Double Action Comics #2 Revisited

[markseifert]

The Action ashcan has the interior to Detective 1 and the rejected cover art to Detective 2. This was well over a year before Action 1 was actually published and sold. So clearly Action Comics was something on Donenfeld's radar screen long before it saw print and his ashcan protected it. One account of the Action Comics ashcan has Donenfeld ordering Action Comics, Double Action Comics and Triple Action Comics. No Triple Action has ever surfaced either.

 

So Gary's recent comment on this subject made me wonder about a few things...

 

The database shows that the Action Comics trademark was first used 12/1/1937, so presumably that's the date of the ashcan, and that fits with the generally accepted history that Donenfeld & Liebowitz's plan for Action took shape that month.

 

Far as I can tell, (though I'm going to check through the books for another year or two), DC did not register Double Action or Triple Action or even attempt to publish either of them for opposition. That's a little interesting, because most of these achcans track with a corresponding registration (or published for opposition attempt). There's at least one notable exception, but we know the reasons for it, pretty much (Fawcett Flash). I mean, that's why you do an ashcan, right? Because you want to get the paperwork on the record.

 

But Fawcett's naming woes are probably the clue here, it turns out.

 

Louis Silberkeit published pulps and magazines under at least a couple different corporate names in his pre-MLJ days, but he used two different brands that are important to us here: Double Action Magazines, and Blue Ribbon Magazines.

 

And a little tangent here -- this was a small world at this point. All these guys knew each other pretty well. Silberkeit and DC "silent partner" Paul Sampliner started out at the same Hearst newspaper. Silberkeit later worked for Sampliner at Eastern.

 

So: when MLJ started using one of Silberkeit's established pulp brands in comics -- Blue Ribbon Comics launched cover-dated Nov '39 -- DC probably saw that as shots fired. MLJ's likely next move was probably obvious.

 

MLJ probably wanted to follow Blue Ribbon with Double Action, and DC knew that but also knew they were in tight spot. This is likely just 4-6 weeks after Ned Pines backed Fawcett off of Thrill (the big picture there is that Pines thought he owned Thrilling as a cover-all brand through an extensive pulp line), so both DC and MLJ probably saw a fight coming.

 

Here's where we get into pure speculation: Why is Double Action #2 (Jan 1940 cover date, fitting our timeline here) the only color-cover ashcan? Based on what I'm seeing here, I think the possibility that they actually tried to do a test distro somewhere is near zero. But here's a good possibility -- DC wanted to show MLJ they were serious about using this mark -- maybe even wanted them to think they WERE using it (hence color cover, and perhaps two issues to show MLJ).

 

However that did actually play out, through the lens of history it looks like the two publishers reached an uneasy accord. DC did not register the trademark or attempt to use it, and MLJ did not use it ON published comics either.

 

BUT! A couple months later, MLJ did start representing themselves for advertising purposes as... The Double Action Comics Group. They protected the mark but didn't use it as a brand on published comics. Checkmate.

 

Obviously some speculation there, but the verifiable data fits together pretty well (honestly, I think it's at least as supportable as the Fawcett/Pines Thrilling situation).

 

An interesting little footnote to this: Archie attempted to revive the Double Action Comics trademark in 2010. Given that the Silberkeit family has been involved with the company through its entire lifespan, one wonders if someone there still remembers how this all played out.

 

[comicparadox]

Speculation from informed history such as this is the best reason I know to read the CGC boards. Thanks for your very interesting hypothesis.

[eman13]

An interesting hypothesis. The obscurity and bizarre nature of Double Action Comics #2 fits within this nicely. Very cool!

[RareHighGrade]

 

I think the possibility that they actually tried to do a test distro somewhere is near zero.

 

There is evidence that it was distributed, at least sparsely. A couple of the copies that are in beat up condition were not from a DC or other ashcan source

[markseifert]

I think the possibility that they actually tried to do a test distro somewhere is near zero.

 

There is evidence that it was distributed, at least sparsely. A couple of the copies that are in beat up condition were not from a DC or other ashcan source

 

Well... (as always devil's advocate)

 

Almost every other bit of info in the Overstreet listing has been debunked (contains original stories, all known copies high grade. edit -- clarifications on Overstreet's info provided by Rip downthread), or is widely disbelieved (Ashcan of #1 exists). At this point, you'd like to hear something credible about the provenance of the existing copies before giving it much weight. Taken as a whole, the grapevine info that's out there about the known copies is not reliable.

 

That aside, if it's a test (a test of the viability of black and white, or the continued viability of non-superhero material), I don't know why you'd risk confusion with one of your marquee brands to do that test.

 

If this test had succeeded, is it because kids still love black and white, or is it because the actual Action Comics is one of the hottest comic books in the history of history? You have no idea what you've learned from that test, aside from the fact that you could fool kids once.

 

If this test had succeeded, would they have gone forward with Double Action Comics as a black and white comic which does not contain Superman, creating widespread confusion with their insanely valuable other Action Comics with pretty much the same logo but which is in color and does contain Superman? That doesn't pass the smell test.

[esquirecomics]

One of the holy grails of my collection!

 

[markseifert]

One of the holy grails of my collection!

 

 

Yep, awesome.

 

Do you know the provenance of that copy, Mark?

[woowoo]

One of the holy grails of my collection!

 

 

This is as close as i got.

[esquirecomics]

One of the holy grails of my collection!

 

 

Yep, awesome.

 

Do you know the provenance of that copy, Mark?

 

Just some. I bought it from Heritage, and it was Steve Geppi's copy that had previously been in his museum. I'd have to ask Steve where he got it from.

[Moondog]

I think it's fascinating that at the same time that DC publishes Detective Comics (on the stands 1/37) they decide to create an Action Comics ashcan using cover art originally slated for Detective 2 and the interior of Detective 1. Then they don't publish Action for another 14 months. This corroborates Michael Uslan's claim that Donenfeld was waiting for just the right lead for Action.

 

Nice work, Mark.

[Et-Es-Go]

I can fill in some blanks on this book. I purchased it back 1999 from EBay. It was sold by a coin collector/seller. He got it in lieu of cash from some guy that owed him money. This is what my research turned up.

 

I have no dates for this story but perhaps some folks can add more if they recognize any of this. The book does seem to be one of those that was out loose in the wild. It came from an original owner collection. Parts of this are fuzzy and may be two different tales of the same collection of books. The original collector had passed in either case. Version one is someone broke into the garage where the books were stored and took a number of them. Version two is a passerby literally pulled this book and a number of others from the curbside trash. Boston area if I recall

 

How many owners has the book had since? Sometime in its lifetime some rice paper conservation was done to the spine and staple. It was easy to get confirmation that Bill Sarill did the work. Harley bought the book from me with a buyer on the east coast. My guess is he sold it to Geppi. Coin guy had it for several years kicking around in the vault and just decided to get rid of it one day. I don't recall how long he had it.

 

So this one is a true copy found in the wild and not out of the DC offices. Somehow this book was distributed to a very small demographic to it was some kind of giveaway. There are a few other wild copies out there, and most are well loved. All of the wild ones appear to have come from the east coast

 

There is an old thread on the boards here where I provided all the detail I had. When I owned the book I scanned every page and posted those online for people to view. I gave the comic book museum the scans but I don't know that they ever posted them for fear of DC giving them trouble.

 

 

[Rip]

I think the possibility that they actually tried to do a test distro somewhere is near zero.

 

There is evidence that it was distributed, at least sparsely. A couple of the copies that are in beat up condition were not from a DC or other ashcan source

 

Well... (as always devil's advocate)

 

Almost every other bit of info in the Overstreet listing has been debunked (contains original stories, all known copies high grade), or is widely disbelieved (Ashcan of #1 exists). At this point, you'd like to hear something credible about the provenance of the existing copies before giving it much weight. Taken as a whole, the grapevine info that's out there about the known copies is not reliable.

 

That aside, if it's a test (a test of the viability of black and white, or the continued viability of non-superhero material), I don't know why you'd risk confusion with one of your marquee brands to do that test.

 

If this test had succeeded, is it because kids still love black and white, or is it because the actual Action Comics is one of the hottest comic books in the history of history? You have no idea what you've learned from that test, aside from the fact that you could fool kids once.

 

If this test had succeeded, would they have gone forward with Double Action Comics as a black and white comic which does not contain Superman, creating widespread confusion with their insanely valuable other Action Comics with pretty much the same logo but which is in color and does contain Superman? That doesn't pass the smell test.

 

I've always wondered the source of Overstreet's information about Double Action 1,2 and the details about the finding. Overstreet doesn't say all copies are high grade, he mentions that with the finding of the only known Double Action 1.

He talks about four copies being found in 1979 plus one copy of DA1 all found (included) together, and makes a note about it.

He mentions that 3 were in NM and 1 in G/VG. And a previously found copy turned up in 1977 was VG and sold in 79 for $1500.

The listing mentions Double Action 1 (only known copy) had a B&W cover, contains a coverless comic on the inside with 1st and last page missing and saddle stitched.

 

He also puts a question mark like this "original stories(?)" under Double Action 2.

Further he also mentions the prices of the 3 NM copies sold at 2K each, 1 resold for 3K, and the G/VG sold for $1500.

 

In the 2006 guide he mentions only a total of 7 copies, 5 in high grade, later lowering that number to 4 in high grade.

 

Interesting to look on the CGC census and compare:

2 9.2

1 9.0 (Qualified)

1 5.5 restored

1 3.0

1 .5

 

I know there are more raw copies but I can't remember how many I've personally seen. Also from my understanding the Double Action Comics 1 cover has artwork from the New Adventure Comics/Adventure Comics run.

 

Edit: Also See here:

http://cgcforum.gpanalysis.com/cgcforum_thread.asp?pagenumber=7&ThreadID=2091127&forumID=15&threadName=double+action+comics+%231

 

"Originally Posted By: TomG"

I am here to clear up a few details regarding Double Action Comics #1.

 

Double Action Comics #1 does exist and has been confirmed by both Bob Overstreet and John Snyder.

The current whereabouts of this ashcan comic are unknown. While currently we were not able to locate the specific cover art I can confirm that the artwork is from the New Adventure Comics/Adventure Comics run.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[markseifert]

I've always wondered the source of Overstreet's information about Double Action 1,2 and the details about the finding. Overstreet doesn't say all copies are high grade, he mentions that with the finding of the only known Double Action 1.

He talks about four copies being found in 1979 plus one copy of DA1 all found together, and makes a note about it.

He mentions that 3 were in NM and 1 in G/VG. And a previously found copy turned up in 1977 was VG and sold in 79 for $1500.

The listing mentions Double Action 1 (only known copy) had a B&W cover, contains a coverless comic on the inside with 1st and last page missing and saddle stitched.

 

He also puts a question mark like this "original stories(?)" under Double Action 2.

Further he also mentions the prices of the 3 NM copies sold at 2K each, 1 resold for 3K, and the G/VG sold for $1500.

 

 

Thank you.

 

Much of that info is not in the listing in the Overstreet I grabbed to look at. The '77 and '79 notes are particularly interesting.

 

In a previous thread on the subject, a board member states that at one point Overstreet says there's 2 known copies of Double Action #1. Can anybody confirm/refute that?

 

****

 

I guess the thing that makes me a little skeptical is that much of this tracks with the way the MPFW discovery played out. No sign of it before 1976-79 or so, but after the discovery there's reports of a copy surfacing in Boston (in both cases) and so on. This is not to discredit anyone's account or anything like that, and every collecting culture is fueled by private and semi-private info, for lots of good reasons, and that always makes stuff like this hard.

 

But I know for certain that the MPFW discovery changed peoples memories of events they lived through, and that kind of thing always gives me pause.

 

****

 

Some other thoughts on this --

** No DC logo on the cover. That's interesting.

** Mix of DC and All American content at this early date. Very interesting.

** Indicia is standard for the time except for the notable lack of the usual postal regs boilerplate.

** As many have noted over the years, the interior printing is incredibly shoddy in spots, even by the standards of the day. Skewed pages.

 

 

 

[Rip]

I've always wondered the source of Overstreet's information about Double Action 1,2 and the details about the finding. Overstreet doesn't say all copies are high grade, he mentions that with the finding of the only known Double Action 1.

He talks about four copies being found in 1979 plus one copy of DA1 all found together, and makes a note about it.

He mentions that 3 were in NM and 1 in G/VG. And a previously found copy turned up in 1977 was VG and sold in 79 for $1500.

The listing mentions Double Action 1 (only known copy) had a B&W cover, contains a coverless comic on the inside with 1st and last page missing and saddle stitched.

 

He also puts a question mark like this "original stories(?)" under Double Action 2.

Further he also mentions the prices of the 3 NM copies sold at 2K each, 1 resold for 3K, and the G/VG sold for $1500.

 

 

Thank you.

 

Much of that info is not in the listing in the Overstreet I grabbed to look at. The '77 and '79 notes are particularly interesting.

 

In a previous thread on the subject, a board member states that at one point Overstreet says there's 2 known copies of Double Action #1. Can anybody confirm/refute that?

 

****

 

I guess the thing that makes me a little skeptical is that much of this tracks with the way the MPFW discovery played out. No sign of it before 1976-79 or so, but after the discovery there's reports of a copy surfacing in Boston (in both cases) and so on. This is not to discredit anyone's account or anything like that, and every collecting culture is fueled by private and semi-private info, for lots of good reasons, and that always makes stuff like this hard.

 

But I know for certain that the MPFW discovery changed peoples memories of events they lived through, and that kind of thing always gives me pause.

 

****

 

Some other thoughts on this --

** No DC logo on the cover. That's interesting.

** Mix of DC and All American content at this early date. Very interesting.

** Indicia is standard for the time except for the notable lack of the usual postal regs boilerplate.

** As many have noted over the years, the interior printing is incredibly shoddy in spots, even by the standards of the day. Skewed pages.

 

 

 

I agree sometimes things get mixed up no doubt. I don't know of Overstreet saying two copies. I'll have to paw through my Overstreets but I can't seem to find anything supporting that. I believe the following year (or year after) he removed the Double Action 1 from the Overstreet Price Guide.

 

Edit I just saw what you were talking about. It's a more recent Overstreet entry clearly talking about Double Action 2

"Two copies exist in fair & fine condition proving at least limited newsstand distribution" That's a reference to the limited newsstand distribution debate and why its not an Ashcan.

[Ameri]

One from the wild

 

[markseifert]

Rip -- if you happen to have your guides handy... do you know when the Overstreet copy estimate jumped from 5 copies (4 from a single source plus the previously-discovered copy) to 7 copies?

 

That aside, as far as information flow goes, to beat a dead horse, a quick google gives us:

 

1980 [Overstreet]: 5 copies of #2 known, #1 ashcan known. Wikipedia states, "Distributed only in New York City newsstands," which also seems to be sourced from Overstreet but I can't easily verify that just now.

 

1987 [Overstreet]: An Overstreet top 10 list promoting that year's guide apparently hit the newswires this year. The story that hit the Chicago Tribune states, "Never sold on newsstands, only five copies are known to exist." Double Action Comics #2 is the 9th most valuable comic on Overstreet's top 10 this year, according to the Trib... edging out Cap #1!

 

1996 [Metropolis]: Stephen Fishler writes a letter for collector Daniel Kylberg documenting the provenance of the copy he is selling to Kylberg as being from DC Editor Sol Harrison. Fishler believes only 4 copies exist, and that there was no #1. He also says "The book was test marketed at newsstands in Connecticut only."

 

2003 [forum member Rarehighgrade] At least one copy has been located that was apparently bought off the newsstands and was not part of the original group that was discovered. That copy is in VG condition and was sold on ebay in 1999. I don't know what it sold for. Finally, it is rumored that of the original 6 books that were found, only two were complete books, while the others were just cover sheets. One book that was on the market a few years ago appeared to have have had its original cover replaced with a high grade cover sheet. I saw the book and it was apparent that the cover had been added because it did not fit the book properly.

 

2004 [ forum member Ian Levine] Ian states he believes there are about 11 copies, and that "Rich Muchin was very certain of his facts that it was a tryout on the east coast only. I have heard this from many other independant sources also. It was limited to cities in the tri-State area."

 

Now, this is the same thread where the Double Action 1 mock-up scan surfaced, and Ian was pretty convinced that the image itself was legit. With respect to everyone involved, I don't think anyone believes that now (and honestly, it always looked like a photoshop job imo). This 2004 period is where sort of an "expanded" view of the situation took hold, with the idea of about 7-11 copies being in existence and more generalized northeast test distribution, which has been repeated fairly often since. But if you go back and look at it, there's just not much credible info there (again, with respect to the participants).

 

2008: Lots of discussion about ALL copies being "hand assembled" due to a stance Heritage took when auctioning off a couple copies. I don't think anything substantive came from this, except if that's true, it does imply a VERY small number of copies, I think. Even a test in one city would seem to imply several hundred copies at the least. I'm not sure you'd "hand assemble" more than "a few" copies.

 

****

One thing that has never really been addressed as far as I can see, is if at least 2 and perhaps more of known copies were created by marrying file covers to existing interiors, where did the interiors come from? (presuming they are the correct interiors)

 

 

 

 

[Et-Es-Go]

Please share the back story on you 0.5 copy if you have any information. Thanks for posting.

[Ameri]

Please share the back story on you 0.5 copy if you have any information. Thanks for posting.

 

I don't know much about the .5 except that it was in Australia when I purchased it. It was sold through Australian Ebay to an Australian collector and I got it from him. The Australian collector told me at the time it's one of the few copies that made it to the newsstand.

[Rip]

The 2004 price guide lists 7, I have some gaps, but I'll keep looking. Some of my guides have fallen apart.

One thing though I don't like about the guide though, is that its not very good about keeping track of "total copies" and sometimes conflicts with itself. For example in the 1983 guide, it claims "only three known copies" of Double Action 2.

 

[markseifert]

The 2004 price guide lists 7,

 

That fits.

 

So, there were 5 copies, then 2 cover proofs emerged, and then (at some time subsequently) there were 7 copies. I'd presume we can draw the obvious conclusion there.

 

It seems one of the "hand assembled" copies has the wrong interiors? I'm not sure about the other one.

 

Arguably, that could mean zero additional copies have publicly emerged since 1979.

 

4 copies with provenance presumably known to Overstreet (1979)

1 copy of completely unknown provenance (1977)

2 copies "hand assembled" from cover proofs sometime after 1996.

 

Presumably, only the single "completely unknown" copy could have been a newsstand copy.

 

and 6 copies on the census. Perhaps Rarehighgrade or Ian has the unslabbed copy. If both have unslabbed copies, that would potentially take the count to 8 (Fishler did say 8 sometime around 2005-07)

 

Also: So, based on the idea that they checked the 2004 #1 mockup with Overstreet and John Snyder, is the implication here that this was originally Snyder's discovery?