Sweet 16, Round 5: Daredevil #168 vs New Teen Titans #1 (1980)

[AlexH]

Today's battle features Daredevil #168 vs New Teen Titans #1 (1980).

 

Daredevil #168. Published by Marvel 1981. Written and drawn by Frank Miller. First Elektra.

 

New Teen Titans #1. Published by DC 1980. Written by George Perez and Marv Wolfman with art by George Perez. DC's answer to the X-Men?!?

 

Good luck to both...

[Wally's Comics]

Eventhough I like kickass Elektra!

 

Teen Titans had more of an impact on the comic world by helping revitialize DC!

 

 

[Sal]

i went with TT #1, because all the guys with perms didn't show up until later. if you had said TT #40, then it would have been a real battle. what did Donna Troy see in that Terry guy anyways

[goldust40]

I went with DD 168 - Miller takes over as writer and makes the once failing title his own, and the best thing on the stands at the time. It was the point that he realized he could move the medium forward with total confidence.

 

TT 1 was important in the short term and was what DC needed, but it's not as significant as it's made out.

[FlyingDonut]

Titans 1 - the book that revitalized DC and paved the way for all other DC books in the 80s.

[goldust40]

Titans 1 - the book that revitalized DC and paved the way for all other DC books in the 80s.

 

You're just being wilfully contrary.

[Zonker]

Titans 1 - the book that revitalized DC and paved the way for all other DC books in the 80s.

 

You're just being wilfully contrary.

 

Yeah, I don't think Teen Titans had much to do with DC hiring Alan Moore to do Swamp Thing, and by extension providing the entire foundation for the Vertigo imprint.

 

But it probably is to blame for the John Byrne Superman, so it's gotta have a few points deducted because of that.

 

Also: DD 168 may be derivative of Eisner, but if you're gonna swipe, swipe from the best! New Teen Titans was nice enough, but even more derivative of the Claremont X-Men, the Silver Age Doom Patrol, the Cardy-era Teen Titans (obviously), and with a dash of Kirby's Fourth World thrown in to the mix.

 

DD 168.

[goldust40]

Titans 1 - the book that revitalized DC and paved the way for all other DC books in the 80s.

 

You're just being wilfully contrary.

 

Yeah, I don't think Teen Titans had much to do with DC hiring Alan Moore to do Swamp Thing, and by extension providing the entire foundation for the Vertigo imprint.

 

But it probably is to blame for the John Byrne Superman, so it's gotta have a few points deducted because of that.

 

Also: DD 168 may be derivative of Eisner, but if you're gonna swipe, swipe from the best! New Teen Titans was nice enough, but even more derivative of the Claremont X-Men, the Silver Age Doom Patrol, the Cardy-era Teen Titans (obviously), and with a dash of Kirby's Fourth World thrown in to the mix.

 

DD 168.

 

You're just being wilfully correct and logical and framing things in a proper context.

 

Good post. Although I wasn't aware that Teen Titans led to Moore going to DC.

[Hobgoblin]

Anything by Miller kicks the [#@$%!!!] out of an 80's Teen Titans book. Unless it's #2 we're talking about and not #1

[Zonker]

wasn't aware that Teen Titans led to Moore going to DC.

 

No, it didn't (at least I can't imagine a scenario where it did)

 

My above didn't mean I was speaking sarcasticly, rather that I thought flying-donut had over-reached in claiming all 1980s DCs as beholden to NTT #1. Guess I should have used instead.

 

Damn! Proper graemin syntax is harder than greggy makes it look!

[Tango 'n Cash]

The New Teen Titans had far more to do with DC's resurgence than anything Moore created at that point in time. Many of you are looking back on this comparison with 2005 blinders on.

[goldust40]

The New Teen Titans had far more to do with DC's resurgence than anything Moore created at that point in time. Many of you are looking back on this comparison with 2005 blinders on.

 

Key phrase there is "at that point in time". NTT did provide DC with a title that for them was innovative and had direction, but that was 1980. Moore didn't arrive at DC for another 3 - 4 years. Plus NTT, as Zonker pointed out, was derivative to an extent, while Swamp Thing 20 onwards was a whole new genre for comics. Even in 1983 Moore was being hailed by Wein, O'Neill, etc. as a seminal writer.

[Zonker]

Commercially, sure... I agree. But the beauty of Alex's contest is that we don't all have to use the same yardstick in voting-- some will vote based on commercial success, some will vote based on how collectible the issue is today, some will vote based on nostalgia, or "historical importance" or what-have-you.

 

I'm just saying that yes, with my 2005 bifocals on, I like Daredevil #168 "way more" than NTT #1.

[Tango 'n Cash]

while Swamp Thing 20 onwards was a whole new genre for comics.

 

I am a BIG Moore fan but even I have to disagree with this.

[PedigreeMan]

while Swamp Thing 20 onwards was a whole new genre for comics.

 

I am a BIG Moore fan but even I have to disagree with this.

 

I disagree.

 

Incidentally, here's what I wrote a few months back on why Moore's reinvention of Swamp Thing was the most important book of the '80s:

 

While DKR and Watchmen were the ultimate culmination of everything that typified the changes to the comic industry during this time, they were both built on the foundation laid by the books that came before. I really enjoyed Shadroch's initial argument that New Teen Titans #1 "legitimized" DC, leading to Frank Miller eventually moving there to do DKR. Along those same lines, Swamp Thing #21 laid the foundation for Watchmen, and thus should be considered of more import.

 

However, I have to give the nod to ST #21 because the impact that book had on the growth of the writer in comic books is still being felt today.

 

Think about it: If Moore is just a little less talented and fails to craft "The Anatomy Lesson" as perfectly as he does OR if the comic buying populace reject his radical changes ("Whaddaya mean Swamp Thing ain't Alec Holland covered in muck?!?"), within twelve months The Bearded One's back on a plane to England to toil away in obscurity doing serials for 2000 A.D. or Warrior. Karen Berger then decides that British writers are "not yet ready for prime time," and never has the "Blackhawk Kid" (Black Orchid) discussion with Neil Gaiman, plus DC never imports Grant Morrison or Peter Milligan to reinvent Animal Man and Shade. Jamie Delano and Garth Ennis on Hellblazer? Forget about it, Alan Moore never got a chance to create the character. Now it's 1991 and Swamp Thing is a member of the JLA trading jokes with Booster Gold and Blue Beetle and Vertigo is something you get trying to "read" the latest Rob Leifeld book.

 

Then Image comes along with all its flash and no story philosophy, sells a trillion books, and solidifies in the minds of the powers that be that comic books are solely a visual medium that any ten year old could "write." That means no Kurt Busiek on Marvels (what happens to Alex Ross, then?), Peter David and Mark Waid are reigned in creatively, and perhaps Dark Horse doesn't take a chance on Sin City.

 

Then the crash happens, and the Big Two are even less inclined to "go outside the box" creatively. That means no Warren Ellis, no James Robinson, and Kevin Smith has to actually perform some of those sexual acts he jokes about so often to get any work in the comic industry.

 

Can you see where I'm ultimately going with this? In the end, JMS and Jeph Loeb stay in television (not necessarily a bad thing ), Brian Azzarello, Greg Rucka, and Ed Brubaker are nobodies, and Brian Michael Bendis is off writing David Mamet-like plays or something.

 

And us fans? We're either carping about the sorry state of story telling today, or anxiously awaiting the latest issues of Spawn and (a Millar-less) Youngblood.

 

So yeah, I think we owe a lot to Alan Moore and Swamp Thing #21.

[goldust40]

while Swamp Thing 20 onwards was a whole new genre for comics.

 

I am a BIG Moore fan but even I have to disagree with this.

 

I meant begat, initiated or kickstarted a whole new genre that would eventually become an imprint with conventions specific to it etc - that sentence wasn't written clearly enough. And you are entitled to your opinion, although I'd like details behind your arguments rather than mere gainsaying.

[Hobgoblin]

while Swamp Thing 20 onwards was a whole new genre for comics.

 

I am a BIG Moore fan but even I have to disagree with this.

 

I disagree.

 

Incidentally, here's what I wrote a few months back on why Moore's reinvention of Swamp Thing was the most important book of the '80s:

 

While DKR and Watchmen were the ultimate culmination of everything that typified the changes to the comic industry during this time, they were both built on the foundation laid by the books that came before. I really enjoyed Shadroch's initial argument that New Teen Titans #1 "legitimized" DC, leading to Frank Miller eventually moving there to do DKR. Along those same lines, Swamp Thing #21 laid the foundation for Watchmen, and thus should be considered of more import.

 

However, I have to give the nod to ST #21 because the impact that book had on the growth of the writer in comic books is still being felt today.

 

Think about it: If Moore is just a little less talented and fails to craft "The Anatomy Lesson" as perfectly as he does OR if the comic buying populace reject his radical changes ("Whaddaya mean Swamp Thing ain't Alec Holland covered in muck?!?"), within twelve months The Bearded One's back on a plane to England to toil away in obscurity doing serials for 2000 A.D. or Warrior. Karen Berger then decides that British writers are "not yet ready for prime time," and never has the "Blackhawk Kid" (Black Orchid) discussion with Neil Gaiman, plus DC never imports Grant Morrison or Peter Milligan to reinvent Animal Man and Shade. Jamie Delano and Garth Ennis on Hellblazer? Forget about it, Alan Moore never got a chance to create the character. Now it's 1991 and Swamp Thing is a member of the JLA trading jokes with Booster Gold and Blue Beetle and Vertigo is something you get trying to "read" the latest Rob Leifeld book.

 

Then Image comes along with all its flash and no story philosophy, sells a trillion books, and solidifies in the minds of the powers that be that comic books are solely a visual medium that any ten year old could "write." That means no Kurt Busiek on Marvels (what happens to Alex Ross, then?), Peter David and Mark Waid are reigned in creatively, and perhaps Dark Horse doesn't take a chance on Sin City.

 

Then the crash happens, and the Big Two are even less inclined to "go outside the box" creatively. That means no Warren Ellis, no James Robinson, and Kevin Smith has to actually perform some of those sexual acts he jokes about so often to get any work in the comic industry.

 

Can you see where I'm ultimately going with this? In the end, JMS and Jeph Loeb stay in television (not necessarily a bad thing ), Brian Azzarello, Greg Rucka, and Ed Brubaker are nobodies, and Brian Michael Bendis is off writing David Mamet-like plays or something.

 

And us fans? We're either carping about the sorry state of story telling today, or anxiously awaiting the latest issues of Spawn and (a Millar-less) Youngblood.

 

So yeah, I think we owe a lot to Alan Moore and Swamp Thing #21.

 

Nerd.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PedigreeMan]

while Swamp Thing 20 onwards was a whole new genre for comics.

 

I am a BIG Moore fan but even I have to disagree with this.

 

I disagree.

 

Incidentally, here's what I wrote a few months back on why Moore's reinvention of Swamp Thing was the most important book of the '80s:

 

Geek rant redacted.

 

Nerd.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And that was just off the top of my head! Imagine what I could have come up with if I had really thought about it!

[chrisco37]

I voted for that upstart, Frank Miller.

 

Miller's first really great work. The ultimate comic book love story. It's one you can read again and again and it's just as good every time.

 

All that and that classic cover!!!!

[uclapeterg]

Go T-E-E-N T-I-T-A-N-S - LET'S GO!