Sweet 16, Round 5: Daredevil #168 vs New Teen Titans #1 (1980)

[FFB]

I voted for that upstart, Frank Miller.

 

Miller's first really great work. The ultimate comic book love story. It's one you can read again and again and it's just as good every time.

 

All that and that classic cover!!!!

 

You know, you seem . . . smarter lately. Been eating lots of fish and other brain food?

[chrisco37]

I voted for that upstart, Frank Miller.

 

Miller's first really great work. The ultimate comic book love story. It's one you can read again and again and it's just as good every time.

 

All that and that classic cover!!!!

 

You know, you seem . . . smarter lately. Been eating lots of fish and other brain food?

 

I did have salmon for dinner.

[tilleycs]

You know, you seem . . . smarter lately. Been eating lots of fish and other brain food?

 

I did have salmon for dinner.

 

Psst...no, your line was supposed to be, "No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night!"

[supapimp]

this is a no brainer.

[FFB]

I voted for that upstart, Frank Miller.

 

Miller's first really great work. The ultimate comic book love story. It's one you can read again and again and it's just as good every time.

 

All that and that classic cover!!!!

 

You know, you seem . . . smarter lately. Been eating lots of fish and other brain food?

 

I did have salmon for dinner.

 

Probably for the first time in a long while, judging from your historical Moore obsession.

 

[goldust40]

I voted for that upstart, Frank Miller.

 

Miller's first really great work. The ultimate comic book love story. It's one you can read again and again and it's just as good every time.

 

All that and that classic cover!!!!

 

You know, you seem . . . smarter lately. Been eating lots of fish and other brain food?

 

Nope, he's leading you Millerites into a false sense of security before the aforementioned upstart is rightfully dispatched to the realm of the also-rans.

 

Miller may be an auteur, but Moore is the visionary. So there.

[towards2112]

With due respect to the donutted one who still doesn't remember me....

DC also brought out about the same time...Welcome back Kotter,

and SHazam, and ISIS, and gobs more pablum....

[chrisco37]

I voted for that upstart, Frank Miller.

 

Miller's first really great work. The ultimate comic book love story. It's one you can read again and again and it's just as good every time.

 

All that and that classic cover!!!!

 

You know, you seem . . . smarter lately. Been eating lots of fish and other brain food?

 

I did have salmon for dinner.

 

Probably for the first time in a long while, judging from your historical Moore obsession.

 

 

I'm just advancing Miller so the fatal blow can be delivered by the master.

 

Edit: Wow! I was a little late with that comment. Apologies to Andy.

[goldust40]

I voted for that upstart, Frank Miller.

 

Miller's first really great work. The ultimate comic book love story. It's one you can read again and again and it's just as good every time.

 

All that and that classic cover!!!!

 

You know, you seem . . . smarter lately. Been eating lots of fish and other brain food?

 

I did have salmon for dinner.

 

Probably for the first time in a long while, judging from your historical Moore obsession.

 

 

I'm just advancing Miller so the fatal blow can be delivered by the master.

 

Yes, grasshopper, that is the game plan.

[PedigreeMan]

Can we just jump right to the inevitable DKR vs. Watchmen matchup that Alex is so obviously steering this competition towards? I'm curious to see how many shills pop out of the woodwork for that one. I'll laugh my off if the final vote tallies end up being in the hundreds. I'll laugh even harder if it ended in a tie....

[FlyingDonut]

With due respect to the donutted one who still doesn't remember me....

DC also brought out about the same time...Welcome back Kotter,

and SHazam, and ISIS, and gobs more pablum....

 

I don't remember you....

 

And that's my point entirely. NTT 1 was the first book in years that wasn't pablum.

 

People simply don't have the historical background here - it is hard to explain just how bad DC was in 1980. Yes NTT may have been a X-Men ripoff - but it was a damn good one, and one that turned DC around.

[goldust40]

Can we just jump right to the inevitable DKR vs. Watchmen matchup that Alex is so obviously steering this competition towards? I'm curious to see how many shills pop out of the woodwork for that one. I'll laugh my off if the final vote tallies end up being in the hundreds. I'll laugh even harder if it ended in a tie....

 

I think GS X-Men 1 could be in with a shout.

[awe4one]

People simply don't have the historical background here - it is hard to explain just how bad DC was in 1980. Yes NTT may have been a X-Men ripoff - but it was a damn good one, and one that turned DC around.

 

I tend to think of NNT as more inspired by X-Men than ripped off. People forget that Teen Titans was a much better book than X-Men after Byrne left...

 

NNT was a critical event in turning around DC's fortunes. As Donut said, DC was a wasteland of cr@p until NTT gave DC the spark to turn things around. That in itself makes the issue more important than the 1st App of a 2nd rate character who managed to have been made into a medicore movie...

 

Jim

[AlexH]

Can we just jump right to the inevitable DKR vs. Watchmen matchup that Alex is so obviously steering this competition towards? I'm curious to see how many shills pop out of the woodwork for that one. I'll laugh my off if the final vote tallies end up being in the hundreds. I'll laugh even harder if it ended in a tie....

 

Congratulations, you've seen right through me. I really just wanted to see who would win between DKR and Watchmen. I was just using the other 81 books in this competition to trick you.

 

Thanks for trusting me.

[rob_react]

That in itself makes the issue more important than the 1st App of a 2nd rate character who managed to have been made into a medicore movie...

 

DD 168 is also the first time Frank Miller worked as a writer in comics. If you're unsure as to how important "Frank Miller the writer" is check out the sales charts for All Star Batman and Robin this summer.

[Tango 'n Cash]

while Swamp Thing 20 onwards was a whole new genre for comics.

 

I am a BIG Moore fan but even I have to disagree with this.

 

I meant begat, initiated or kickstarted a whole new genre that would eventually become an imprint with conventions specific to it etc - that sentence wasn't written clearly enough. And you are entitled to your opinion, although I'd like details behind your arguments rather than mere gainsaying.

 

How about that Moore did not invent a *whole new* genre. Adult comics of many types have been around for a long time, especially in the independent publishers, and stating that Moore's Swamp Thing created a new genre (one that never ever existed before) is pure hogwash.

 

Sorry, but it is.

[rob_react]

while Swamp Thing 20 onwards was a whole new genre for comics.

 

I am a BIG Moore fan but even I have to disagree with this.

 

I meant begat, initiated or kickstarted a whole new genre that would eventually become an imprint with conventions specific to it etc - that sentence wasn't written clearly enough. And you are entitled to your opinion, although I'd like details behind your arguments rather than mere gainsaying.

 

How about that Moore did not invent a *whole new* genre. Adult comics of many types have been around for a long time, especially in the independent publishers, and stating that Moore's Swamp Thing created a new genre (one that never ever existed before) is pure hogwash.

 

Semantics aside, and that's what it seems like you're arguing here, Moore's Swamp Thing is obviously the first title in what would later become the Vertigo line. It's not a question of genre, but of approach since the Vertigo line encompasses several genre.

[bobpfef]

while Swamp Thing 20 onwards was a whole new genre for comics.

 

I am a BIG Moore fan but even I have to disagree with this.

 

I meant begat, initiated or kickstarted a whole new genre that would eventually become an imprint with conventions specific to it etc - that sentence wasn't written clearly enough. And you are entitled to your opinion, although I'd like details behind your arguments rather than mere gainsaying.

 

How about that Moore did not invent a *whole new* genre. Adult comics of many types have been around for a long time, especially in the independent publishers, and stating that Moore's Swamp Thing created a new genre (one that never ever existed before) is pure hogwash.

 

Sorry, but it is.

 

What independent publishers are you talking about? In the early 80s we had, Pacific. which had some decent books but nothing up to the level of Moore ST. Or the really early days of Capital, and, again, while Nexus is niffy it is just a fun comic... Dark Horse, Fantagraphics, Eclipse, etc all came later AFTER Moores early ST stuff.

 

Or are you talking about undergrounds? Funny how just putting a lot of sex and drugs in the comics made them "adult"?

 

ST #21 was revolutionary when it came out.

[awe4one]

DD 168 is also the first time Frank Miller worked as a writer in comics. If you're unsure as to how important "Frank Miller the writer" is check out the sales charts for All Star Batman and Robin this summer.

 

Rob Liefeld can sell comics also...so whats your point?

 

And All Star has as much chance to rival Dark Knight Strikes Again than approach anything close to DKR. Crapola. Frankly some of the shine has fallen off Frank Miller and he isn't necessarily the "important" writer he used to be.

 

If you want to take his Daredevil run together as a whole against NTT #1 I'd be more apt to agree with you. #168 only? Not even close...

 

Jim

[rob_react]

DD 168 is also the first time Frank Miller worked as a writer in comics. If you're unsure as to how important "Frank Miller the writer" is check out the sales charts for All Star Batman and Robin this summer.

 

Rob Liefeld can sell comics also...so whats your point?

 

Liefeld can't even sniff at the sales that Frank Miller brings even these days. At one small moment in time maybe Liefeld surpassed all but a few people, but these days he's lucky to make it into the Top 25. All Star Batman and Robin will be HUGE.

 

And All Star has as much chance to rival Dark Knight Strikes Again than approach anything close to DKR. Crapola. Frankly some of the shine has fallen off Frank Miller and he isn't necessarily the "important" writer he used to be.

 

To you maybe he's no longer "important", but there are a lot of people who would strongly disagree with you on that point, DKSA or no DKSA. I mean, did one poor series suddenly mean he was no longer the guy behind Sin City, DKR, Year One, Daredevil, DD: The Man Without Fear; DD: Born Again, etc.?