prove that he believes otherwise, the charge of deliberate deception cannot be made.

 

The point is, no one else can come along and say "I think you're lying. I think you really believe the book is trimmed, and are hiding that fact to rip someone off" without further evidence.

 

And that evidence is not forthcoming. The seller has hundreds of positives in a month, and one in a year (not that that is proof, it is only evidence in the seller's favor.) The seller said the book was purchased in a lot when it wasn't worth much, and wouldn't be worth trimming (again...not proof...just evidence.) The seller gave a full refund to the buyer, and I suspect substantially AFTER the 14 day return period that the seller offers (again...not proof, and this can work against the seller, too, but it's evidence nonetheless.) The buyer, and several people in the PGM thread, failed to detect trimming (not proof...just evidence.)

 

CGC gave their opinion. The seller disagreed. There is no further evidence of deliberate deception on the seller's part at this time.

[ChrisInBaltimore]

I'm learning a lot about people's integrity here

[skypinkblu]

I think the OP did the right thing by removing the neg....and also believe he did the right thing by bringing this to our attention. Probably the only reason I've posted as much in this thread as I have is that several posters seem to have this expectation for the entire marketplace to play by their rules....this WON'T be happening. Bottom line..... and it's been said before, if you want a Blue Label......BUY a Blue Label. Anything that goes awry outside of that scenario is a result of your own gamble. It's best to learn this sooner than later.GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

I applaud the buyer as well, he seems very reasonable. Sometimes these things can go on and on and on and there is no right answer.

 

For example, I bought a book about a year ago that was on a PGM thread. Someone suggested the staples were replaced. The owner at that time agreed (he's a very good grader) ...I saw the pictures and I agreed, and I bought it knowing that. I got the book home and I thought the staples were replaced. They looked new, smaller than most GA staples different from my other copy (I had a raggedy one) and the prongs looked like they had been opened. BTW, these were 60+ year old staples.

 

I sent it to CGC, ONLY because I had my collector's coupon and I needed another book to send quickly, so I grabbed this one..

 

I just got a notice yesterday that it's a fairly high grade, blue label, no mention of the staples

 

Now I planned, and plan, to keep the book, I have all but one of the books in the series...but what if I decide to sell it down the road ? Do I disclose that several graders who know what they are doing thought the staples were replaced even though CGC did not mention it?

 

Truthfully, I'd probably stick a note on it so I remember to mention it because otherwise it would haunt me, but I was just bringing it up because it just happened, and kind of breaks the mold of all the CGC "said" posts.

 

BTW, for those of you who keep calling this Strange Tales book restored, I believe the correct term is "damaged" Trimming is considered damage unless something changed.

[koollectablz]

I'm learning a lot about people's integrity here

 

IMO people who consistently bang on about how much integrity they have.

 

Tend to have none.

[wombat]

 

But we're not talking about whether or not the book is *actually* trimmed

 

I actually kind of agree with this. But probably not the way you are talking about it. Trimmed or not we know that CGC thinks it was. We also know that there is a chance anyone buying that book will have it graded. So selling it without mentioning anything is setting the buyer up for a potential issue. Personally I don't think a good seller should do that.

 

I asked a question I don't think was answered. For those that would sell this book without making any mention of the potential trim would you respond in any way if the buyer mentioned he would be submitting it to CGC for grading?

 

[koollectablz]

 

But we're not talking about whether or not the book is *actually* trimmed

 

I actually kind of agree with this. But probably not the way you are talking about it. Trimmed or not we know that CGC thinks it was. We also know that there is a chance anyone buying that book will have it graded. So selling it without mentioning anything is setting the buyer up for a potential issue. Personally I don't think a good seller should do that.

 

I asked a question I don't think was answered. For those that would sell this book without making any mention of the potential trim would you respond in any way if the buyer mentioned he would be submitting it to CGC for grading?

 

Answered post #8495572

[wombat]

 

But we're not talking about whether or not the book is *actually* trimmed

 

I actually kind of agree with this. But probably not the way you are talking about it. Trimmed or not we know that CGC thinks it was. We also know that there is a chance anyone buying that book will have it graded. So selling it without mentioning anything is setting the buyer up for a potential issue. Personally I don't think a good seller should do that.

 

I asked a question I don't think was answered. For those that would sell this book without making any mention of the potential trim would you respond in any way if the buyer mentioned he would be submitting it to CGC for grading?

 

Answered post #8495572

 

Sorry. Missed that. Definitely not how I would want to be treated as a buyer.

[jimjum12]

I think the OP did the right thing by removing the neg....and also believe he did the right thing by bringing this to our attention. Probably the only reason I've posted as much in this thread as I have is that several posters seem to have this expectation for the entire marketplace to play by their rules....this WON'T be happening. Bottom line..... and it's been said before, if you want a Blue Label......BUY a Blue Label. Anything that goes awry outside of that scenario is a result of your own gamble. It's best to learn this sooner than later.GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

I applaud the buyer as well, he seems very reasonable. Sometimes these things can go on and on and on and there is no right answer.

 

For example, I bought a book about a year ago that was on a PGM thread. Someone suggested the staples were replaced. The owner at that time agreed (he's a very good grader) ...I saw the pictures and I agreed, and I bought it knowing that. I got the book home and I thought the staples were replaced. They looked new, smaller than most GA staples different from my other copy (I had a raggedy one) and the prongs looked like they had been opened. BTW, these were 60+ year old staples.

 

I sent it to CGC, ONLY because I had my collector's coupon and I needed another book to send quickly, so I grabbed this one..

 

I just got a notice yesterday that it's a fairly high grade, blue label, no mention of the staples

 

Now I planned, and plan, to keep the book, I have all but one of the books in the series...but what if I decide to sell it down the road ? Do I disclose that several graders who know what they are doing thought the staples were replaced even though CGC did not mention it?

 

Truthfully, I'd probably stick a note on it so I remember to mention it because otherwise it would haunt me, but I was just bringing it up because it just happened, and kind of breaks the mold of all the CGC "said" posts.

 

BTW, for those of you who keep calling this Strange Tales book restored, I believe the correct term is "damaged" Trimming is considered damage unless something changed.

 

...if it's going to bother you to not disclose, then of course you should. It's still a blue label, so it will likely still appeal to most buyers. If the book is a war time book, when metal was being rationed, the Printer may have just used whatever staples were available.....smaller and cheaper ones would have been a logical substitution....but that's just speculation on my part. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[koollectablz]

Staples trimmed.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Here's the problem with CGC being "the final word": mostly, it's not a problem, but occasionally, CGC blows it.

 

For example...does a detached bottom centerfold staple belong in a blue 8.5 label? I don't think so at all. That's a pretty severe flaw, and I should think no more than 7.0 for that flaw.

 

But CGC said it was 8.5. Did they miss it? Did they see it, and conclude that the book was otherwise nice enough? (the answer for this particular book is "no.")

 

So, what I tell my customers is this: the market has decided that what CGC says, and only what CGC says, is what matters. Not a problem. But it works all ways. If one is going to be consistent, why would they have to "reveal" that they thought CGC got something wrong?

 

After all, it doesn't work in reverse. If CGC hammers a particular book, and it got a, say, 6.5, and it *should* have been an 8.0, and everyone who sees it thinks it should be an 8.0, and everyone who saw it raw thought it should be around an 8.0, does that matter to the market?

 

Not one bit.

 

So, if my word doesn't matter when I think CGC has undergraded an item, to be consistent, it shouldn't matter when I think CGC has overgraded an item.

 

That market decided that that's what it wants. That's what the market gets.

 

The antidote to that admittedly fairly mercenary position is simple: buy the book, not the label. As true now as it ever was. Consider CGC the way CGC considers CGC: an opinion to take into account before making a decision. A strong opinion, an educated opinion, but still, just an opinion. And that opinion should never, ever, ever supplant and replace yours. Your opinion is the single most important part of the process, but far too many people have abdicated that position, and abrogated their ability to form an opinion, and they are forced to rely solely on CGC's opinion...and that's where problems can happen.

 

Then, and only then, will the market be a more realistic place to transact business...but I don't see that ever happening.

[skypinkblu]

I think the OP did the right thing by removing the neg....and also believe he did the right thing by bringing this to our attention. Probably the only reason I've posted as much in this thread as I have is that several posters seem to have this expectation for the entire marketplace to play by their rules....this WON'T be happening. Bottom line..... and it's been said before, if you want a Blue Label......BUY a Blue Label. Anything that goes awry outside of that scenario is a result of your own gamble. It's best to learn this sooner than later.GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

I applaud the buyer as well, he seems very reasonable. Sometimes these things can go on and on and on and there is no right answer.

 

For example, I bought a book about a year ago that was on a PGM thread. Someone suggested the staples were replaced. The owner at that time agreed (he's a very good grader) ...I saw the pictures and I agreed, and I bought it knowing that. I got the book home and I thought the staples were replaced. They looked new, smaller than most GA staples different from my other copy (I had a raggedy one) and the prongs looked like they had been opened. BTW, these were 60+ year old staples.

 

I sent it to CGC, ONLY because I had my collector's coupon and I needed another book to send quickly, so I grabbed this one..

 

I just got a notice yesterday that it's a fairly high grade, blue label, no mention of the staples

 

Now I planned, and plan, to keep the book, I have all but one of the books in the series...but what if I decide to sell it down the road ? Do I disclose that several graders who know what they are doing thought the staples were replaced even though CGC did not mention it?

 

Truthfully, I'd probably stick a note on it so I remember to mention it because otherwise it would haunt me, but I was just bringing it up because it just happened, and kind of breaks the mold of all the CGC "said" posts.

 

BTW, for those of you who keep calling this Strange Tales book restored, I believe the correct term is "damaged" Trimming is considered damage unless something changed.

 

...if it's going to bother you to not disclose, then of course you should. It's still a blue label, so it will likely still appeal to most buyers. If the book is a war time book, when metal was being rationed, the Printer may have just used whatever staples were available.....smaller and cheaper ones would have been a logical substitution....but that's just speculation on my part. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

I think whomever I leave it to will probably be selling it, however...I agree with you on the wartime staples, but not two different sets on the same issue...at least it would not be usual.

[cousin itt]

RMA - first, I apologize for my tone. I will try to dial it back.

 

Second, I think the source of confusion here, and this is just a guess, is that you interpret the word "caught" to only mean "deliberately caught", as in setting a trap. That's not how I'm using it. I'm using it in the "to discover unexpectedly" sense. If you are interpreting it the other way, then I can see how you interpreted my statement as you did. That's why I thought you were using a strawman - I never said anything about laying any kind of trap for the seller, and was baffled as to why you were arguing about that.

 

Also, your "proof" (I guess that's what that was) that no one can be "caught" hiding trimming... that just makes no sense to me at all. Of course someone can be caught - the seller in this case was caught. They can be caught accidentally or deliberately. But my statement is primarily about the unexpected kind of "caught". E.g., a buyer buys a book, then finds out the seller knowingly withheld the fact that cgc has said the book was trimmed. So, the buyer gets angry and negs the seller. That's what my statement is about. It sounds like you are arguing it wouldn't be possible for the seller to be caught in that case because it would be bad faith on the part of the buyer to find out? I don't agree that it would be bad faith, but even if it was, that doesn't mean it wouldn't happen.

 

And, just so we're clear, because this keeps cropping up, we're not talking about what's going on in the seller's mind. (E.g., does he really "believe" that the book is trimmed or untrimmed.) No one can prove what's going on in his mind. But we don't have to. We are talking about the fact that we know the seller was told the book had been deemed to be trimmed by cgc, and is still selling that book without disclosing that fact to potential buyers (unless they specifically ask about it.) If he truly thinks cgc is wrong, he doesn't need to say the book IS trimmed, he just needs to say that cgc says the book is trimmed - that is, if he doesn't want to get negged by a disgruntled buyer down the line.

 

I will amend my statement, and I don't see how this can be controversial, but it probably will be:

 

"If you don't want to get a negative, do not hide from potential buyers the fact that cgc says the book you are selling is trimmed."

 

As far as "reasonable objection" goes, or the claim that he has given a good excuse for non-disclosure: again, we are talking about the fact that cgc said the book is trimmed. There is no reasonable objection to that, no reason to disbelieve that. I called cgc and verified it. The seller could do the same if he really didn't believe cgc had said the book was trimmed.

 

Finally, you seem to feel the need to remind me that the seller didn't do anything wrong before he knew that cgc had said the book was trimmed. No one disputes that. That's not what's being argued at all. I can only guess that you are brought that up to try to say that the buyer had no right to neg because the "alleged" wrongdoing occurred after the buyer's transaction. Let's assume for the sake of argument I agree with you - it doesn't change anything. My statement is simply that a seller is going to get negs if he hides these kind of extremely pertinent details from buyers. Sure, some of those negs may be out of line, but it doesn't mean they won't happen.

 

 

[cousin itt]

And in that regard, it's not about what the buyer, or anyone else, thinks is reasonable...it's only about what the seller thinks is reasonable. If the seller is lying, and believes the book has a problem, but disregards it anyways, that is on him. But unless you can prove that he believes otherwise, the charge of deliberate deception cannot be made.

 

The point is, no one else can come along and say "I think you're lying. I think you really believe the book is trimmed, and are hiding that fact to rip someone off" without further evidence.

 

It depends on whether or not you consider failing to disclose that cgc says it was trimmed as deception. It is certainly withholding pertinent information that the seller must know the buyer would want to know. Does the rise to the level of deception? I guess that depends on your own personal definition.