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New podcast/video from Felix Comic Art (UPDATED 1/3/17!)
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1,647 posts in this topic

thanks for the new episode, halfway through it, entertaining as always Felix.

Found it a little odd that Dave calls it the best piece HA has ever had, and then compares it to a color guide.    Comic collectors do tend to struggle with painted pieces which I always find weird since in the field I collect that's the norm, and black and white pieces are discounted instead.     Just goes to show how arbitrary all these collecting rules we grow up with are, and how fast they can change!     (and are changing, in fact). 

Some interesting insights from Dave in other areas.   Certainly agree with his thoughts on newer collectors being more interested in pumping/dumping/dealing/flipping than "we" were in the past, but I really can't criticize the new collector.     Dave was spending "crazy" money at 1k/page on DKR.    Today's collector has to spend such big amounts in today's marketplace for decent material that I think they have had to adapt and make their money work as much as possible in order to compete.    I.e. if you had dropped our generation into as punishing an environment, I doubt our generation would have done it any differently.   It turns me off, but I believe I understand why the newer guys act that way.

Off to listen to the rest.   Good show as always.

 

Edited by Bronty
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Thanks for another great listen, Felix and Dave!

I must admit I was screaming "they're not color guides" throughout the first part of the interview/discussion. Now that I've had some time away I get where the guys are coming from... In the hobby there's B&W line art and then there is the production art (color guides, plates, etc.), and the two simply aren't equivalent.

That having been said, Lynn Varley's Dark Knight color guides are distinct for being the paintings from which the printed images were made, which makes them different from the color guides by Glynis Oliver, which are notes to the printer on what inks to mix and apply to the plates. (The difference is really obvious if you look at traditional color guides, which might be in color but also (I think always) include alpha-numeric notes on the color levels so that the people doing the printing don't need to translate the colors themselves. 

TLDR, I think this is a distinction that matters because what you're buying with the Varley art is not guide to the printer, but rather the final production art. In this respect, they're maybe more comparable to inks on vellum or over blue lines than they are to color guides. And in case anyone is wondering, I do not now, nor have I ever, owned Lynn Varley color art (or whatever we want to call it), or any other color art. I'm just a words-guy and a process nerd, hence this nit-picky post!

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On 6/20/2022 at 7:40 AM, Bronty said:

thanks for the new episode, halfway through it, entertaining as always Felix.

Found it a little odd that Dave calls it the best piece HA has ever had, and then compares it to a color guide.    Comic collectors do tend to struggle with painted pieces which I always find weird since in the field I collect that's the norm, and black and white pieces are discounted instead.     Just goes to show how arbitrary all these collecting rules we grow up with are, and how fast they can change!     (and are changing, in fact).

Thanks, Dan!

I don't think there's any struggle with painted pieces...by the primary artist. When one artist does it all. That's not color guides.

At the same time, Varley's paintings aren't your average color guides, either. And why the #1 cover is a bit fuzzy. Because she's so damn good. But whatever the cover is or isn't, it's likely we'll have more consensus over time. Or at least be more at peace with it all. Like I've said before, in the end, it's indisputably the #1 cover. All else will just be details the further away we go.

On 6/20/2022 at 7:40 AM, Bronty said:

Some interesting insights from Dave in other areas.   Certainly agree with his thoughts on newer collectors being more interested in pumping/dumping/dealing/flipping than "we" were in the past, but I really can't criticize the new collector.     Dave was spending "crazy" money at 1k/page on DKR.    Today's collector has to spend such big amounts in today's marketplace for decent material that I think they have had to adapt and make their money work as much as possible in order to compete.    I.e. if you had dropped our generation into as punishing an environment, I doubt our generation would have done it any differently.   It turns me off, but I believe I understand why the newer guys act that way

I understand, too. However, while it's certainly harder to get a foothold in the hobby than ever before, due to exponentially increasing values, I don't believe it's especially punishing. Because no one's losing their shirts. Everyone's a genius/winner when everything (or what feels like everything) only goes up. If/when that changes, we'll get a better sense of what's what.

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On 6/20/2022 at 9:08 AM, Natty Bumpo said:

Thanks for another great listen, Felix and Dave!

I must admit I was screaming "they're not color guides" throughout the first part of the interview/discussion. Now that I've had some time away I get where the guys are coming from... In the hobby there's B&W line art and then there is the production art (color guides, plates, etc.), and the two simply aren't equivalent.

That having been said, Lynn Varley's Dark Knight color guides are distinct for being the paintings from which the printed images were made, which makes them different from the color guides by Glynis Oliver, which are notes to the printer on what inks to mix and apply to the plates. (The difference is really obvious if you look at traditional color guides, which might be in color but also (I think always) include alpha-numeric notes on the color levels so that the people doing the printing don't need to translate the colors themselves. 

TLDR, I think this is a distinction that matters because what you're buying with the Varley art is not guide to the printer, but rather the final production art. In this respect, they're maybe more comparable to inks on vellum or over blue lines than they are to color guides. And in case anyone is wondering, I do not now, nor have I ever, owned Lynn Varley color art (or whatever we want to call it), or any other color art. I'm just a words-guy and a process nerd, hence this nit-picky post!

Totally agree. LOVE Varley's work. My favorite color work ever. "Color guide" or not, though, still have no interest in owning one at market value.

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On 6/20/2022 at 12:19 PM, Nexus said:

Thanks, Dan!

I don't think there's any struggle with painted pieces...by the primary artist. When one artist does it all. That's not color guides.

At the same time, Varley's paintings aren't your average color guides, either. And why the #1 cover is a bit fuzzy. Because she's so damn good. But whatever the cover is or isn't, it's likely we'll have more consensus over time. Or at least be more at peace with it all. Like I've said before, in the end, it's indisputably the #1 cover. All else will just be details the further away we go.

I understand, too. However, while it's certainly harder to get a foothold in the hobby than ever before, due to exponentially increasing values, I don't believe it's especially punishing. Because no one's losing their shirts. Everyone's a genius/winner when everything (or what feels like everything) only goes up. If/when that changes, we'll get a better sense of what's what.

1.   Of course.   I find it funny that its even a conversation.

2.   That's a great point.    Maybe the only thing separating the generations of collectors then is the fact that you just couldn't flip as easily in our day.     Food for thought.    (I think human nature among large groups of people is mostly what it is, so I have trouble saying the new guys suck and the old guys are awesome; there has to be something else there that shaped both generations relating to the collecting environment). 

Edited by Bronty
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Ok I have to say Dave Mandel is one of the most entertaining guys in the hobby, no wonder he makes his living writing comedy! I always look forward to hearing his thoughts on the hobby and I also enjoy the fact that he’s not afraid to speak his mind … great interview(s)! 

I have listened to all his “the stuff dreams are made of” podcasts. On that podcast Dave talks prop collecting, Dave and his cohost Ryan are knocking it out of the park on every episode!!! 
 

Thanks Dave and Felix!!!

Edited by gumbydarnit
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On 6/20/2022 at 7:40 AM, Bronty said:

thanks for the new episode, halfway through it, entertaining as always Felix.

Found it a little odd that Dave calls it the best piece HA has ever had, and then compares it to a color guide.    Comic collectors do tend to struggle with painted pieces which I always find weird since in the field I collect that's the norm, and black and white pieces are discounted instead.     Just goes to show how arbitrary all these collecting rules we grow up with are, and how fast they can change!     (and are changing, in fact). 

Some interesting insights from Dave in other areas.   Certainly agree with his thoughts on newer collectors being more interested in pumping/dumping/dealing/flipping than "we" were in the past, but I really can't criticize the new collector.     Dave was spending "crazy" money at 1k/page on DKR.    Today's collector has to spend such big amounts in today's marketplace for decent material that I think they have had to adapt and make their money work as much as possible in order to compete.    I.e. if you had dropped our generation into as punishing an environment, I doubt our generation would have done it any differently.   It turns me off, but I believe I understand why the newer guys act that way.

Off to listen to the rest.   Good show as always.

 

I do not consider color guides as painted original artwork. Since color guides are done over copies of inked artwork then not all original. I own some, have a set matching the complete issue I own,  the other I am missing on original inked page but have all the color guides for the book. As for the Dark Knight Returns cover, never was a fan of Frank's art on the book, thought the writing and story was much better. The DKR #1 cover is really bland for me, just a silhouette blob on ink and a lightning bolt. #2 has more art to me and that is Batman taking a dump. That one sold for $478K 5 years ago, wonder what it will do today.

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On 6/20/2022 at 2:30 AM, Nexus said:

The original art cover for Frank Miller's THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS #1 has just sold at auction for 2.4 million dollars...and who better to talk to us about it than the King of DKR art collectors, David Mandel. Hear Dave's take on the art, the auction, and what it all means for the OA hobby at large. As usual, Dave doesn't hold back! To the point where we may be asked to take this down. It's happened before. So listen while you can!

The Felix Comic Art Podcast (Episode 50): David Mandel and THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS #1

That's all in the first hour. As a bonus we've also included two recent podcasts from our friends Christian Mongaard and Casey Lau. Their guest? It's Dave again! So if you just can't get enough Dave, we've got FOUR more hours for you! Thanks to Christian and Casey for letting us share their shows!

It's DKR. It's Dave Mandel. Enjoy!

Felix

Thanks @Nexus I learned a lot from this one. 

Dave peered into the future of comic art and left me with a striking image that I can't shake.....

 

 

The Future of Comic Art.jpg

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On 6/22/2022 at 1:50 PM, J.Sid said:

If not for the aberration that was the Secret Wars 8 page, we would all be cheering the 2.4M DK result and proclaiming Miller the king of comics.

Don't know, I think that SW result just stands out too much. Especially since it was an interior vs a cover 

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On 6/22/2022 at 1:50 PM, J.Sid said:

If not for the aberration that was the Secret Wars 8 page, we would all be cheering the 2.4M DK result and proclaiming Miller the king of comics.

Not me; $2m hammer is simply not impressive, the Egyptian Queen overhang would still remain too.

On 6/22/2022 at 2:18 PM, BVladimirHarkonnen said:

Don't know, I think that SW result just stands out too much. Especially since it was an interior vs a cover 

I'm surprised that there's anybody that's been in this hobby for more than 6 months that didn't throw that result out the day after it happened.

Yes...it was exciting, and amazing but...also reeked of aberration without confirmation. Confirmation requires "more of the same for the same".

It was never going to be a benchmark, or rather not without 3-5 follow-on comps (similar caliber not same artist/title/book combo) in the same region.

DKR1 was definitely a test. A test for the upmost echelon of the hobby. It failed.

It's just one test. There can/will be others, particularly if a certain Hulk cover comes to public sale in the near future. Maybe the hobby will confirm there. Maybe. But man, that number had better be a new all-time high, inclusive of Egyptian Queen, to do so.

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