• When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

BB28 from an 8.0 to a 9.0??????????

Started by rube11,

261 posts in this topic

Mushroom

Mushroom

Posted
Posted
That presumption is the $64,000 question. Someone should, and I intend to do so as well, directly contact Josh and Comgeek (assuming he is the seller, or ask him who he sold it to) and ask whether the book has been pressed. If pressing is so "accepted", they should have no hesitation in answering the question honestly.

 

You all know that I am vehemently opposed to non-disclosed pressing and that I am vehemently opposed to CGC's stance and I have not bought a CGC book since this all blew up, however, COMGEEK is a reputable dealer, if you ask a question he will give you an honest answer. I know this because I did ask the question 6 months ago and he gave me an honest response.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
esquirecomics

esquirecomics

Posted
Posted
Here's a (potentially) worse scenario...

 

What if the book hasn't been pressed? What if it's a simple resub?

 

Would the original seller not have recourse to the law, on the basis that he was shafted by the incompetance and/or discrimination exhibited by CGC? That exactly the same book was determined to be in a certain grade at one point in time and then, less than four months later, it was determined to be in a different (more profitable) condition, without any work being done to it?

 

Bear in mind here that, in the real world, time is only likely to cause deterioration, not improvement.

 

Also bear in mind that, although CGC doesn't 'guarantee' a grade, surely they must have some internal consistancy?

 

Hey, if this has been pressed (and I think it has), this won't apply.

 

But how many other re-subs could it apply to?

 

Just a thought, that I'm sure will be shot down in short order.

 

3....

 

 

2....

 

 

1....

 

This is a far more difficult legal premise, if it is at all legally actionable. For one thing, CGC is not promising they are the end all to grading or that they will provide a particular grade. They offer an independent service. The consistency in their grading comes from a limited number of graders continually grading books, but each of those graders suffer from the same human frailties of subjectiveness as the rest of us. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder for women and comic books alike.

 

When a seller sells a CGC book, all he/she does is note the CGC grade and that is, in fact, what a buyer is purchasing. To that extent there is no fraud or deception on the part of the seller. Whether that CGC grade is accurate is another story, but it is certainly not the fault of the seller. Nor do most sellers that I know ever guarantee the grade in a CGC holder.

 

What resubbing shows is the human aspects of CGC. I don't like it. Perhaps you don't like it. Probably everyone who has not resubbed and received a higher grade doesn't like it. But until CGC creates a system that allows them to identify and track books we will no doubt continue to see evidence of resubbing.

 

Now, where should this discussion go besides CGC exploring the possibility of tracking? There is very little distinction between a 9.0 and 9.2, or between most half-grade steps. A difference in opinion between two graders, and perhaps even the same grader on different days, of this degree is not cause for serious concern though any lack of consistency is disappointing.

 

However, if a book is resubbed and receives a new grade of more (or less) than 1 point and above, then that is cause for concern. I would hope that when CGC becomes aware of such instances someone there who oversees graders would check to see who graded those specific books and their respective notes and see if one or more graders need to receive a refresher course in grading.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Flaming_Telepath

Flaming_Telepath

Posted
Posted
Here's a (potentially) worse scenario...

 

What if the book hasn't been pressed? What if it's a simple resub?

 

Would the original seller not have recourse to the law, on the basis that he was shafted by the incompetance and/or discrimination exhibited by CGC? That exactly the same book was determined to be in a certain grade at one point in time and then, less than four months later, it was determined to be in a different (more profitable) condition, without any work being done to it?

 

Bear in mind here that, in the real world, time is only likely to cause deterioration, not improvement.

 

Also bear in mind that, although CGC doesn't 'guarantee' a grade, surely they must have some internal consistancy?

 

Hey, if this has been pressed (and I think it has), this won't apply.

 

But how many other re-subs could it apply to?

 

Just a thought, that I'm sure will be shot down in short order.

 

3....

 

 

2....

 

 

1....

 

This is a far more difficult legal premise, if it is at all legally actionable. For one thing, CGC is not promising they are the end all to grading or that they will provide a particular grade. They offer an independent service. The consistency in their grading comes from a limited number of graders continually grading books, but each of those graders suffer from the same human frailties of subjectiveness as the rest of us. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder for women and comic books alike.

 

When a seller sells a CGC book, all he/she does is note the CGC grade and that is, in fact, what a buyer is purchasing. To that extent there is no fraud or deception on the part of the seller. Whether that CGC grade is accurate is another story, but it is certainly not the fault of the seller. Nor do most sellers that I know ever guarantee the grade in a CGC holder.

 

What resubbing shows is the human aspects of CGC. I don't like it. Perhaps you don't like it. Probably everyone who has not resubbed and received a higher grade doesn't like it. But until CGC creates a system that allows them to identify and track books we will no doubt continue to see evidence of resubbing.

 

Now, where should this discussion go besides CGC exploring the possibility of tracking? There is very little distinction between a 9.0 and 9.2, or between most half-grade steps. A difference in opinion between two graders, and perhaps even the same grader on different days, of this degree is not cause for serious concern though any lack of consistency is disappointing.

 

However, if a book is resubbed and receives a new grade of more (or less) than 1 point and above, then that is cause for concern. I would hope that when CGC becomes aware of such instances someone there who oversees graders would check to see who graded those specific books and their respective notes and see if one or more graders need to receive a refresher course in grading.

 

I wasn't suggesting that there would be any come-back on the seller, rather that the subject of any action would be CGC itself.

 

As the self-proclaimed industry experts, whether they like it or not (and they do), their appraisal of a book is pretty much taken as read by 95% of the folk who trade in these commodities. Whilst they claim that they simply offer an opinion, it is an opinion that is taken as gospel by the market, and CGC encourage the market to do so...this is the basis of their value.

 

So what they need is unquestionable internal consistancy...which they don't have, and that is where I think the problem potentially lies. We have seen many, many examples of books coming back from re-sub 2 points higher on the scale, without work having been undertaken.

 

Now, take the example of a realtor (we call them estate agents here) who appraises a property vastly under market value, sells it for the client at that price and then four months later, in a market that has not in any way changed and with a property that has not in any way changed, puts the property back on the market for the new owner at 5 times the value of the original sale.

 

Here, this would lead to a court case, which would be won by the original vendor, based on the fact that they were misled and that incompetence by the 'expert' resulted in them losing a lot of money.

 

Why could this scenario not be transposed onto something like this?

Link to comment
Share on other sites
toro

toro

Posted
Posted

I am not an expert on pressing, I leave that to the rest of you, but what Rhino says could possible be true. The person, who bought it may have gambled and gotten a higher grade. Everyone here seems to think the 8.0 is the better looking version. Suppose the person did indeed re-submit and honestly received the 9.0 but, what you may now be looking at is some damage done during the slabbing process.

 

I just sold a JIM 117 that the other company(CGG) gave a 7.5, which was harsh, I then submitted it to CGC and it came back with an 8.5, but it also came back with damage to the top left corner which some of you may have seen in a previous post of mine.

 

I've also heard of people buying up golden age off of Heritage and re-submitting them and almost all had gotten higher grades.

 

If there is a conspiracy theory to really think about, suppose some day, someone steals some slabs out of production ,makes counterfit labels, then heat seals a ASM #1 that was originally a 7.5 and puts in a counterfit 9.0 label. How many of us call up and ask for the notes when we purchase a book off someone else, I know I've only done it twice since I started to purchase CGC'd books. Are there phoney CGC slabs out there now, I doubt it,,but who know what will happen in the future! Might sound screwy.gif but it could happen. Well it could! smile.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites
BassGMan

BassGMan

Posted
Posted

I think that the idea of holding CGC legally responsible for damages caused by an innocent but innacurate act of vast undergrading on a high dollar book is absolutely ridiculous. If a collector sends in a book to be graded by CGC and then receives a grade that he thinks is unjust, then by all means crack the slab and either sell it raw, or try your luck again. To sell the book as is, you are accepting CGC's grade, otherwise, why sell the book at a grade you believe is too low? If your buyer resubs and gets a higher grade, as others have said before, this shows human inconsistancies. Hey, it could be the other way around too, resubs have also come back with lower grades. The real estate example shown above is a very poor analogy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Foolkiller

Foolkiller

Posted
Posted

Now, if you are still referring to whether a never pressed 9.2 has a significant value difference than a pressed 9.2, then I would say the jury is still out on that question

 

This is actually what I've been saying all along Mark -- I think there is no evidence in the market to show that a pressed 9.2 would bring less money in than a never than pressed book.

 

How could a jury deliberate on the question of whether or not a class or an individual person was ever damaged or defrauded by somebody failing to disclose pressing? where's the monetary harm? In fact, the evidence suggests just the opposite. Pressed books have sold for the same amount they would ordinarily sell for.

 

Now, I'm sure you would say, well, that's because nobody's disclosed pressing, so how can we have a viable market study, we have no idea what would happen if it were disclosed.

 

And while I agree that's somewhat true, since pressing is very difficult to detect when done properly, I still can't find any damages for a jury ever to deliberate on. So for me, I don't think the jury's still out, I think this question has been answered, because the market place, knowingly or unknowingly, has simply accepted the practice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mr. Zipper

Mr. Zipper

Posted
Posted

Yet another example pointed out by Davenport on STL Board...

 

Superman 76 CGC 7.5 on ComicLink for $1650

 

It WAS a CGC 7.0 on eBay and went for $957 on eBay (Same book: note the penciled "M" above the title)

 

Certainly there are books that may be undergraded and good resub candidates. I wouldn't blame anyone for resubbing a book that may have gotten the short end of the stick the first time around. But this type of careful analysis would usually require in-hand examination of the book.

 

What's astounding is Comgeek's ability to pick such books from 72 dpi scans on eBay. 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

 

These examples clearly show that if you plan on buying any slabbed book over a few hundred bucks, it may be wise to search all available archives. There's a possibility you'll see your book in a lower grade somewhere else. surrender.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Sal

Sal

Posted
Posted
I wasn't suggesting that there would be any come-back on the seller, rather that the subject of any action would be CGC itself.

 

As the self-proclaimed industry experts, whether they like it or not (and they do), their appraisal of a book is pretty much taken as read by 95% of the folk who trade in these commodities. Whilst they claim that they simply offer an opinion, it is an opinion that is taken as gospel by the market, and CGC encourage the market to do so...this is the basis of their value.

 

So what they need is unquestionable internal consistancy...which they don't have, and that is where I think the problem potentially lies. We have seen many, many examples of books coming back from re-sub 2 points higher on the scale, without work having been undertaken.

 

Now, take the example of a realtor (we call them estate agents here) who appraises a property vastly under market value, sells it for the client at that price and then four months later, in a market that has not in any way changed and with a property that has not in any way changed, puts the property back on the market for the new owner at 5 times the value of the original sale.

 

Here, this would lead to a court case, which would be won by the original vendor, based on the fact that they were misled and that incompetence by the 'expert' resulted in them losing a lot of money.

 

Why could this scenario not be transposed onto something like this?

 

well, i'm not a law-talkin' dude, but i believe the primary problem is one of intent. convincing a jury that the realtor was unaware of the prior appraisal is nigh impossible, while making a similar claim for a comic - one of literally thousands that pass through CGC's doors monthly - is rather simple. the property hasn't moved, the sale prices are a matter of public record, as are the tax records. none of these apply to funnybooks. perhaps it's not the best example.

 

without some sort of chemical marker, or otherwise invisible sign that a book has passed through their doors already, it's impossible - by the very nature of the products they grade - for CGC to determine the provenance of every book they grade

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Flaming_Telepath

Flaming_Telepath

Posted
Posted

I think the intent is irrelevant. The problem is there is no internal consistancy, although by the very nature of the term 'CGC Graded', there should be, and the implication is there.

 

Books are not noted, nor advertised, as 'Mark Haspel Graded', or 'Steve Borock Graded', so human frailties are not an issue.

 

Or they shouldn't be as it's a company's grading standards that are being sold.

 

There is valid reason for CGC to claim that they offer only an opinion, but that opinion must remain consistant and on message, or I feel that there is a loophole that may be exploited.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Go to topic listing