Thread Closed w/ Explanation. Thank You.

[shadroch]

Had a dozen people contact me today inquiring as to who the culprit was. Over half did so with the intention of blocking him. I copied and pasted the conversation and shared it with those interested parties, and the consensus was "utter person_who_is_obnoxiously_self-impressed".

 

 

That doesn't seem fair. If you share with one, you should share with all.

At a minimum, PM the guy and make sure he is aware of this thread so he can choose to defend his actions.

[Wrightson fan]

I see that you have really thought out your response. I can respect that. However, the offer for the book was one thing. His response to me when I said no and my reason for saying no, that would be where he crossed the line. He could have said sorry, I meant nothing by my remarks and that would have been the end of it. He chose to respond to my reasoned response with an attack. I am not sure where you are from, but manners mean something to me. The person who made the offer is severely lacking in the manners dept. This is why I chose to call attention to the events of this morning.

[Wrightson fan]

Had a dozen people contact me today inquiring as to who the culprit was. Over half did so with the intention of blocking him. I copied and pasted the conversation and shared it with those interested parties, and the consensus was "utter person_who_is_obnoxiously_self-impressed".

 

 

That doesn't seem fair. If you share with one, you should share with all.

At a minimum, PM the guy and make sure he is aware of this thread so he can choose to defend his actions.

 

I did that earlier.

 

 

[Number 6]

This case is different as it involves a single copy and highest graded. But if there are no takers at $1000, $900 or even $700 one has to wonder what the real market value of the book is? To determine that you put it on EBay with no reserve and a low start price, which I try to do for most of my sales. Or you give it to Heritage and take a big haircut anyway.

 

The response to items for sale on the boards isn't necessarily indicative of the "true market" for that item. The membership here is a small portion of total potential buyers for these items. And of that membership, many are buying for resale and thus only willing to pay a percentage of an items FMV, as opposed to a collector who may be willing to pay FMV to own the item.

 

Nor does listing an item on eBay for auction with a low starting bid seem to be the best way of determining the "true market". 7 days is a fairly small window for seriously interested buyers to find the item and participate. The auction route would be be the way to go only if you had an immediate need to liquidate the book for cash.

 

Perhaps a better way to get a feel for the market for this book is to list it on eBay as a 30-day listing with a Buy-It-Now and Best Offer option.

 

 

Or list it in Clink's February auction. It's certainly high-grade enough and the prices in this February's auction was pretty strong.

 

[comix4fun]

I appreciate the thought you put into this response, but there are a couple of areas where you kind of "rounded off" the details to make a point and I think it colors your conclusion.

 

 

This case is different as it involves a single copy and highest graded. But if there are no takers at $1000, $900 or even $700 one has to wonder what the real market value of the book is?

 

 

The book was listed here for 20 hours, 8 of which were overnight. Do you believe this was enough time, listed only here in the sales forum, to garner the attention of every possible FC collector who might be interested? Because that's how true market value is determined, a wide net catching a full representation of the target market, not a flash sale that's gone in less than a day and is missed by more people than it hits.

 

The "real market value" of the book can not be determined, or brought into question, based on less than a day on a single forum. I think we can agree upon that. Believing that those 20 hours mean that it's not worth his asking in a larger setting where the target market is represented more fully is leading you to the wrong conclusion.

 

I mean, you had to be pointed to this thread....an admitted FC collector...did not catch this thread while it was active. How many more are out there, just like you?

 

 

 

Personally offers made by PM are just that "private offers". I actually think taking the bidder to task is disrespectful;. He/she did not make a public issue out of it, the seller did! What does a private offer have to do with what nobody else knows about? If that offends you delete your PMs before you read them.

 

What a wonderful idea. Make whatever disrespectful offer, in whatever disrespectful way, you'd like under the cover of PM and when the person you disrespected takes you to task they are the bad guy? Brilliant.

 

Personally, I believe people are responsible for their words and actions at all times. If you can't say something publicly because you think you will be scorned for it, you probably shouldn't say it privately. Blaming the person who was the target makes it even worse.

 

 

I paid about $275 for my 9.0 raw and it pressed to a 9.2. Look at Heritage and you will find 9.6-9.8 copies of Four Color books that barely go for 9.2 guide. It all depends on general scarcity and demand. I can tell you demand for Four Color comics is not that high, generally.

 

 

As a collector of slabs I know you know that almost all of that "9.6 and 9.8 copies going for 9.2 guide" stuff goes out the window when, in CGC's entire history, they've only graded a single copy in the grade being offered.

 

 

 

 

I think the burden is on the seller, when they price a book at 4X the last 9.4 sales price to justify the price, not beat up on a PM bid because their feelings got hurt.

 

 

This is one of those "rounded off facts" i was talking about.

 

That "last 9.4 sales price" you reference was in September.....of 2003.

 

And it was $268 back in 2003.....his final asking price was just over 2.5 times that.

 

The next time you have a sales thread can we PM you offers using 2003 data as basis?

 

I would be very interested in a list of comics you have for sale using a 12 year old price guide.

 

If you can show that 90% of Four Colors (or Bullwinkle's) sell at 4X 9.4 prices, that would be a significant factor to me, at least in making an offer. It is part of the job of a seller to provide the data that helps the buyer determine what is reasonable.

 

It's the seller's job to do the buyer's research for him? On a book that is one of a kind and has no previous sales data?

 

If the buyer is using 12 year old sales data, and ignoring the book's solo top census status, and comparing it to books that have a fuller census and several times the volume of recorded sales, exactly how much work does a seller have to put in to repair that extreme an extent of broken logic and failed reasoning?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[4GEMWORKS]

I appreciate the thought you put into this response, but there are a couple of areas where you kind of "rounded off" the details to make a point and I think it colors your conclusion.

 

This case is different as it involves a single copy and highest graded. But if there are no takers at $1000, $900 or even $700 one has to wonder what the real market value of the book is?

 

The book was listed here for 20 hours, 8 of which were overnight. Do you believe this was enough time, listed only here in the sales forum, to garner the attention of every possible FC collector who might be interested? Because that's how true market value is determined, a wide net catching a full representation of the target market, not a flash sale that's gone in less than a day and is missed by more people than it hits.

 

You practically make my point for me. This forum is not the place to be selling any book where you want the highest value possible. You MIGHT get lucky and find the one guy desperate for a book and has enough money that being a bit off price is not a big deal.

 

The "real market value" of the book cannot be determined, or brought into question, based on less than a day on a single forum. I think we can agree upon that. Believing that those 20 hours mean that it's not worth his asking in a larger setting where the target market is represented more fully is leading you to the wrong conclusion.

 

I mean, you had to be pointed to this thread....an admitted FC collector...did not catch this thread while it was active. How many more are out there, just like you?

 

Again this makes my point in a different way. The fact that the book dropped from 1000 to 700 in less than 24 hours is a indication that neither buyers or sellers probably know the accurate price.

 

 

Personally offers made by PM are just that "private offers". I actually think taking the bidder to task is disrespectful;. He/she did not make a public issue out of it, the seller did! What does a private offer have to do with what nobody else knows about? If that offends you delete your PMs before you read them

 

 

What a wonderful idea. Make whatever disrespectful offer, in whatever disrespectful way, you'd like under the cover of PM and when the person you disrespected takes you to task they are the bad guy? Brilliant.

 

Personally, I believe people are responsible for their words and actions at all times. If you can't say something publicly because you think you will be scorned for it, you probably shouldn't say it privately. Blaming the person who was the target makes it even worse.

 

I don't mean to be disrespectful (and I am NOT ever going to hide behind PMs) but this is just plain ignorance. A bona fide auction on a place like ComicLink or Heritage is composed sometimes of dozens of bidders. A book that sells for $1000 might see top bids from individual bidders of $50, $100 $250, $500 etc.. If you had access to bidder information are you going to send e-mails to all these "lowball" bids and beat them up for disrespectfully low offers? Of course not. But that is effectively what has happened her. It is incremental bidders that create the ultimate demands and final price.

 

Instead of running any kind of an organized sale for the book the seller instead decided to run a "reverse" auction by lowering the price. Somebody came in with a $300 dollar bid , which might normally have been made in the process of a normal auction and was immediately made the object of scorn.

 

The job of the seller at that point is not to take the bidders to task and insult him? He/she simply says no thank you and moves on. There is no point to getting personal.

 

 

I paid about $275 for my 9.0 raw and it pressed to a 9.2. Look at Heritage and you will find 9.6-9.8 copies of Four Color books that barely go for 9.2 guide. It all depends on general scarcity and demand. I can tell you demand for Four Color comics is not that high, generally.

 

I know you know that almost all of that "9.6 and 9.8 copies going for 9.2 guide" stuff goes out the window when, in CGC's entire history, they've only graded a single copy in the grade being offered. .

 

So where is the beef? Why no bidders at the range asked? What the seller is trying to do is shortcut the process (and cost I suspect) of going through a place like Clink or Heritage for a quick sale. Like going to a pawn shop today for quick cash, you better expect some low ball offers.

 

BTW I have collected FC long enough to know that a single highest graded copy does not always go for big bucks or even over 9.2 guide. Often times it does, but you need to have the right buyer at the right time.

 

 

I think the burden is on the seller, when they price a book at 4X the last 9.4 sales price to justify the price, not beat up on a PM bid because their feelings got hurt

 

 

This is one of those "rounded off facts" i was talking about.

 

That "last 9.4 sales price" you reference was in September.....of 2003..

 

And it was $268 back in 2003.....his final asking price was just over 2.5 times that.

 

The next time you have a sales thread can we PM you offers using 2003 data as basis?

 

I would be very interested in a list of comics you have for sale using a 12 year old price guide..

 

Guide on the book in 9.2 is $375. We all know we can sell books for guide...right? I'll give you that it is probably worth more than $300, but if so, why no better offers? $268 12 years ago is all we have to go by. I'll expand on this in my final conclusion below..

 

 

 

If you can show that 90% of Four Colors (or Bullwinkle's) sell at 4X 9.4 prices, that would be a significant factor to me, at least in making an offer. It is part of the job of a seller to provide the data that helps the buyer determine what is reasonable

 

It's the seller's job to do the buyer's research for him? On a book that is one of a kind and has no previous sales data?

 

If the buyer is using 12 year old sales data, and ignoring the book's solo top census status, and comparing it to books that have a fuller census and several times the volume of recorded sales, exactly how much work does a seller have to put in to repair that extreme an extent of broken logic and failed reasoning?.

 

Now you make me laugh! Of course it is the sellers job to provide the benefits and reasons for a seller to part with their money. Why do you think ComicLink goes on and on with their premium listings describing scarcity, multiples of guide and any other relevant factor when listing books?

 

It's a buyers job to do their own research? I guess college students pursuing marketing degrees are being misinformed. You don't give sellers data you provide a product and price and let them do their own research.

 

I'll end with three final points:

 

1) While there ma only be 1 9.8 in this book and only 1 9.4 12 years ago there are almost certainly other Bullwinkle books that have sold in 9.8. Why doesn't the seller provide the audience with evidence that backs up their asking price? I have no idea who the buyer or seller is so I have no axe to grind. I just think if you are asking a big multiple of guide that you have some responsibility to back up the price. This book might be worth a lot more. I have no idea.

 

2)The seller has run a reverse auction and basically belittled an offer that would normally be made is a standard auction. I think it is actually a shameful act and disrespectful to have treated the offer the way it was.. An audience tike this is wide and diverse. You will get stupid offers. Do not engage. Do not get into detailed replies that cause bad feelings. Just say no politely and move on. And then to say you will provide detail via PM on the "culprit" .That's not right. If you don't have the guts to make it public, just keep it to yourself. Depending on how far you took it, it might be grounds for libel.

 

3) I have no idea what getting a lowball offer has to do with pulling a sales thread...Am I alone in that thought? Nobody even had to know about it. I get lowball offers on stuff occasionally when I put fixed price stuff on EBay. Does that mean I pull the item? If I get enough, I sometimes do rethink the price.

 

[comix4fun]

 

It's the seller's job to do the buyer's research for him? On a book that is one of a kind and has no previous sales data?

 

If the buyer is using 12 year old sales data, and ignoring the book's solo top census status, and comparing it to books that have a fuller census and several times the volume of recorded sales, exactly how much work does a seller have to put in to repair that extreme an extent of broken logic and failed reasoning?.

 

Now you make me laugh! Of course it is the sellers job to provide the benefits and reasons for a seller to part with their money. Why do you think ComicLink goes on and on with their premium listings describing scarcity, multiples of guide and any other relevant factor when listing books?

 

It's a buyers job to do their own research? I guess college students pursuing marketing degrees are being misinformed. You don't give sellers data you provide a product and price and let them do their own research.

 

 

 

I am glad it made you laugh...it's still not as funny as you trotting out 12 year old sale data as relevant.

 

Smart buyers ALWAYS do their own research. Smart buyers NEVER take a seller's research at face value.

 

And if a buyer is relying on 12 year old GPA results as how they buy comics today then I have a stack of CBG's from the 80's that might help them even more in the offers they make.

 

Speaking of what makes us laugh, I've never seen someone twist themselves into such a pretzel trying to make poor manners in making an offer the fault of the person receiving the offer.

[Hulksdaddy1]

OP,

 

Take tree fiddy for it?

 

 

 

[VintageComics]

There's just no need for emotional baggage when negotiating a price on an item.

 

The potential buyer should have just made an offer and if it was refused they should have said thank you and moved on.

 

Anything more than that is just high school.

 

And while I agree with vaillant about outing them, I do think it's worth discussing these things in public so that people are aware of what is and isn't proper etiquette when negotiating.

 

It's the only way this place stays a good community.

 

 

I will say that I've been mildly offended a few times with low ball offers. Whether I've had a bad day, got my tights in a tizzy over something that happened during the day with family or you just have bad chemistry with people making the offer, whatever it is we're human. I think the above should apply to both sellers and buyers. It's just a price negotiation. No need for making a mountain out of a mole hill.

 

 

[comix4fun]

There's just no need for emotional baggage when negotiating a price on an item.

 

The potential buyer should have just made an offer and if it was refused they should have said thank you and moved on.

 

Anything more than that is just high school.

 

And while I agree with vaillant about outing them, I do think it's worth discussing these things in public so that people are aware of what is and isn't proper etiquette when negotiating.

 

It's the only way this place stays a good community.

 

 

I will say that I've been mildly offended a few times with low ball offers. Whether I've had a bad day, got my tights in a tizzy over something that happened during the day with family or you just have bad chemistry with people making the offer, whatever it is we're human. I think the above should apply to both sellers and buyers. It's just a price negotiation. No need for making a mountain out of a mole hill.

 

 

 

Simple price negotiation should never give rise to anger, I agree.

 

It's only when someone mocks you or laughs at you or, out of pure self interest and desire for something as silly as a comic book, would distort the market or the books value that I can completely understand taking issue.

 

 

[jmg3637]

At this point we do not know for sure if the Private Message (PM) between the prospective seller and buyer was actually rude, or disrespectful, or merely the discourse between the two where there was a disagreement as to the fair value of this beautiful book.

 

From the thread it seemed to me that the seller fired the first salvo in rejecting the low, but not unreasonably low, $300 offer. I thought that Seller said he tried to defend his theory of why the price should be where it was.

 

The buyer responded as to why the 1000 initial price was way too high ( which seller must have realized as he dropped his price twice within 24 hours). He seemed to explain why he felt the 700 price was still significantly more than he was willing to pay for the book. Depending on the verbiage used there should be nothing to be offended about in this situation.

 

I am offended by the actions of the seller who has brought the spotlight to this situation, but i am even more offended that other sellers would so willingly jump on the bandwagon, and outright ban this person from buying your product.

 

I actually am curious who the sellers are that wanted to ban this buyer, I might want to add them to my DO NOT BUY FROM list. With all the good sellers here why would I want to deal with someone who was so prickly. Just the start to a bad transaction.

 

ALmist forgot to mention that FOUR COLORS barely move from year to year. I just pulled out my Ostreets 29 and 36. the lines are GD25, FN65, NM94 (18 55 200) while in #36 2.0\4.0\6.0\8.0\9.0\9.2 are 21\42\63\149\237\325.

 

The last recorded GPA sale being from 2003 may not be unrealistic at all for Four Colors These are all books that are 50 to 75 years old. There has rarely been anything to move the value of these books. Only movie I can think of in say the last 25 years tied to a few of these books were Rocky & Bullwinkle and Alvin and the Chipmunks. No reason to suspect that these books will ever take a significant jump in the future. If you want to not loose money Four Colors and many other comics, you have to buy right, and not count on inflation to make up for your overpaying.

 

[comix4fun]

I missed guys saying they wanted to ban the buyer. That's unreasonable.

 

Differences of opinion in pricing are common.

Starting at 70% off of a guy's asking price is incredibly low. So low that I would simply pass on the item rather than make that kind of an offer in the first place. There's something to be said for seeing the totality of the situation and simply moving on when the gap is that great from the outset. I see it in the art world all the time.

 

I can't imagine any buyer would think a seller would drop their price 70% simply because the buyer told them it wasn't worth it and they didn't want to pay it.

 

I get low ball offers all the time. I just had a sales thread where a guy offered me 70% off some books I was selling. It was so low that it didn't even get a counter offer from me.

 

That leads me to believe that anyone making a 70% off asking price offer is doing so to simply get it off their opinion of value off of chest and can't possibly imagine a world where the seller is going to agree.

[blue808]

Totally agree. If you feel the price is to high just move along. Instead buyer was rude and tried to justify why seller should sell it to him at what he thought was an acceptable price. Should've just said thank you and agree to disagree.

[G.A.tor]

It you are selling a fast moving book to a flipper/dealer they will need to make at least a 25% profit

 

 

 

many times I work on 5-10% on a fast moving book....25% would be heaven

[mackenzie999]

Hasn't the seller said that while he found the offer unreasonable, it was the way the potential buyer handled himself that he took issue with? Hard to find fault with that, we all prefer to be treated respectfully.

 

That being said, it is very easy to misread someone's tone or attitude via post or email, and sometimes we jump the gun on being offended.

 

As for being offended by the offer, perhaps the buyer expected to be haggled back up to the midpoint between asking and offering? That's pretty common.

 

Personally, I view a lowball offer the same way I view absurd asking prices, which is simply to move along.

 

Still don't get why this is a thread though.

 

GLWTS

[Wrightson fan]

At this point we do not know for sure if the Private Message (PM) between the prospective seller and buyer was actually rude, or disrespectful, or merely the discourse between the two where there was a disagreement as to the fair value of this beautiful book.

 

From the thread it seemed to me that the seller fired the first salvo in rejecting the low, but not unreasonably low, $300 offer. I thought that Seller said he tried to defend his theory of why the price should be where it was.

 

The buyer responded as to why the 1000 initial price was way too high ( which seller must have realized as he dropped his price twice within 24 hours). He seemed to explain why he felt the 700 price was still significantly more than he was willing to pay for the book. Depending on the verbiage used there should be nothing to be offended about in this situation.

 

I am offended by the actions of the seller who has brought the spotlight to this situation, but i am even more offended that other sellers would so willingly jump on the bandwagon, and outright ban this person from buying your product.

 

I actually am curious who the sellers are that wanted to ban this buyer, I might want to add them to my DO NOT BUY FROM list. With all the good sellers here why would I want to deal with someone who was so prickly. Just the start to a bad transaction.

 

ALmist forgot to mention that FOUR COLORS barely move from year to year. I just pulled out my Ostreets 29 and 36. the lines are GD25, FN65, NM94 (18 55 200) while in #36 2.0\4.0\6.0\8.0\9.0\9.2 are 21\42\63\149\237\325.

 

The last recorded GPA sale being from 2003 may not be unrealistic at all for Four Colors These are all books that are 50 to 75 years old. There has rarely been anything to move the value of these books. Only movie I can think of in say the last 25 years tied to a few of these books were Rocky & Bullwinkle and Alvin and the Chipmunks. No reason to suspect that these books will ever take a significant jump in the future. If you want to not loose money Four Colors and many other comics, you have to buy right, and not count on inflation to make up for your overpaying.

 

You are offended by my actions? Were you the initial offended party? Didn't think so.

 

I have shared the conversation with those who have asked to see it. They formed their own opinions once they read it. I did not twist their arm. I have yet to have one of those people to say that I was in the wrong in my initial response to him, but every one agreed that he was beyond rude in his response to me. Take that for what it is worth....or don't.

 

I will also say that I contacted him about this thread. He read the pm...but has chosen to not respond. Take that for what it is worth as well.

 

 

[Wrightson fan]

This has become tiresome...and boring.

 

I am sorry if I should not have shared what I considered rude behavior on another person's part. I was raised differently and I sometimes have a hard time dealing with people who come across as entitled and condescending. This was not what I wanted to have happen in my sales thread . Not in the least. I will ask that we please move along from this. I have more books to offer in the coming weeks, and I do not want this to be a carry-over issue.

 

Thanks to those of you who defended me.

[VintageComics]

It you are selling a fast moving book to a flipper/dealer they will need to make at least a 25% profit

 

 

 

many times I work on 5-10% on a fast moving book....25% would be heaven

 

Man, you're a cheap date.

[VintageComics]

They then chose to inform me that my initial asking price was laughable

 

My opinion is that the word laughable would have been better left out but I probably wouldn't have started a thread about it.

 

Water under the bridge. Everyone has a bad day and most people on here are good people. Even the best of people can get under each other's skin sometimes, often without realizing. it.

 

 

 

 

[Wrightson fan]

They then chose to inform me that my initial asking price was laughable

 

My opinion is that the word laughable would have been better left out but I probably wouldn't have started a thread about it.

 

Water under the bridge. Everyone has a bad day and most people on here are good people. Even the best of people can get under each other's skin sometimes, often without realizing. it.

 

 

 

 

I didn't start a thread about it. I started a thread in order to try and sell one of my books. It devolved into this because of someone's inability to act in a civilized manner and I called them on it.