Hall of Shame and Probation Rules DISCUSSION
6 6

428 posts in this topic

This thread was created for discussions regarding the Probation guidelines and the modifying or clarification thereof. It is intended to free up the Probation nomination thread for the nomination processes only..... as it was intended. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Moving some of my prior comments from the other thread over here:

 

I think this conversation is a lesson that as a seller, one should have a clearly stated return policy in their sales thread rules. Leaving the return policy unstated opens things up to this sort of debate...as we have discussed before, there are no such things as "normal rules" in a sales thread. You must be clear.

 

Also, I need to heed my own advice. I've gotten into the habit of stating my sales thread return policy like "I will accept returns for a full refund, no questions asked, within a reasonable time period."

 

I think I now need to state a specific time period for the return window, because "reasonable" is subject to debate...apparently including a lifetime. Of course, if I state a specific time period, nothing would prevent me from going beyond that time period on a case-by-case basis...but being specific would seem to provide some clarity around whether someone could pursue a PL nomination, etc...

 

You all continue to convolute two separate issues. We should not be discussing a mandatory return/refund period...that should be left to each individual seller in his/her individual sales threads. If I want to start a sales thread with an "as-is no return" policy, I should be free to do so, and you should be free to not buy the books in that thread if you don't like it.

 

What we need to stay focused on is the PL statute of limitations discussion...i.e., how long does someone have to initiate a PL claim on a failed transaction. That's a different question, and (I thought) that's the issue that's on the table.

 

In my view, the reason this has become convoluted is that the seller didn't specify a return period.

 

So, that leaves us debating what a reasonable return period should be when one is not specified. That is yet another separate discussion...but that discussion certainly does not suggest that there "should" be a mandatory policy, in general.

 

This is what we're saying now? The buyers are backed by the power of the PL and are entitled to refunds for years after purchase? Really?

 

I'm confused again. Please tell me that we are limiting our debate to situations where the seller didn't explicitly specify a return policy...it is only in that case where we have to debate what is "reasonable," right?

 

In other words, do we agree that if (1) a seller states a return policy, (2) a buyer buys a book under those stated terms, (3) seller delivers the agreed upon book to the buyer, and (4) the buyer, for whatever reason, does not return the book for a refund within that stated return window, then there is no entitlement to a refund, and no basis for a PL nomination. Right?

 

So a return policy can trump a guarantee. Never thought about it like that.

Could be. The devil is in the details. This sort of confusion is why terms of sale out there in the real world are paragraphs long in 2 pt. font. :D If you're a seller and you don't spell out the details, look out.

 

If a seller says "as-is, no returns"...then there is a zero-day return policy and no guarantees.

 

If a seller says "you can return the book for any reason within 30 days, or within 6 months for undisclosed restoration", then that's pretty clear, right?

 

If a seller says "you can return the book for any reason within 6 months", that's yet another clear policy.

 

I could keep going with this, but you get the point. Seller has the opportunity to set terms. If the seller wants a higher likelihood of selling a book, they'll offer more liberal terms. If a buyer isn't comfortable with whatever the terms are, don't buy, or try to negotiate the terms just like you do with price.

 

Where we wind up with issues is when the seller doesn't set clear terms and something goes bad....and, lack of clarity can arise unintentionally. In your example, if a seller says "I guarantee no restoration, and you can return the book within 30 days," I'm not sure what that means. Is it a 30 day return policy for any reason with a lifetime guarantee against restoration, or a 30-day return policy including restoration issues? It's that word guarantee that's tricky. Does it mean the same thing to say "as far as I know the book is unrestored, and you can return the book within 30 days?" Use your language carefully, sellers!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Unlike other damage to comics let's not forget that restoration is something that is done intentionally. While it seems fair to give everyone the benefit of the doubt I think we need to be very careful about absolving the seller of a restored comic of responsibility for the harm inflicted on the buyer when the restoration has not been disclosed.

 

Given what any of us would think of someone who intentionally failed to disclose restoration I think that an honest seller would be upset about unknowingly passing on a restored comic and would not want anyone to think otherwise. Anyone who finds out that they missed restoration on a book they sold and would tell their customer "sorry the limit on returns is 30 days as I said in my sales thread if only you had mentioned it yesterday I would have given you your money back but you are too late" is not a seller I would want to buy books from.

 

Restoration and the damage it can do to this hobby and the reputation of those involved is not something that should be taken lightly. Look at what forged signatures have done to the sports collectible industry and consider if letting the seller dictate their return policy is more important than protecting buyers from fraudulent purchases.

 

While this forum does not charge buyers or sellers for the opportunity to trade books here I would think that we should expect participants on this forum to a higher standard of behavior than other websites. A wide range of books are bought and sold here by participants that range from noobs to experts but that does not mean that we should accept the lowest common denominator and allow a window of opportunity for fraud.

 

If you don't want to take any responsibility for what you are selling, just post "as is" in your listing or better yet have a garage sale to sell your crappy books. The idea that it is none of the buyer's business whether a book has been restored unless they ask the seller is ridiculous. It opens the door for sellers to treat buyers horribly and forces buyers to waste an inordinate amount of a seller's time just to make sure that they are getting anything close to what they are paying for.

 

I think we can do better than that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just as a start, it looks like the following are a couple of topics for changes to the PL/HOS Rules. Please add more rules and discussion.

 

1) How long after a completed transaction can a request for a return/refund or a partial refund be made?

 

2) If a return policy is not stated is there an "assumed" return period?

 

3) if no return policy is stated and the seller counters a return request with "I stated no returns", what conditions can override that?

 

4) Restoration: do we assume a book is unrestored unless stated otherwise? Is it a requirement of the seller to reveal known restoration or must we ask the seller?

 

 

1 + 2) For what reason? When I'm a seller, I allow returns for any reason whatsoever within a reasonable timeframe - if someone has buyer's remorse over a purchase they made from me, well, that's unfortunate, but I'm not going to give them any hassle about returning the item. I consider this part of the cost of doing business.

 

When I'm buying, however, I don't automatically assume every seller out there has the same return policy that I do, nor do I feel it's our job to enforce a standard returns policy across the board. If I'm buying a raw book from someone who actually does this for a living - let's say Dale Roberts, Bob Storms or Foolkiller - I have a personal expectation that if there is an issue, they will do whatever they can (within reason) to make things right. Knowing this means I'm automatically more comfortable dropping 3 or 4-figures on a raw book from them.

 

But do I have the same expectations from some newbie with 5 posts who's treating this place like his own personal Craigslist? Heck no.

 

There needs to be some responsibility on the buyer side here as well - if you want to gamble on a deal that looks too good to be true, don't come crying back to the boards when it turns that it was, in fact, too good to be true.

 

3) The seller shipped the wrong book or didn't ship at all. This isn't eBay - if a seller states "no returns", the buyer should assume whatever they're buying is sold "as is". If they're not comfortable with taking that chance, buy from someone else - if enough buyers decide to take their business elsewhere, I'm sure the seller will rethink his/her return policy.

 

4) Considering there are plenty of sellers here who wouldn't be able to detect restoration if it colorbled on their face, I think it's highly optimistic to automatically assume a book is resto-free just because a seller doesn't mention anything. I would expect any seller here to mention any resto of which they're aware, but the truth of the matter is that if you want a higher chance of getting a non-restored book, buy one that's already slabbed or, again, buy from someone who knows what they're doing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Found these books in my attic! Please feel free to ask any questions! NOTHING IS IMPLIED.

 

We have had many new people show up to sell collections with no prior knowledge of comics. If this was a site you had to pay for then I would agree with you.

 

I would simply laugh at anyone who feels they have the right to expect a level of expertise in a "Attic find! Please ask questions" sale by a noob with pics following all the rules of the sales area. Having the right to assume a comic is unrestored is not a rule. If it is then please show me.

 

You keep bringing up newbs with attic finds, garage sales, etc.

What about the far more common regular boardie who has sold dozens+ of $10-$500 books over the years, the vast majority of which had no mention of restoration whatsoever? He may even say in his new thread "Garage sale! Please feel free to ask any questions!" Apparently, NOTHING IS IMPLIED. So, these sellers have the right to tell buyers to go pound sand when they discover undisclosed restoration?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Below are the HOS and PL rules as posted here...

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=4949997#Post4949997

 

I followed all of these current, stated rules concerning my transaction. I highlighted/enlarged one sentence in particular which should cover any doubts concerning my recent use of the PL list and the nomination I made.

 

Rule 5a, and POV's direct, simplistic wording of it, should clarify my reasoning and the justification behind my current nomination of the seller in question.

 

xxx ooo

 

Rupp

 

--------------------------------------------------------

HOS and Probation List Rules

The following Probation List Rules are in effect beginning 8/1/2011. Over some period of time these may be modified or expanded.

 

1) The 30-Day Rule

a) If a transaction between board members is not completed within 30 days, the offended party may submit the offender's name for inclusion to the HOS/Probation List (hereafter called the PL)

 

b) If the transaction is agreed on by both parties to take longer than 30 days - for example, a transaction involving time payments over a longer time, the 30 day clock begins from the time the agreed upon conditions were violated.

 

c) The 30-day rule is suspended if the accused refuses to complete the transaction or if the transaction cannot be completed due to, for example, the item being sold to someone else.

 

d) A Transaction between board members is not confined to the CGC Message Boards. Any transaction between forum members, regardless of the venue, is eligible for inclusion in the PL.

 

2) Notification on the Probation Discussion Thread

a) After the 30 Day Rule is fulfilled, the accuser will send a PM to the accused informing them the issue is being submitted to the Probation Discussion Thread for their inclusion in the PL. This should be a new PM and not part of an existing PM chain.

 

b) After the PM is sent the accuser may submit the accused for inclusion in the PL via the Probation Discussion Thread.

 

c) The accuser should outline as completely as possible the circumstances surrounding the transaction in dispute. Where possible include hyperlinks to board transactions and contact attempts along with dates.

 

d) If reasonable additional expenses are incurred the accuser may include them as part of the resolution. The validity of "reasonable additional expenses" may be subject to discussion.

 

e) If completing the transaction is no longer possible, the accuser may outline a proposed path to resolution.

 

3) Being Placed On The PL

a) After a 72-hour waiting period, if the accused does not respond they will be placed on the PL.

 

b) If the accused responds in the Probation Discussion Thread and it is determined the conditions of the transaction was not met, they will be added to the PL.

 

c) If the accused is not available during that 72-hour period and is placed on the PL, they are free to later respond in the Probation Discussion Thread and present their side.

 

d) If the accused has not responded in the Probation Discussion Thread but continues to post on the boards, a reply can be made informing them they are being considered for placement on the PL.

 

4) Removal From The PL

a) If the accuser requests the accused be removed form the PL, the accused will be removed.

 

b) If the accused makes full restitution to the satisfaction of the accuser, the accused will be removed from the PL.

 

c) If multiple accusers are involved, and full restitution is satisfactorily made to all accusers, the accused will be removed from the PL.

 

5) Probation List versus Hall Of Shame

a) The Probation List is for transactions that have not been fulfilled as promised.

 

b) The Hall Of Shame is for serious transgressions. For example, selling a book/books and sending nothing of value in the package. Interfering with someone's business. Being a multiple offender.

 

c) The Hall Of Shame candidate is subject to all of the above rules.

 

d) Inclusion in the Hall Of Shame must be decided by a poll.

 

e) Removal from the Hall Of Shame must be decided by a poll.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Unlike other damage to comics let's not forget that restoration is something that is done intentionally. While it seems fair to give everyone the benefit of the doubt I think we need to be very careful about absolving the seller of a restored comic of responsibility for the harm inflicted on the buyer when the restoration has not been disclosed.

 

Given what any of us would think of someone who intentionally failed to disclose restoration I think that an honest seller would be upset about unknowingly passing on a restored comic and would not want anyone to think otherwise. Anyone who finds out that they missed restoration on a book they sold and would tell their customer "sorry the limit on returns is 30 days as I said in my sales thread if only you had mentioned it yesterday I would have given you your money back but you are too late" is not a seller I would want to buy books from.

 

Restoration and the damage it can do to this hobby and the reputation of those involved is not something that should be taken lightly. Look at what forged signatures have done to the sports collectible industry and consider if letting the seller dictate their return policy is more important than protecting buyers from fraudulent purchases.

 

While this forum does not charge buyers or sellers for the opportunity to trade books here I would think that we should expect participants on this forum to a higher standard of behavior than other websites. A wide range of books are bought and sold here by participants that range from noobs to experts but that does not mean that we should accept the lowest common denominator and allow a window of opportunity for fraud.

 

If you don't want to take any responsibility for what you are selling, just post "as is" in your listing or better yet have a garage sale to sell your crappy books. The idea that it is none of the buyer's business whether a book has been restored unless they ask the seller is ridiculous. It opens the door for sellers to treat buyers horribly and forces buyers to waste an inordinate amount of a seller's time just to make sure that they are getting anything close to what they are paying for.

 

I think we can do better than that.

 

In your statement on the other thread you gave an example of the person waiting until the book is pressed before grading, that it would have to take extra time to have it pressed.

 

The vast majority of my books are unpressed, I'm still one of those who would add pressing to the list of things I consider restoration. Should I have to take a book back after you have decided to have it pressed? Or can I expect my book back (if I miss something) the way I sent it out?

 

BTW, not all restoration is the same. I don't collect high grade moderns, I collect older books, many of which are hard to find and MANY of which belonged to little kids at one time...who considered them toys and they used glue, markers, etc...I'm not sure one size fits all here.

 

It was not all so nefarious;) So while I have had very few returns (knocking on wood) and I feel so guilty for missing something, I'd probably take anything back, I'm a responsible adult, I'd like it to be my own decision.

 

I once had a person buy a $500 book from me, he was very concerned about a blue label. We agreed to something like 2 years. I'm fine with that on a deal by deal basis, but otherwise I think I'd like to make up my own mind on a case by case basis.

 

If I sell books to a dealer who only "notices" the problem after failing to sell the books for a period of time and then decides to "improve them" by having them pressed, I'd have to consider whether I wanted to take a return if books I sold as unpressed were then pressed..

 

Especially since the drop of glue a kid might have added, bothers me a lot less than the deliberate ironing, and especially if it is poorly done.

 

I'd rather have a nice book expertly restored than one pressed by an amateur and wind up with something that looks like shirts do when I iron them. (Ironing was never my forte;)

 

While I agree that LYING about restoration when you know it was done, is bad for the hobby, I disagree that professional disclosed restoration is so bad. That was one of the by products of CGC making a place for themselves in the industry, instead of singling out the liars (which would have been pretty difficult to distinguish), it tainted work done on books that would have fallen apart without help...which is fine, it's enabled me to own some things I otherwise might not be able to afford.

 

Ebay is now giving 180 days for returns, it's stressful thinking about what could go on there, I'm not sure I'd want the same here.

 

I mean how many incidents are we talking about? Other than Rupp's issue this time, have we had many other incidents where someone found out something was restored a long time later?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Disclosed restoration is OK as far as I am concerned.

 

I have bought a couple purple labels myself simply because the book was something special and the price was too good to refuse.

 

What we are talking about is undisclosed restoration that only the seller knows whether or not the failure to disclose was unintentional.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think this should come back to the first issue, whether there should be a statute of limitations on the PL and if so for what exact time limit.

 

IMO there is a consensus for such a limitation and perhaps the debate should focus now on what is a proper time limit. One proposal has been for a (1) year but there have been objections.

 

I personally feel these many other points for discussion can be sealed off from the main proposition. A statute of limitations would be categorical, you would be on one side of the timeline or the other, your claim is actionable or not via the PL process by that time scale.

 

Such a statute of limitations, if agreed upon, would act only as a procedural filter, and would not interfere with the present liberty of sellers to make their rules as they think best for their business.

 

My only reservation is that this should not apply to HoS nominations. If there is not a consensus on this point, I would consider that a much more serious issue to debate.

 

Was this one of the reasons why the rules as currently written did not include a time limitation? Was it to protect the scope of the HoS?

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

With the statute of limitations it seems like we have two things to vote on. One would be if there should be one at all. And then if the answer is yes, how long should it be.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I also agree with skypinkblu. Once someone presses a book some people are going to consider that resto and should not be obligated to take it back.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's like having your borders overrun by refugees in the war between Hustruckistan and Instagramia.

 

i3wg84.gif

 

I feel like at one point Jeff's argument has won me over. Then I read Sean's and I hm at the "what this place has become."

 

Here's my thought. I wish I was around during "the old days." I hear stories from friends who were around then about the great sellers and the sales threads that were run back then and I can only :cloud9: But sadly that isn't the state of affairs anymore. I don't know if it can get back to that. There is just too much exposure to comics based on TV and movies and now suddenly every Noob who just got into the hobby is an expert and many have no respect for actual experts.

 

There are just too many weekend warriors/dealers/specu-hoarders overrunning this place, the community has to adapt. I think buyers need to be more aware of WHO they are being from almost more so than what they are buying.

 

I've said this several times: if someone has a short time period for returns or doesn't accept returns at all - :idea: exit out of the thread and don't buy! No one needs to buy that latest Deadpool variant cover from Mr. Smith that just signed up yesterday and has zero reputation just to save $20. Maybe if the community did more of that as a whole, we could discourage shysters from showing up here daily.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've said this several times: if someone has a short time period for returns or doesn't accept returns at all - :idea: exit out of the thread and don't buy! No one needs to buy that latest Deadpool variant cover from Mr. Smith that just signed up yesterday and has zero reputation just to save $20. Maybe if the community did more of that as a whole, we could discourage shysters from showing up here daily.

 

:golfclap:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Disclosed restoration is OK as far as I am concerned.

 

I have bought a couple purple labels myself simply because the book was something special and the price was too good to refuse.

 

What we are talking about is undisclosed restoration that only the seller knows whether or not the failure to disclose was unintentional.

 

(thumbs u

 

..... and reward them with the card that says, "Do not pass Go, go directly to HOS.....". GOD BLESS.....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pages and pages and pages about how, where, what, why, when, and with whom.

 

At what point do we recognize that trying to micromanage every single possible permutation of a transaction down to its quarks and gluons will never work?

 

:popcorn:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pages and pages and pages about how, where, what, why, when, and with whom.

 

At what point do we recognize that trying to micromanage every single possible permutation of a transaction down to its quarks and gluons will never work?

 

:popcorn:

 

I don't see a discussion thread about the existing rules as micro-managing. Yes, there are very fine lines trying to be discussed. And their are broad strokes being discussed. That is what makes a discussion. And that's all this thread is right now: a discussion. I think over times this thread will result in some changes. Right now it has no impact on the existing rules. Further, people should be free to discuss any ideas relating to the rules at any level.

 

Sometimes it takes minutiae to ferret out a larger point. If you want to discuss, fine. Discuss. If you don't, just eat more popcorn and watch from the sidelines.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
6 6