Hall of Shame and Probation Rules DISCUSSION 4 4

[Bio-Rupp]

Rupp, I am glad you spent so much time researching me. I am sure you found some cool pictures to make some awesome memes for your "personal collection". You realize the flaw in your logic don't you? No...no you most likely don't. While researching me, I assume you noticed that while I do not sell I do buy. Maybe not $15,000 books but I buy $500 - $1,000 books several times a year. I am actually arguing against what is in my own best interest. Wouldn't lifetime guarantees or even 2 or 3 years benefit me? My opinions are based on what I feel is right, not self interest. How is that derailing anything? Do only sellers get to have input on sales threads rules? If you ignore the rest, please answer that.

 

Also, your the one using my name in your comments and then blasting me for responding. That is also typical for you. I used to wonder why people gave you a hard time, because you seemed like a pleasant enough guy but the last 6 months or so have been very revealing.

 

Swick is definitely right about you Hokie.

 

 

[PovertyRow]

I feel that most buyers, like me, would just want restitution for expenses incurred after the sale (ie grading service fees, postage etc) and not a full refund.

 

While I support your claim and the amount, I don't agree with your calculation of the amount. I do not think we should institute a requirement for sellers to reimburse grading expenses, unless there is a specific agreement between buyer and seller.

 

There are very few goods sold which allow buyers to seek recompense from sellers in excess of the initial purchase price, which would be a common result of this policy.

 

All these points seem quite reasonable, from a certain point of view. Which is why I'm pretty sure there will be no consensus. I think it makes MORE sense to force SELLERS TO CLEARLY STATE THEIR RETURN POLICY, whatever it may be, and let the buyers decide how much risk they're willing to take. That is an enforceable rule, while the others....much murkier.

 

This.

 

...GOD BLESS....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

The word "force" is not gonna sit well. Regardless, it is just the gift wrapping.

 

I feel this should be taken out of the PL Rules area and brought into the Usage Guidelines:

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1460472#Post1460472

 

This is something only Arch can change. And he has added a few on an ongoing basis like No Paypal Personal and No Raffles.

 

The thing is, what a seller's actual return policy is has nothing to do with the PL Rules. The PL would come into play if, for example, the seller stated a 2 week policy then refused, after a week, to make a refund.

 

So I again suggest adding this to the Usage Guidelines. For example, the Usage Guidelines state:

 

7. List scans or information about the grade of the offered books.

8. List estimated shipping costs, times, and methods.

9. List acceptable forms of payment (NOTE: Personal PayPal payment is NOT allowed as a listed option in your post as it is not appropriate for item purchases.)

Why not add:

10: List a return policy.

 

Simple as that.

 

I see people making some equation to eBay and even eBay has a place to specify your Return Policy or No Return Policy (even though the No Return is not easily enforced).

 

Basically most sales go off here just fine. Most sellers adhere to the terms they list in their sales thread. In the few instances where the return policy comes into question we can discuss it on an individual basis.

 

If a seller specifies No Returns, the buyer had better be very careful in communicating with the seller and save all PMs if an agreement beyond No Reeturns is reached. For example, over the course of PMing the buyer asks "OK - you say no return policy but what if there are coupons cut or missing pages?" The buyer responds, "then I will take the book back within x days."

 

Save that PM. If the book turns out to have missing pages etc. and the buyer tries to play the "No Return" card you can use the PMs as evidence to the contrary.

[CAHokie]

Rupp, I am glad you spent so much time researching me. I am sure you found some cool pictures to make some awesome memes for your "personal collection". You realize the flaw in your logic don't you? No...no you most likely don't. While researching me, I assume you noticed that while I do not sell I do buy. Maybe not $15,000 books but I buy $500 - $1,000 books several times a year. I am actually arguing against what is in my own best interest. Wouldn't lifetime guarantees or even 2 or 3 years benefit me? My opinions are based on what I feel is right, not self interest. How is that derailing anything? Do only sellers get to have input on sales threads rules? If you ignore the rest, please answer that.

 

Also, your the one using my name in your comments and then blasting me for responding. That is also typical for you. I used to wonder why people gave you a hard time, because you seemed like a pleasant enough guy but the last 6 months or so have been very revealing.

 

Swick is definitely right about you Hokie.

 

 

(thumbs u

[thunsicker]

Couldn't this all be solved by making it a prerequisite that sellers include return policy in their listings? Just like we need payment type, shipping costs, etc. If they fail to put return policy in their listings the mods poof the thread like they do if they fail the other rules.

[jimjum12]

Rupp at what time frame would you have expected a full refund?

 

I know it's been two years for this current transaction and you're only asking for grading fees but I'm curious based on your two year proposal above when you felt still asking for a full refund was fair

 

Howdy Hector

 

well here's how I see it.

 

Let's use our true life scenario where I accidentally sold you a book with undisclosed color touch.

 

You tossed a on the book in question on 10/23/13. I shipped it and all was fine until I heard from you on 5/12/14 that you had just discovered the book was coming back from CGC with color touch. I missed it and you missed it when you received it. That was right at 7 months.

 

I had no problem refunding you full purchase price, shipping, grading fees etc. I did this for two reasons, the first being I value your friendship and your business... the second being it was entirely my fault from the beginning. You trusted my opinion that the book had no restoration and I missed it. There was no way I could not be at fault. You would not have purchased the book in the first place, let alone had it graded, had you known the true condition of the book. You lost money because of me. That was unacceptable to me.

 

Your question was what time frame would I have "expected" a full refund. Well I would round the 7 months up to at least ONE YEAR.

 

I consider you and I both collectors and sellers. We buy what we like and sometimes flip for profit. I think that makes us both normal board buyers and sellers. I'm not sure how many times you submit books for grading but I usually do it once sometimes twice a year.

 

Since we are the average here (again I'm guessing as to how many times you submit books)... I feel one year, full refund polciy isn't too much to ask as a time frame for a seller's word concerning his product.

 

If the seller doesn't want to pony up the funds he/she cost you for his misrepresentation of his product (ie grading fees, shipping etc)... then I suppose that would be up to the seller in question. They wouldn't "have to" do it... but they should want to.

 

No matter what, the full purchase price of the product should be refunded if the seller made a mistake.

 

 

I'm not saying I would never take a return in a year...but here is my problem. If you see John or Mary or Jane as an equal (as you stated you felt Hector was) you buy a book from one of them don't notice the resto for a year either...I'm not sure I like them being responsible for your fees.

 

Both of you made an error.

 

Neither of you spotted it, it's not like You, John or Mary or Jane are neophytes. Shouldn't you have some responsibility? When you receive a book you (the person receiving it, not you specifically) should open the book and take a good hard look at it. If you don't, well...two mistakes occur.

 

If we give people a year, we will have some people not even looking at the books for a year.

 

I'd prefer to make my own decisions on a case by case basis. I'll take a return for any reason, slabbed or not, during a limited period of time, but after that. I am an adult, I'd like to make up my own mind.

 

All of these rules have drawbacks. I saw someone say something about not paying until a book is packed. I ship immediately if not sooner. If I have an issue mailing quickly, I talk to the person. I don't want to be lumped in with those who don't take any responsibility.

 

Why should I print postage and then have to reprint it when the person does not pay in a timely manner?

 

There are just too many variables mostly caused by the few of the people here who act like turkeys. I don't see why the rest of the sales forum needs stringent guidelines.

 

I'm fine with something saying each person should post their return policy. It will help me remember, but I would like to set my own and just maybe I'd like to keep tweaking it.

 

Your issue is was not a common one, I don't see the point in changing everything because of one, uncommon issue.

 

 

.... and when bringing up the "friendship" aspect, I, personally, would never expect a friend to give me a full refund on a book that I bought and then missed the resto myself. It would be grossly unfair to hold them to a higher standard than myself. I might expect an exchange for something else..... at most..... and I've been in that situation before. After the return period expires, I consider the book to be mine.....and the window for a return for full refund to be closed. Most of the people I deal with regularly will accept a book back for credit with out any trouble(after an extended period).... and that's fine by me. Requiring someone to be financially liable for a book 2 years later is ludicrous to me..... GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[Bio-Rupp]

Couldn't this all be solved by making it a prerequisite that sellers include return policy in their listings? Just like we need payment type, shipping costs, etc. If they fail to put return policy in their listings the mods poof the thread like they do if they fail the other rules.

 

Remember that mods want to us to police the sales threads on our own.

 

If they were in charge of that I'd say they would be as lax on that subject as anything else... like say blatant,consistent trolling and instigation.

[jimjum12]

I feel that most buyers, like me, would just want restitution for expenses incurred after the sale (ie grading service fees, postage etc) and not a full refund.

 

While I support your claim and the amount, I don't agree with your calculation of the amount. I do not think we should institute a requirement for sellers to reimburse grading expenses, unless there is a specific agreement between buyer and seller.

 

There are very few goods sold which allow buyers to seek recompense from sellers in excess of the initial purchase price, which would be a common result of this policy.

 

All these points seem quite reasonable, from a certain point of view. Which is why I'm pretty sure there will be no consensus. I think it makes MORE sense to force SELLERS TO CLEARLY STATE THEIR RETURN POLICY, whatever it may be, and let the buyers decide how much risk they're willing to take. That is an enforceable rule, while the others....much murkier.

 

This.

 

...GOD BLESS....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

The word "force" is not gonna sit well. Regardless, it is just the gift wrapping.

 

I feel this should be taken out of the PL Rules area and brought into the Usage Guidelines:

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1460472#Post1460472

 

This is something only Arch can change. And he has added a few on an ongoing basis like No Paypal Personal and No Raffles.

 

The thing is, what a seller's actual return policy is has nothing to do with the PL Rules. The PL would come into play if, for example, the seller stated a 2 week policy then refused, after a week, to make a refund.

 

So I again suggest adding this to the Usage Guidelines. For example, the Usage Guidelines state:

 

7. List scans or information about the grade of the offered books.

8. List estimated shipping costs, times, and methods.

9. List acceptable forms of payment (NOTE: Personal PayPal payment is NOT allowed as a listed option in your post as it is not appropriate for item purchases.)

Why not add:

10: List a return policy.

 

Simple as that.

 

I see people making some equation to eBay and even eBay has a place to specify your Return Policy or No Return Policy (even though the No Return is not easily enforced).

 

Basically most sales go off here just fine. Most sellers adhere to the terms they list in their sales thread. In the few instances where the return policy comes into question we can discuss it on an individual basis.

 

If a seller specifies No Returns, the buyer had better be very careful in communicating with the seller and save all PMs if an agreement beyond No Reeturns is reached. For example, over the course of PMing the buyer asks "OK - you say no return policy but what if there are coupons cut or missing pages?" The buyer responds, "then I will take the book back within x days."

 

Save that PM. If the book turns out to have missing pages etc. and the buyer tries to play the "No Return" card you can use the PMs as evidence to the contrary.

 

This.

 

GOD BLESS....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[thunsicker]

Couldn't this all be solved by making it a prerequisite that sellers include return policy in their listings? Just like we need payment type, shipping costs, etc. If they fail to put return policy in their listings the mods poof the thread like they do if they fail the other rules.

 

Remember that mods want to us to police the sales threads on our own.

 

If they were in charge of that I'd say they would be as lax on that subject as anything else... like say blatant,consistent trolling and instigation.

 

But when people fail to follow sales forum rules and the boardies policing make the requisite warning post, if the sales thread doesn't change it goes poof. Just add the rule that people need to have a return policy listed. You can decide to deal with or not deal with people depending on their return policy.

 

EDIT: And I see POV already suggested that.

Edited June 20, 2015 by thunsicker

[PovertyRow]

Couldn't this all be solved by making it a prerequisite that sellers include return policy in their listings? Just like we need payment type, shipping costs, etc. If they fail to put return policy in their listings the mods poof the thread like they do if they fail the other rules.

 

Remember that mods want to us to police the sales threads on our own.

 

If they were in charge of that I'd say they would be as lax on that subject as anything else... like say blatant,consistent trolling and instigation.

 

Sorry Rupp but I agree with thunsicker. A return policy is as much a sales guideline issue as stating method of shipment, stating payment method etc. Adding this to the Guidelines would not be "policing" on the Mod's part, and more than the other Guidelines rules. The policing comes in when, as I stated a few posts above, the stated or agreed-upon return policy is violated in some one.

[Bio-Rupp]

Couldn't this all be solved by making it a prerequisite that sellers include return policy in their listings? Just like we need payment type, shipping costs, etc. If they fail to put return policy in their listings the mods poof the thread like they do if they fail the other rules.

 

Remember that mods want to us to police the sales threads on our own.

 

If they were in charge of that I'd say they would be as lax on that subject as anything else... like say blatant,consistent trolling and instigation.

 

But when people fail to follow sales forum rules and the boardies policing make the requisite warning post, if the sales thread doesn't change it goes poof. Just add the rule that people need to have a return policy listed. You can decide to deal with or not deal with people depending on their return policy.

 

EDIT: And I see POV already suggested that.

 

It's a good idea from you both. Glad to see the discussion not be derailed.

 

xxx ooo

 

Rupp

[Bio-Rupp]

Couldn't this all be solved by making it a prerequisite that sellers include return policy in their listings? Just like we need payment type, shipping costs, etc. If they fail to put return policy in their listings the mods poof the thread like they do if they fail the other rules.

 

Remember that mods want to us to police the sales threads on our own.

 

If they were in charge of that I'd say they would be as lax on that subject as anything else... like say blatant,consistent trolling and instigation.

 

Sorry Rupp but I agree with thunsicker. A return policy is as much a sales guideline issue as stating method of shipment, stating payment method etc. Adding this to the Guidelines would not be "policing" on the Mod's part, and more than the other Guidelines rules. The policing comes in when, as I stated a few posts above, the stated or agreed-upon return policy is violated in some one.

 

I'm with you on this one POV. It reads better the second time

[jimjum12]

Couldn't this all be solved by making it a prerequisite that sellers include return policy in their listings? Just like we need payment type, shipping costs, etc. If they fail to put return policy in their listings the mods poof the thread like they do if they fail the other rules.

 

Remember that mods want to us to police the sales threads on our own.

 

If they were in charge of that I'd say they would be as lax on that subject as anything else... like say blatant,consistent trolling and instigation.

 

Trolling is something open to interpretation..... a return policy is pretty straightforward. All sles threads should have them. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[Bio-Rupp]

Couldn't this all be solved by making it a prerequisite that sellers include return policy in their listings? Just like we need payment type, shipping costs, etc. If they fail to put return policy in their listings the mods poof the thread like they do if they fail the other rules.

 

Remember that mods want to us to police the sales threads on our own.

 

If they were in charge of that I'd say they would be as lax on that subject as anything else... like say blatant,consistent trolling and instigation.

 

Trolling is something open to interpretation..... a return policy is pretty straightforward. All sles threads should have them. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

You are right jimbo.

 

I especially like your example in your current sales thread. It covers all the bases

[jsilverjanet]

I'm not sure anyone has mentioned it but why not make return policy part of the rules for a sales thread similar to listing payment types

Examples

Return policy - none

Return policy - up to two weeks

etc

 

 

 

 

I said this on the 16th

[thunsicker]

But you didn't say it as eloquently as Pov and me.

 

Mainly I've just been following this intermittently.

 

[Doktor]

I said it... sometime. In the other thread. I don't remember. But yes... Return Policy should be a required addition to the terms of sale.

[jimjum12]

Couldn't this all be solved by making it a prerequisite that sellers include return policy in their listings? Just like we need payment type, shipping costs, etc. If they fail to put return policy in their listings the mods poof the thread like they do if they fail the other rules.

 

Remember that mods want to us to police the sales threads on our own.

 

If they were in charge of that I'd say they would be as lax on that subject as anything else... like say blatant,consistent trolling and instigation.

 

Trolling is something open to interpretation..... a return policy is pretty straightforward. All sles threads should have them. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

You are right jimbo.

 

I especially like your example in your current sales thread. It covers all the bases

 

Thanks, brother.....it's evolved over the years, that's for sure. I try to tailor it as if I were the buyer. I still think that after 6 months or so a deal should be final. Whether anyone agrees or not, Paypal recognizes that time frame for select scenarios. Most people just aren't going to have refund cash laying around. I don't want this to sound insensitive..... but even with friends, when a person sells a book they :

a) No longer want the book

b) Wish to spend the money on something else.

..... so I'm going to make up my mind one way or another and turn the page.GOD BLESS....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[jimjum12]

But you didn't say it as eloquently as Pov and me.

 

Mainly I've just been following this intermittently.

 

And that, sir, is why you are still marginally sane GOD BLESS....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[EC ed]

I'm starting to think that you all have me on ignore.

[HarveySwick]

I'm starting to think that you all have me on ignore.