SteppinRazor Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 On 5/4/2017 at 4:36 PM, Lazyboy said: This is an important point. Comics may be delivered in monthly installments, but they are still parts of a continuing story (we're discussing regular continuity Marvel here). There's a huge difference between a creative team revealing that not all was what it seemed to be during their run and somebody writing a story that changes/invalidates something from 20 years earlier. Unless one thinks that plot twists and surprises shouldn't be allowed in storytelling. This seems reasonable. It's not a ret-con if it's part of the story arc. Having the next issue reveal a surprise about the previous issue counting as a ret-con seems like a can of worms. Even if there are a couple of issues in between, if it's party of the contiguous story, that should be taken as a whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydogrules Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 16 minutes ago, SteppinRazor said: This seems reasonable. It's not a ret-con if it's part of the story arc. Having the next issue reveal a surprise about the previous issue counting as a ret-con seems like a can of worms. Even if there are a couple of issues in between, if it's party of the contiguous story, that should be taken as a whole. Whether you want to call it a ret-con or not (which it was, and it wasn't a "couple of issues" later, try a couple of YEARS later, and it wasn't a "story arc", either, it was a cheap narrative device that came out of nowhere, ie, a ret-con), it doesn't change the fact that NM 98 is and always will be the first appearance of the character, likeneness, identity, and name of Domino. All the attempted pump and dumping in the world is never going to change that. -J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazyboy Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 26 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said: Whether you want to call it a ret-con or not (which it was, and it wasn't a "couple of issues" later, try a couple of YEARS later 16 months (between NM 98 and XF 11) is not a couple of years. Neither is 14 months (between NM 98 and XF 9) to reach the first explicit hint that "Domino" was not what she seemed to be. 26 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said: , and it wasn't a "story arc", either Continuing story from the same writing team? Sounds like a story arc to me. Do you ever read novels? Do you get upset when there's a surprise/twist in a later chapter that fits with the story but changes what you thought you knew? 26 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said: , it was a cheap narrative device that came out of nowhere, ie, a ret-con), it doesn't change the fact that NM 98 is and always will be the first appearance of the character, likeneness, identity, and name of Domino. Likeness and name, sure. So what? Then ads are first appearances. 26 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said: All the attempted pump and dumping in the world is never going to change that. -J. I'm not "pumping" anything and I have nothing to dump. The only Liefeld X-Force issue I own more than one copy of is #1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydogrules Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 (edited) Ads still aren't "first appearances" and the first appearance of Domino in both the story and on the cover of NM 98 is still nothing remotely like an "ad". Keep pumping.... -J. Edited May 9, 2017 by Jaydogrules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteppinRazor Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 1 hour ago, Jaydogrules said: Whether you want to call it a ret-con or not (which it was, and it wasn't a "couple of issues" later, try a couple of YEARS later, and it wasn't a "story arc", either, it was a cheap narrative device that came out of nowhere, ie, a ret-con), it doesn't change the fact that NM 98 is and always will be the first appearance of the character, likeneness, identity, and name of Domino. All the attempted pump and dumping in the world is never going to change that. -J. I believe identity is the rub here, isn't it? What would be the first appearance of copycat? I guess the answer to that is probably, who cares. I've got one copy of each I bought when they came out, I don't really care which one it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ygogolak Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 35 minutes ago, SteppinRazor said: I believe identity is the rub here, isn't it? What would be the first appearance of copycat? I guess the answer to that is probably, who cares. I've got one copy of each I bought when they came out, I don't really care which one it is. X-Force #19 which should be important considering it's Deadpool's girlfriend in the movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazyboy Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 3 minutes ago, ygogolak said: X-Force #19 which should be important considering it's Deadpool's girlfriend in the movie. No, the first depiction of her true form is not even close to being her first appearance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteppinRazor Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Lazyboy said: No, the first depiction of her true form is not even close to being her first appearance. It seems like a catch 22, doesn't it? If fake Domino is Domino's first appearance, why would the true form of copycat be necessary to be her first appearance? Seems like the logical position for the NM98 position is that it is the first appearance of both Domino and Copycat. Which is fine. Or maybe it's the reveal? I don't like merry go rounds, so I think I'll get off now Edited May 9, 2017 by SteppinRazor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazyboy Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 49 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said: Ads still aren't "first appearances" and the first appearance of Domino in both the story and on the cover of NM 98 is still nothing remotely like an "ad". Keep pumping.... -J. If the first depiction and name constitute a first appearance as you claim, then ads can clearly be first appearances. Of course, the reality is that they can't and stories are what matter. A cover is really nothing more than a pin-up and the ultimate ad for a comic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broke as a Joke Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 Avengers 83 is the book to have for the first appearance of Valkyrie. Seems to be the same situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazyboy Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 3 minutes ago, SteppinRazor said: It seems like a catch 22, doesn't it? If fake Domino is Domino's first appearance, why would the true form of copycat be necessary to be her first appearance? Seems like the logical position for the NM98 position is that it is the first appearance of both Domino and Copycat. The first appearance of Vanessa Carlysle (AKA Copycat) is New Mutants 98, impersonating Domino using her shape-shifting ability. The first appearance of Neena Thurman (AKA Domino) is X-Force 8. It's really not complicated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ygogolak Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 (edited) 56 minutes ago, Lazyboy said: The first appearance of Vanessa Carlysle (AKA Copycat) is New Mutants 98, impersonating Domino using her shape-shifting ability. The first appearance of Neena Thurman (AKA Domino) is X-Force 8. It's really not complicated. How do you make a copy of something that never existed? It's like you're saying you put a blank piece of paper in a copier and out came a Domino. Edited May 9, 2017 by ygogolak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazyboy Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 2 minutes ago, ygogolak said: How do you make a copy of something that never existed? It's like you're saying you put a blank piece of paper in a copier and out came a Domino. Why don't all characters first appear as newborn babies? We're talking about stories from a fictional universe here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broke as a Joke Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 1 hour ago, Lazyboy said: Why don't all characters first appear as newborn babies? We're talking about stories from a fictional universe here. Cable did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydogrules Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 1 hour ago, ygogolak said: How do you make a copy of something that never existed? It's like you're saying you put a blank piece of paper in a copier and out came a Domino. The analogy is kind of funny, but accurate. It really doesn't matter "who" is portraying "Domino" in NM 98, the identity, character, name, etc first appears in NM 98. And yes it is simple- Vanessa Carlyle first appears as Domino in NM 98. Then, a year and a half later, Neena Thurman appears as Domino. Just because Jason Todd puts on the Robin costume for the first time in Bats 366 (or whenever it was), doesn't make that the first appearance of "Robin"- that would still be Tec 38. The CGC label describes what actually happens just fine on NM 98 (even factoring in the subsequent narrative ret-con that occurs). So sorry pump and dumpers but the introduction of Neena Thurman taking over the role of Domino does not un-ring the bell of NM 98 being the first appearance of that exact same character several months earlier, and I can't believe how impossibly stupid this conversation has become (actually yes I can, considering the the entire point of this thread is to pump and dump X Force 8). -J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazyboy Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 (edited) You're getting hung up on it being the "first" appearance. Impersonating somebody does not change who you are, nor who they are. Copycat was never Domino, no matter what she looked like. Quote considering the the entire point of this thread is to pump and dump X Force 8 No, it was started because CGC strangely notes X-Force 11 as being the first Domino, when it is absolutely not. Edited May 9, 2017 by Lazyboy gaz973 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsupreme Posted May 10, 2017 Share Posted May 10, 2017 I have to agree with the NEW MUTANTS #98 argument. Just because it is not the "real" appearance it is the "first appearance". However, the market will determine. My money is on NEW MUTANTS #98. She appears on the cover and is mentioned by name in the issue and appears in it even if she is not the "real" DOMINO. If YOU want X-FORCE #11 to be her 1st appearance then that is your right. CGC is not infallible. They make mistakes and in this case they made one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ygogolak Posted May 10, 2017 Share Posted May 10, 2017 20 hours ago, Lazyboy said: You're getting hung up on it being the "first" appearance. Impersonating somebody does not change who you are, nor who they are. Copycat was never Domino, no matter what she looked like. No, it was started because CGC strangely notes X-Force 11 as being the first Domino, when it is absolutely not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethal_Collector Posted May 10, 2017 Share Posted May 10, 2017 On 7/17/2015 at 9:24 PM, awakeintheashes said: This may get more traction in the Copper thread, but I've wondered about this topic for a bit. NM 98 is Copycat as Domino X-Force #8 features a flashback of the real Domino X-Force #11 features the first time we see Domino in real time. Is there a similar example of this with other characters? Venom. Web Of Spider-Man 18 is the very first chronological mention of Venom who pushes Spidey into a train without his senses going off (I 'think' the fist time that happened?). His first cameo, full appearance (in a still frame) is ASM 299 His "first appearance" is ASM 300 Jerome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazyboy Posted May 10, 2017 Share Posted May 10, 2017 4 minutes ago, Lethal_Collector said: Venom. Web Of Spider-Man 18 is the very first chronological mention of Venom who pushes Spidey into a train without his senses going off (I 'think' the fist time that happened?). His first cameo, full appearance (in a still frame) is ASM 299 His "first appearance" is ASM 300 Jerome How is that similar? What's a "cameo, full" appearance? An appearance is either brief/cameo or full. Venom's first full appearance is ASM 300 in (approximately) 80 panels on 24 pages as the main focus of the story. Before that, he had appeared as a mysterious, obscured/partial figure in one (or two, if you believe he was the fully shadowed figure in the previous panel) panel of WoSM 18 one panel of WoSM 24 five panels on one page of ASM 298 two panels on one page of ASM 299 before stepping out of the shadows on the last (splash) page of ASM 299. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
