BB28 from an 8.0 to a 9.0??????????

[Aman619]

speaking of pressing, and signed declarations, how about this idea for collectors. We all collaborate on a one page buying contract. When we buy from a dealer or whomever, we present it at the purchase, and both buyer and seller sign agreeing to all stipulations within. It could contain a clause stating that seller agrees to take the book back for a full refund if it is found (or suspected) of having been pressed. And it can include other provisions if we like.

 

We just cant make it so onerous on the dealer that they just refuse to do business with us. And lots of us would have to use it 100% of the time. If only a handful do, dealers will just tell us where we can file it!!

 

As Ive posted, Im not one big on statements, declarations, guarantees of the sort Esquire was suggesting. Im too cynical. But it occurred to me that there is a bit too much one-sided TRUST in the comics biz. We trust the dealers NOT to be selling us pressed or restored or overpriced books. But a comics purchase is a businesss deal, and a contract of sale shouldnt be out of line, should it?

[esquirecomics]

speaking of pressing, and signed declarations, how about this idea for collectors. We all collaborate on a one page buying contract. When we buy from a dealer or whomever, we present it at the purchase, and both buyer and seller sign agreeing to all stipulations within. It could contain a clause stating that seller agrees to take the book back for a full refund if it is found (or suspected) of having been pressed. And it can include other provisions if we like.

 

We just cant make it so onerous on the dealer that they just refuse to do business with us. And lots of us would have to use it 100% of the time. If only a handful do, dealers will just tell us where we can file it!!

 

As Ive posted, Im not one big on statements, declarations, guarantees of the sort Esquire was suggesting. Im too cynical. But it occurred to me that there is a bit too much one-sided TRUST in the comics biz. We trust the dealers NOT to be selling us pressed or restored or overpriced books. But a comics purchase is a businesss deal, and a contract of sale shouldnt be out of line, should it?

 

Yes, you have a great idea here!!! [Loosely translated -- I've already suggested this before!]

 

I am going to draft a version up for posting and comments.

 

Just let me get past Friday's website unveiling and the birth of my second child (due any day!!!!!).

[tth2]

I am going to draft a version up for posting and comments.

My job and my hobby truly are merging, but not in the way I would have wanted!

 

Just let me get past ... the birth of my second child (due any day!!!!!).

Good luck to you and your wife, Mark!

[lou_fine]

After which I had a real problem and have for a while now over the assertion that CGC has somehow and now I'm throwing out the propaganda "Made the back issue market safe for all." "Taken the guess work out of buying back issues" "Allowed the uninformed collector a sense of security and certainty in the product they are purchasing" I am now starting to think in opposite terms.

 

CGC has certainly created the IMPRESSION that all of the above is happening. This is turn has driven the prices up on a lot of merchandise. But I think the slope is now even more slippery, especially when you get to the higher ends of the spectrum. The are many more multiples of guide being paid BUT, there are also factors at play here that not everyone is aware of.

 

So CGC has taken SOME of the guesswork out - psuedo certainty has driven the prices up. There are still large buyer beware factors at play. The net equation results in just as much, if not more risk at the high end.

 

Very very well said!

 

As I have stated many times in the past, although CGC may have minimized the risk in certain aspects of the market, they have certainly contributed to additional risk through their informal endorsing and approval of undisclosed pressing and cleaning. I remember certain dealers back in the late 80's/ early 90's selling books with undisclosed restoration and justifying it based upon the rationale that they did not considered it to be restoration at the time. I always told the dealer that I considered any artifical activity performed to be restoration and either refused to purchase the book or adjusted my buy price down accordingly.

 

Well, guess what! Virtually all of those activities are now considered to be restoration and would now earn you a purple label. I wonder what would happen 10 years from now if artificial pressing can be detected cost effectively and the mood in the marketplace changes. Would we look back at 2005 and say how silly we were to buy pressed and cleaned books similar to how we now say that it was silly for collectors to be buying undisclosed restored books back in the 80's.

 

All I can say is that it is a lot more dangerous to buy high-end books in the CGC marketplace today than back in the pre-CGC days of the 80's because undisclosed restoration has always been frowned upon. The difference is that the undisclosed restoration being performed back in the 80's was much easier to detect than the undisclosed restoration being performed today. To top it off, it is virtually impossible to detect anything when it is hiding inside a blue label slab. The incentive to having the work done without disclosing it is also much more tempting now since CGC endorses it, and the current multiples that tiny increments in grade bring also makes it a no-brainer in deciding whether to get the work done or not.

 

Bottom-line: Be very careful what you buy in today's market because it most probably will not be what you think it is.

[Mr. Zipper]

As I have stated many times in the past, although CGC may have minimized the risk in certain aspects of the market, they have certainly contributed to additional risk through their informal endorsing and approval of undisclosed pressing and cleaning...

 

Bottom-line: Be very careful what you buy in today's market because it most probably will not be what you think it is.

 

 

Yup. CGC has driven out the nickel and dime undisclosed restoration crooks. But, the nickel and dimers have been replaced with robber barons who manipulate the system in ways that extract tens of thousand$ from collectors' pockets.

 

That's progress for you...

 

[Snooty Possum-migration]

[garthgantu]

 

CGC is a business and it can be influenced, presumably, by its customer base like any other business.

 

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

I'd take this point a step further... CGC is a system, and systems can be gamed. What we're seeing with these "clean, press and resubmit" examples are instances of gaming the system.

 

Cleaning is RESTORATION, except dry cleaning. And since CGC barely downgrades for dirt anyway, dry cleaning a book has almost no effect on grade.

 

 

I love this kind of obfuscation. Pressing is RESTORATION too, in the eyes of many people.

 

What's your point, that the jumps from 4.0 to 8.5 and 7.0 to 9.2 etc. seen with dozens of Church books are entirely due to pressing, and not cleaning? Those are some pretty big and numerous non-color breaking creases in old Edgar's books, if the only thing being done to them is pressing.

[tth2]

All I can say is that it is a lot more dangerous to buy high-end books in the CGC marketplace today than back in the pre-CGC days of the 80's because undisclosed restoration has always been frowned upon. The difference is that the undisclosed restoration being performed back in the 80's was much easier to detect than the undisclosed restoration being performed today. To top it off, it is virtually impossible to detect anything when it is hiding inside a blue label slab. The incentive to having the work done without disclosing it is also much more tempting now since CGC endorses it, and the current multiples that tiny increments in grade bring also makes it a no-brainer in deciding whether to get the work done or not.

Lou, I cannot disagree with this statement more. The pre-CGC 80s and 90s were the wild west taken to the nth degree, and caveat emptor was the ONLY rule. Yes you still have to have your wits about you even with CGC, but there is no comparison of the security I feel now compared to the total insecurity I felt back then.

 

If undisclosed restoration being performed back then was so easy to detect, then why have so many people been shocked to receive PLODs now? Also, who's to say people weren't cleaning and pressing back then, just as they are doing now, in as undetectable a manner as they are doing now? The main way people have been able to definitively ascertain that undisclosed cleaning and pressing has taken place is by comparing scans of the earlier graded version with the later graded version, and to a large extent we can thank archival systems at Heritage and other websites for the ability to do that. How would you have done a comparison like that back in the 80s to verify that there was cleaning and pressing?

 

I've been a collector since the 70s, and a relatively sophisticated collector since the mid-80s. There is NO comparison between today and the days when Danny Dupcek, Gerry Ross and other thieves were altering everything they could get their hands on and making a killing. If you think the current higher prices of the post-CGC era have created more incentive to tamper with books, all I can do is point you to all these "mechanics" who seemed to have plenty of incentive to work their magic for the "chump change" prices of yore.

 

And this all just relates to the restoration issue. Grading has tightened up a lot since then, and people who know better but don't want to admit that seem to be experiencing a form of post-revisionist amnesia. Particularly for collectors such as myself who relied heavily on mail order and therefore couldn't inspect the wares in person at cons and dealer's shops, the world is a much more secure place today.

[lou_fine]

All I can say is that it is a lot more dangerous to buy high-end books in the CGC marketplace today than back in the pre-CGC days of the 80's because undisclosed restoration has always been frowned upon. The difference is that the undisclosed restoration being performed back in the 80's was much easier to detect than the undisclosed restoration being performed today. To top it off, it is virtually impossible to detect anything when it is hiding inside a blue label slab. The incentive to having the work done without disclosing it is also much more tempting now since CGC endorses it, and the current multiples that tiny increments in grade bring also makes it a no-brainer in deciding whether to get the work done or not.

Lou, I cannot disagree with this statement more. The pre-CGC 80s and 90s were the wild west taken to the nth degree, and caveat emptor was the ONLY rule. Yes you still have to have your wits about you even with CGC, but there is no comparison of the security I feel now compared to the total insecurity I felt back then.

 

If undisclosed restoration being performed back then was so easy to detect, then why have so many people been shocked to receive PLODs now? Also, who's to say people weren't cleaning and pressing back then, just as they are doing now, in as undetectable a manner as they are doing now? The main way people have been able to definitively ascertain that undisclosed cleaning and pressing has taken place is by comparing scans of the earlier graded version with the later graded version, and to a large extent we can thank archival systems at Heritage and other websites for the ability to do that. How would you have done a comparison like that back in the 80s to verify that there was cleaning and pressing?

 

I've been a collector since the 70s, and a relatively sophisticated collector since the mid-80s. There is NO comparison between today and the days when Danny Dupcek, Gerry Ross and other thieves were altering everything they could get their hands on and making a killing. If you think the current higher prices of the post-CGC era have created more incentive to tamper with books, all I can do is point you to all these "mechanics" who seemed to have plenty of incentive to work their magic for the "chump change" prices of yore.

 

And this all just relates to the restoration issue. Grading has tightened up a lot since then, and people who know better but don't want to admit that seem to be experiencing a form of post-revisionist amnesia. Particularly for collectors such as myself who relied heavily on mail order and therefore couldn't inspect the wares in person at cons and dealer's shops, the world is a much more secure place today.

 

tth2;

 

As you correctly stated, a lot of collectors are shocked that they are receiving PLODS nowadays for supposedly unrestored books that they had purchased back in the wild west days of the 80's. I believe, however, that this is in part the fault of the collectors themselves for taking things for granted and not doing their due diligence by asking the right questions. I also assume a lot of purchasers never asked the dealers for fear that it would antagonize them and discourage dealers from giving them first crack on books.

 

As for myself, I never bothered to get written statements from dealers attesting that no restoration had been performed based upon their knowledge since I was not a lawyer. I am leaving this part up to Mark Z. to pursue. I did, however, pestered them incessantly to give me oral assurances that no work of any kind had been performed on the books. With dealers or books that I was not sure of, I would sometimes send them into Susan C. for a quick restoration check.

 

Even with these precautions, I am sure that I still have some restored books sitting in my collection. Some of these I bought with the full knowledge of disclosed minor restoration simply because the book was so stunning and I was able to factor the restoration impact into the final price. Up to this point in time, I've only had about 12 - 15 books graded by CGC. This was done back around 2000 when I consigned some books to Manning as a test of the CGC process and to prove to my wife that you could actually make some money from books. All of the books came back with a blue label graded from 9.2 to 9.6 (may have been one 9.0 in there). Only one came back with a purple label and that was for a Captain America which I knew had a tear seal and cleaning job since it was disclosed to me by the dealer at the time of purchase. Took it back from Manning and flipped it back to the original dealer at a substantial profit. The only other anomaly was a note on the blue label specifying a tiny amount of glue on spine which I was not aware of.

 

I am 100% in agreement with you that cleaning and pressing was done back in the day and completely undetectable similar to today. The significant difference is that cleaning and pressing was usually seen as a final touch to the restoration process since it was virtually always done along with other more invasive and detectable restoration activities. Exclusive pressing by itself was not seen to be cost effective at the time since non-colour breaking creases were more widely accepted as they could only be seen if the book was held up at certain angles and as a result, dealers were not downgrading very much for them. In today's market, CGC has taken a different view from the dealers by administering a significant whacking to these books with non-colour breaking creases. As a result, it has now become very very cost effective to do exclusive pressing on books in order to receive significant bumps in grade. This has also been encouraged by the fact that pressing is still basically undetectable along with the endorsement by CGC that states pressing is not restoration from their point of view.

 

I am also in complete agreement with you that CGC has significantly tightened up the entire grading process. This is a definite improvement over trying to figure out every dealer's indidivual grading system. As for Danny Dupchek, I will say that I had my own run in with him over a Spidey #1 file copy. Needless to say, it was in much lower condition than what a file copy should be in. After several frustrating months, but totally enjoyable and charming stories, I was finally able to turn the tables on Danny boy and had him banished from the pages of CBG. Not surprisingly, he quickly returned my money and spent the next few months pleading with me to send his book back to him, but that's another story which I had already related on these boards about 600 postings ago. Turned out to be a totally satisfying experience in the end and one that I look back and chuckle everytime I think of poor old Danny boy.

 

Bottom-line: For some people it may be safer to buy books today if they didn't do their due diligence in the old days. For me, I view it to be more dangerous simply because exclusive pressing is so much more rampant nowadays and still totally undetectable. My question is: Will collectors be just as shocked in the future if these current blue label books with undisclosed pressing become the PLOD's of the future once technology improves enough to detect artifical pressing cost effectively?

[Aman619]

yes.

[sterlingcomics]

great comments, but they probably need to be in another thread. Unless there has been some update in regards to this book, I think we're done here.

[esquirecomics]

great comments, but they probably need to be in another thread. Unless there has been some update in regards to this book, I think we're done here.

 

I would agree. It is a shame. Another legitimate, though controversial topic, that went unaddressed by the specific dealers in question notwithstanding the fact they knew the thread existed. Some no doubt say, "well, what did you expect, that Josh and Steve would respond?"

 

Actually, yes I did. Call it naive. Call it wishful thinking. Call it whatever you want. But I certainly would never have allowed such allegations to continue against me without some sort of response.

 

I can think of any number of responses that would have been more than appropriate for either of them that would have done nothing to harm their reputations. Indeed, responding probably would have been viewed as just the opposite. As so many threads on these boards have emphasized, and as we know in life, reputation is extremely important.

 

Instead, they have allowed this thread to fester and unfavorable accusations - most premature as I noted - to run rampant. And now with the end of the thread likely here, their silence is reasonably interpreted to reflect at least one obvious answer.

 

Everyone will digest this as they see appropriate, but no doubt there are those among us who will take this into consideration the next time we consider a purchase, and that includes me.

[BassGMan]

My question is: Will collectors be just as shocked in the future if these current blue label books with undisclosed pressing become the PLOD's of the future once technology improves enough to detect artifical pressing cost effectively?

 

Three things need to happen for this to occur:

1. The technology that can without a doubt detect professional pressing

2. Cracking and reslabbing the books in question

3. The decision that pressing IS restoration by grading companies

 

I really wouldn't worry about it. My opinion is that the pressed books that are not disclosed will always remain undisclosed and not provable as being pressed unless there are before and after scans/proof.

[DiceX]

Innocent until *proven* guilty?

[Aman619]

yes, but the next best thing has happenned: this poor 8.0 BB28 is now unsellable to all those who know its history. Only someone fresh off the boat, or someone totally unfazed by its histort will buy this book now. Given the reality of th estalemate we are in regarding pressing, this is th ebest we can hope for IMO. We should maintaina registry of known offending books. If that were to become circulated, and future detecting successes unearthed repeatedly, pressers will have to search a lot harder to find candidates for releasing their "hidden potential!"

[esquirecomics]

yes, but the next best thing has happenned: this poor 8.0 BB28 is now unsellable to all those who know its history. Only someone fresh off the boat, or someone totally unfazed by its histort will buy this book now. Given the reality of th estalemate we are in regarding pressing, this is th ebest we can hope for IMO. We should maintaina registry of known offending books. If that were to become circulated, and future detecting successes unearthed repeatedly, pressers will have to search a lot harder to find candidates for releasing their "hidden potential!"

 

I agree (though certainly some people do not mind pressing and may purchase it). Our objective, of course, is not to turn certain books into unsellable products. Far from it. We should want all the books to be sold so that more and more people can enjoy them. Our goal is simple: to ensure a buyer/collector has all the facts before them when they contemplate a purchase so that an informed decision can be reached.

 

We should start a separate thread of "Suspected/Known" pressed books and include photos (before and after if available) and CGC id #s. Any posting should include as much detail and description as possible as to why someone suspects the book has been pressed. Obviously, we want to avoid unduly "tagging" books that, in fact, have not been pressed. The current "owner" (or whomever is trying to sell the specific book) should always be afforded an opportunity to respond to the stated concern.

[sterlingcomics]

With the advent of technology and the Internet, tracking books is definitely easier than ever. Having people on the forum with a cautious eye definitely helps! I feel like I'm excluded from this conversation in general due to my collecting interests, but it's definitely opened my eyes on practices in this hobby.

 

Unfortunately, I feel like neither party have the desire nor inclination to comment. As Red Hook indicated, the hobby promotes this from sellers out to make a quick buck. The best we can do at this point is to be aware of the practice and be an educated consumer. I believe this thread has accomplished that, despite the fact that the individuals in question have not responded.

[Darthdiesel]

Obviously, we want to avoid unduly "tagging" books that, in fact, have not been pressed.

 

This simply will not do. This would undermine our current witchhunt to call out all our main competitor dealers and paint their respective inventories with elitist serving stigmas such as pressing and restoration.

[Ze-man]

 

We should start a separate thread of "Suspected/Known" pressed books and include photos (before and after if available) and CGC id #s. Any posting should include as much detail and description as possible as to why someone suspects the book has been pressed.

 

 

I think the best , easiest way to start something like this is with known Pedigree books. Similar to Brads GR website. All the known books are listed that he has scans of.. so if a book is resold at some point.. it will be easy to compare the 2 books and see what is what.

(It is a place to start anyhow)

 

Pedigrees are fairly well known books, that seem to change hands quite a bit.

It is usually easy to trace the history of a book..

And are normally good candidates for many owners who want to try the crack, presss, resub game .. in hopes of eeking out a half grade higher before relisting it..

They seem have a high profit potential built into them to help defray the expense of pressing the book.

 

So when a book suddenly is relisted at a higher grade then what the book was 6 months ago.... alarms go off.

 

Now.. who here is going to compile a nice master list(with scans) of all the possible pressed books we know of so far?

 

 

Mark?...

 

 

 

Ze-

[Darthdiesel]

Now.. who here is going to compile a nice master list(with scans) of all the possible pressed books we know of so far?

 

 

Mark?...

 

Yes, who will don the Grand Inquisitor robes and assume the legacy of the great Torquemada? A more worthwhile venture there never was ...