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BB28 from an 8.0 to a 9.0??????????

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Doesn't this still fall back on "REPUTABLE dealers to know something. What if you were to ask the question about the book AND they didn't let you know this little detail. Then what?

 

Rube

 

You won't know until you ask. Email comiclink and comgeek and ask if the book was pressed.

 

A little late now I suspect...

 

Jim

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If I was the original owner of the book, the only person I could be p.o.'d at would be me. Why didn't I think to get the book pressed and get a 9.0 and thus an extra $10k? CGC didn't cost you anything. You submitted a book, and it only graded at (x); pressing isn't resto, and so they graded it post press and guess what? it came back HIGHER! That's CGC grading the book because it actually was different the second time around. Somebody else capitalized on my mistake and used the system in place to make themselves more money. It's not illegal. Hell, we're having a debate about whether or not it's even truly unethical.

 

Listen, we'd all like to know if the book has been pressed, but there's too much money on the table for dealers to start disclosing pressing. Sometimes they get books, and they have no idea if it's been pressed. In this case, I'm sure it was bought with the intent of pressing it and hoping to get a higher grade.

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To make it even worse... the owner of the 8.0 must be all the more peeved to see how crahppy the 9.0 looks. Even after having potential work done to improve it.

 

Not a huge improvement either way.. the 8.0 mighta been undergraded, and the 9.0 over.. but in the end.. the 8.0 seller still must be shaking his head.

 

Or sobbing... sorry.gif

 

Ze-

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If I was the original owner of the book, the only person I could be p.o.'d at would be me. Why didn't I think to get the book pressed and get a 9.0 and thus an extra $10k? CGC didn't cost you anything. You submitted a book, and it only graded at (x); pressing isn't resto, and so they graded it post press and guess what? it came back HIGHER! That's CGC grading the book because it actually was different the second time around. Somebody else capitalized on my mistake and used the system in place to make themselves more money. It's not illegal. Hell, we're having a debate about whether or not it's even truly unethical.

 

Listen, we'd all like to know if the book has been pressed, but there's too much money on the table for dealers to start disclosing pressing. Sometimes they get books, and they have no idea if it's been pressed. In this case, I'm sure it was bought with the intent of pressing it and hoping to get a higher grade.

 

Reread my quote I said if the book had NOT been pressed. IE it was just a resub. Trying to play Devil's Advocate. Brad had indicated that the pressing was speculated and I reply, "Well if it hadn't been pressed then CGC blew it and I'd really be pissed if I was the 5K seller."

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Not really the point Red, it is the same book pressed out knowingly to increase the value. Plus sell it to unsuspecting collectors who might or might not care. Someone should explain that with the listing.

 

Rube

My question may surprise you.

 

Why is he obligated to explain that? It's a hell of a flip, if he gets anything in the way of what he is asking for it, and it might or might not have been worked on. But aside from a buyer's wish-list of seller disclosures......there is nothing compelling the guy to say anything. It's got the label, it's in the slab. This is kinda' old news in a way. It's a great example of what might motivate someone to press a book, but again, be real. No one's going to say anything, because pressing is an accepted practice and has CGC's blessing.

 

One other thing....what makes you so sure books are all "sent out" for pressing? I think there is a possiblity of growing "at home" pressing by high end dealers. Practice on a enough low-end books and you might start hitting the high enders. Not saying this is the case here.

 

Simply because the practice may be "accepted" is no excuse. For one thing, I don't believe the practice is accepted. I think it has been silently abused by a minority and imposed on an unknowing majority population who now are alert to its existence but primarily shrug their shoulders and say, "well, what am I to do?"

 

There are many things that can be done. I could go through a laundry list of previously "accepted" practices in the history of the US and the world that ultimately became unaccepted. Nor should CGC's "blessing" be considered the end all of the discucssion/debate. CGC, as much as I like it (and I cannot stress that enough), is not the Comic God. CGC is a business and it can be influenced, presumably, by its customer base like any other business.

 

I am not going to repeat ad nauseam all the arguments pro/con pressing, but one thing this thread clearly reveals is that for certain high grade books that are not typically seen for sale (not even just pedigrees), thanks to the existence of available scans on e-bay (at least for 90 days after the auctions) and Heritage, those who take the time can determine that some sort of artificial change has occurred to the book, presuming of course the conclusion that this book has been pressed is correct.

 

That presumption is the $64,000 question. Someone should, and I intend to do so as well, directly contact Josh and Comgeek (assuming he is the seller, or ask him who he sold it to) and ask whether the book has been pressed. If pressing is so "accepted", they should have no hesitation in answering the question honestly.

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Mark,

 

I disagree. I think that pressing is generally accepted, and I'm one of the people who has repeatedly stated that I could care less if a book is pressed UNLESS someone could show me evidence that pressing the book causes long term damage. I haven't seen anything like that.

 

If any of us could detect a good press job with the naked eye on a regular basis then it would make it a lot easier to call. The problem is, if you weren't the original owner of the book, and it has already been pressed, how do you tell for sure that's it's been pressed?

 

If we start the disclosure process now, will the previously pressed books still be sold as not pressed if nobody can tell for sure?

 

To me, I think this whole pressing nonsense is blown way, way, way, way, way out of proportion. I would rather have it disclosed, but honestly, if it doesn't harm the book, and it doesn't add anything artificial to the book, why should it be that big of a deal. People would like to know, but you aren't going to get the dealer community to fess up because there's too much money at stake. And in this case, it's hard for the consumers to enact change. How are you going to do that? Not buy pressed books. Demand CGC change their policy? What, is everyone going to stop using CGC all of a sudden? Unless it affects their bottom line, no business is going to suddenly alter a practice that has been successful to this point. Since we consumers can't tell with regularity when the book has been pressed I think we exercise very little control over the situation.

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Mark,

 

I've separated my desire for a perfect world where dealers do not press, from the reality that pressing is standard operating procedure among dealers. I would be very surprised to find any dealers that have not explored pressing. That doesn't mean I like it.

 

You can go face to face with any dealer you want, and unless you have them under oath in a courtroom, what would be their motivation to reveal anything to you?

 

Perhaps down the road, someone like you will initiate a lawsuit and shake things up, but you're going to have a hard time proving intent, especially when the actual issue of pressing is still an open one. There are no laws against pressing. And there is no reliable way to detect a professional press job as far as I know. There is enough deniability built into the system as it is now that the what you are suggesting is a fantastical scenario.

 

I ask again....what's the dealers motivation to reveal anything to you? If he says he doesn't know, then how will you prove him wrong?

 

Look, I think pressing is restoration. So what do I do about it? All I can do is perhaps increase the odds of getting burned by not throwing big bucks at any books ( I don't have them anyway, so that's easy), I will pick an older label over a newer one (just reducing the odds of it being a resub), and I don't normally chase 9.6s. I will not pay nutty money for a book with a new lable, and I would do as good a search of past auctions that I could as a less-than-efficient background check. But sometimes it works.

 

Now, when you're ready to lead a real legal revolution, let me know. But cornering a dealer and trying to get them to admit something is not realistic at this point in time.

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drb, is it time for your "Dear God" image? insane.gif

 

I'm afraid it wouldn't help...the "pressing" thread of the day has been born. foreheadslap.gif

 

Hey, just think of it as "Watching the Detectives!" Our new logo!!!!! Custom job. If you see this logo in a thread, avert your eyes! 27_laughing.gif

 

detective.jpg

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I sure wish there was a system in place where Key, High dollar books submitted to CGC would be cross referenced against their own scan database of all the known,same issue submited/graded books to see if the book in hand is a recent crack/press/resub/flip comic. In an attempt to deter greed motivated sellers from abusing the current CGC 10.0 grading scale, and labeling system"

 

Steve has repeatedly said CGC isn't structured nor do they have the time to check to see if comics have previously been graded... frustrated.gif

 

For the record...I'd like to see them institute a cross reference system as well...

 

Jim

 

scanning isn't the only way they would be able to keep track of books that have already come in. unfortunately, methods i can currently think of off the top of my head all involve altering the book in permanent, even though invisible, ways. which is it's own can of worms...and forgeable to the most enterprising of con "artists"

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I would throw out the comment that it is VERY possible this was not pressed. There are certain people who are willing to take gambles and purchase books that look undergraded, and resubmit them as never having been graded. In a book of this caliber, he may have thought this was a solid 8.5 and could get a nice chunk of change if it came back as such. Maybe he submitted it and it actually came back as a 9.0!

 

One of the very first books I submitted to CGC was an absolutely stunning JIM 88. It came back 9.2. I sold it on ebay for about $1800. However, the person I sold it to cracked it and resubmitted it and got a 9.4. He sold it on ebay 3 months after he bought it from me for about $5000. I don't think any pressing was involved because the book was absolutely gorgeous. I think it was undergraded the first time out and got an appropriate grade on the resub. My only regret is that i didn't have the foresight to do it.

 

I'd be curious to hear from Comgeek before he is tarred and feathered as a presser. Like someone said, he may have pressed it. He may have sold it to someone else who pressed it. Or he (or someone he sold it to) may have done a simple resub and got a generous grade.

 

Perhaps we should hold off on the Spanish Inquisition until some actual FACTS surface. confused-smiley-013.gif

 

tt3.jpg

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Mark,

 

I've separated my desire for a perfect world where dealers do not press, from the reality that pressing is standard operating procedure among dealers. I would be very surprised to find any dealers that have not explored pressing. That doesn't mean I like it.

 

You can go face to face with any dealer you want, and unless you have them under oath in a courtroom, what would be their motivation to reveal anything to you?

 

Perhaps down the road, someone like you will initiate a lawsuit and shake things up, but you're going to have a hard time proving intent, especially when the actual issue of pressing is still an open one. There are no laws against pressing. And there is no reliable way to detect a professional press job as far as I know. There is enough deniability built into the system as it is now that the what you are suggesting is a fantastical scenario.

 

I ask again....what's the dealers motivation to reveal anything to you? If he says he doesn't know, then how will you prove him wrong?

 

Look, I think pressing is restoration. So what do I do about it? All I can do is perhaps increase the odds of getting burned by not throwing big bucks at any books ( I don't have them anyway, so that's easy), I will pick an older label over a newer one (just reducing the odds of it being a resub), and I don't normally chase 9.6s. I will not pay nutty money for a book with a new lable, and I would do as good a search of past auctions that I could as a less-than-efficient background check. But sometimes it works.

 

Now, when you're ready to lead a real legal revolution, let me know. But cornering a dealer and trying to get them to admit something is not realistic at this point in time.

 

My intent is not to turn this into yet another pressing debate, and the ins and outs of disclosure. I don't want to be known as the anti-pressing dealer on a crusade, I want to be known as the dealer who has integrity, can be trusted and, to top it all off, a great inventory!

 

That said, I do think there are legal issues involved with undisclosed pressing. Other hobbies, such as coins and baseball cards, have experienced similar circumstances and the courts and the FTC ultimately stepped in. Perhaps we are not there yet for comics, but these discussions are a start. And if it takes scaring a seller with the possibility of public exposure or legal action into being more honest with potential buyers, so be it.

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Mark,

 

I've separated my desire for a perfect world where dealers do not press, from the reality that pressing is standard operating procedure among dealers. I would be very surprised to find any dealers that have not explored pressing. That doesn't mean I like it.

 

You can go face to face with any dealer you want, and unless you have them under oath in a courtroom, what would be their motivation to reveal anything to you?

 

Perhaps down the road, someone like you will initiate a lawsuit and shake things up, but you're going to have a hard time proving intent, especially when the actual issue of pressing is still an open one. There are no laws against pressing. And there is no reliable way to detect a professional press job as far as I know. There is enough deniability built into the system as it is now that the what you are suggesting is a fantastical scenario.

 

I ask again....what's the dealers motivation to reveal anything to you? If he says he doesn't know, then how will you prove him wrong?

 

Look, I think pressing is restoration. So what do I do about it? All I can do is perhaps increase the odds of getting burned by not throwing big bucks at any books ( I don't have them anyway, so that's easy), I will pick an older label over a newer one (just reducing the odds of it being a resub), and I don't normally chase 9.6s. I will not pay nutty money for a book with a new lable, and I would do as good a search of past auctions that I could as a less-than-efficient background check. But sometimes it works.

 

Now, when you're ready to lead a real legal revolution, let me know. But cornering a dealer and trying to get them to admit something is not realistic at this point in time.

 

well-said, Brad............i find myself agreeing with most of your points.......

 

my problem with this whole scenario is a bit different from what's been said so far; IF the seller of the current CGC 9.0 had, in fact, pressed the book from a CGC graded 8.0 after buying it only 4 months ago, then i'm most pizzed at him asking 5 times the original buying price!!! 893whatthe.gif

 

pressing is not as much a problem for me as many others (as i've openly stated many times already) and i would purchase a pressed book at an unpressed rate, if it were something i really wanted. BUT, i sure as hell wouldn't cough up this kinda dough and would resent the seller for allegedly trying to pull this off.....................IMHO.

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scanning isn't the only way they would be able to keep track of books that have already come in.

 

Sure...but scan referencing is the most practical at this time. And until something more suitable comes along, any cross referencing system would be welcomed...

 

Jim

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