BB28 from an 8.0 to a 9.0??????????

[esquirecomics]

Does this mean we can still be buddies?

 

Of course.

 

Especially if you buy my books.

[esquirecomics]

Mark, Darth is only following the unspoken rule that some on these boards follow, of trying to discredit certain people and positions through innuendo, obfuscation and misdirection. Take a look at the most damning threads posted in the past year or two, and there's a clear pattern of "CGC true believers" taking every opportunity to deflate, dilute or in other ways undermine interesting threads, when those threads appear to threaten CGC's standing in the community.

 

I usually pipe up when the thread is going in the direction of conspiracy theory and try to nip the crazy talk in the bud.

 

If I've learned one thing by working in and around the Intelligence Community for more than a decade, just because you think you're paranoid doesn't mean someone is not trying to kill you!

[esquirecomics]

Obviously, we want to avoid unduly "tagging" books that, in fact, have not been pressed.

 

This simply will not do. This would undermine our current witchhunt to call out all our main competitor dealers and paint their respective inventories with elitist serving stigmas such as pressing and restoration.

 

Why Darth, whatever do you mean by this? Are you insinuating something that casts aspersions? The fact that you are intimating, whether in a joking manner or not, that I am undertaking this effort for the sake of causing harm to competitors is completely irresponsible since you know nothing about me or my intentions. I don't believe our 5 minute conversation at the Tysons Show or anything you have read on these boards that I have posted gives you much credibility in this category.

 

Why Marc, did my sarcasm and poor attempt at being funny strike a nerve or hit too close to home? I care little to nothing regarding your ambitions in this hobby in establishing yourself as the next big dealer on the block - you do not sell anything I would ever want to buy for my personal collection What I do have problems with is some of your misplaced attacks on CGC for how their stance on pressing. You are placing blame or expecting results from a company who can do nothing to affect how this issue is received in the market today. Your posts just incite the insufficiently_thoughtful_person villagers to storm the Frankenstien's castle and try to kill the innocent 'monster'

 

I agree it was a poor attempt, but I assure you that neither a nerve was hit or are you striking too close to home. You seem to have a habit of turning every criticism you levy on others as somehow being connected to CGC and how great it is. The vast majority of my comments on pressing have had little or nothing to do with CGC. I think perhaps my early postings commented on CGC policies, but I have focused on sellers/dealers and the issue of disclosure. Please identify one post where I have "blamed" CGC for the problems of pressing today or from yesteryear. Do I think CGC can have an impact on or influence the community by the position it takes on pressing or any other topic? You obviously agree with me that it can. And why should I, or others, not try to influence how a company does business when that business is something we care about?

 

I'll let the "insufficiently_thoughtful_person villagers", whomever you believe they are, respond directly to you.

 

 

Unlike many of the other dealers on the boards, I will not shy away from confrontation so do think carefully of what you want to say when it concerns me, and if you didn't intend to direct your statement towards me, then you should be more careful in the future in chosing your wording.

 

Is that a veiled threat, counselor? I'm sure we'll be able to clear it up at the next Tyson's if you'd care to. As for my wording, I think it's just fine to convey my intent to these boards. But since it is not clear to you, the statement I make applies to anyone who thinks CGC is wholly responsible for what is going on with pressing in the comics community and should CGC somehow acknowledge pressing is restoration by creating a new label or annotating it on the current label would serve the best interests of the back issue comic market, collector and dealer alike. All these calls for undisclosed pressing lists are irresponsible and WILL inevitably become witchhunts, unfairly targetting specific dealers. While many in your camp choose to ignore detection as a major aspect of this issue, accurate detection is the only way you can justify your proposed lists and subsequent leveled accusations against sellers who don't disclose pressing. short of video proof of a seller pressing his book or the word of an established professional restorer with before and after pictures of their handiwork, all you have is a guess as to whether something was pressed or not. Keep on this line of thinking and you start getting the whole community unnecessarily suspicious about any high grade book that is older than 1975 or sellers of such books. IMO you need 100% proof that a book has been tampered with before you go calling for it to be added onto such a list; otherwise you are just damaging the reputation of a dealer and casting unfounded aspersions on the rest of that dealer's inventory.

 

I never make veiled threats. I have no need to do so. And no doubt we can slug it out in the parking lot at the next show if you wish.

 

I don't know who my camp is. I don't even know who most of the people are posting on these boards b/c you all hide your identities! I have no idea what you are talking about with respect to holding CGC "wholly responsible" for pressing. Nor do you have any basis for claiming the problems surrounding detection are being ignored. They have been addressed in detail numerous times. And, my gawd I can't believe I need to say this again, the question of detection has NOTHING to do with a designation of restoration. It is relevant to the problem for sure, but they are distinct issues. Plus, I have cited to numerous examples where pressing can be reasonably detected. This thead, which I had nothing to do with, is a perfect example.

 

Please cite to one example where I have attacked any specific dealer and unfairly cast aspersions on their inventory, or harmed their reputation.

 

Additionally, I don't find undisclosed pressing to be an "elitist stigma". There is nothing elitist about it. Just greed.

 

it's as elitist as collecting slabs for the number on the label, but I guess you'd attribute that to greed as well. Caring about undisclosed pressing is ridiculous since one CAN NOT prove without a shadow of a doubt that any high grade back issues they bought have not been under a press at any time in their existence. WE are ALL taking it on faith and trust in the person/dealer who sold it to you. And all the litigious talk against these dealers just undermines that trust and in turn will affect the comic market adversely.

 

If you want to blindly make purchases on the good faith and honesty of those you purchase from, by all means go ahead and do so. That is your business and your money. But do us all a favor and speak for yourself, not ALL of us. There are many of us, including my sheep and village insufficiently_thoughtful_persons, who hold a different opinion. I presume that is allowed on these boards?

 

Baaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

[FlyingDonut]

Speaking as the Villiage insufficiently_thoughtful_person, the both of you need to lighten up. We'll all have cake and pie next Sunday at Tysons, and it'll all be good.

 

Mark - I'll call you tomorrow, my weekend is jammed to the gills, but maybe Monday or Tuesday.

[esquirecomics]

Speaking as the Villiage insufficiently_thoughtful_person, the both of you need to lighten up. We'll all have cake and pie next Sunday at Tysons, and it'll all be good.

 

Count me in. Are you buying?

[Darthdiesel]

focused on sellers/dealers and the issue of disclosure.

 

Yes. Disclosure. And how would you sure that was enforced again? How many flips down the road before disclosure disappears and the book is returned to the ranks of the "unpressed"? Are you personally going to track every book you sold every time it changes hands? Some sellers will do the right thing and disclose pressing, but the unscrupulous would do best by buying from these honest folk and flipping down the road. This possibility makes disclosure a pipe dream and there is NOTHING CGC or honest sellers can do about it today.

 

Please identify one post where I have "blamed" CGC for the problems of pressing today or from yesteryear.

 

So you don't think CGC's stance on non-disassembled pressing as not restoration encourages the rampant "press and flip" submissions that the CGC board detectives spot almost weekly by looking at Heritage sales archives? If you don't, then I guess I had you mistakenly placed in the anti-pressing camp all this time

 

Do I think CGC can have an impact on or influence the community by the position it takes on pressing or any other topic? You obviously agree with me that it can. And why should I, or others, not try to influence how a company does business when that business is something we care about?

 

Because they've already came out with their stance on it and stated how they treat/label/annotate "suspected" pressed books.

 

I'll let the "insufficiently_thoughtful_person villagers", whomever you believe they are, respond directly to you.

 

You're doing a good enough job, Marc

 

I never make veiled threats. I have no need to do so. And no doubt we can slug it out in the parking lot at the next show if you wish.

 

I wouldn't want to end up getting sued for all that my modern comics are worth Besides, you'll need to save all your energy to take care of your kid when he/she comes...

 

Nor do you have any basis for claiming the problems surrounding detection are being ignored. They have been addressed in detail numerous times. And, my gawd I can't believe I need to say this again, the question of detection has NOTHING to do with a designation of restoration. It is relevant to the problem for sure, but they are distinct issues.

 

Without a definitive means to detect (on all books) that pressing had occurred, and I'm not talking side by side scans of two separately auctioned books, the designation of restoration is a moot point. You can claim pressing is retoration till you are blue in the face, but until you can prove it, it's just your word against the seller's.

 

Plus, I have cited to numerous examples where pressing can be reasonably detected. This thead, which I had nothing to do with, is a perfect example.

 

So you are saying, if you were representing the buyer in a suit against the seller for non-disclosure of pressing, or seller fraud based on misreprestentation of condition, you'd feel confident bringing legal action against this seller of the BB 28 CGC 9.0 based on the "evidence" presented here in this thread? Digital evidence that can be manipulated?

 

Please cite to one example where I have attacked any specific dealer and unfairly cast aspersions on their inventory, or harmed their reputation.

 

That is the inevitable outcome for your seller's pressing disclosure contract and undisclosed pressing lists you are calling for. Think it through, man. I don't need to spell it all out for you Innocent men are convicted and executed all the time. All your ideas need to do is to condemn a non-pressed high grade book and falsely accuse an honest seller and you've set your witchhunt in motion. Can you assure me that your suspected pressed list will be 100% accurate? Can you enforce that pressing disclosure contract you have planned for all hi grade dealers to sign?

 

If you want to blindly make purchases on the good faith and honesty of those you purchase from, by all means go ahead and do so. That is your business and your money.

 

What is the alternative? Make the seller sign a contract for each high grade/high value book he sells me and if down the road, within the statute of limitations, CGC PLOD's that same book, I turn around, call you up to represent me and sue the seller? where do you get blindly? how do you do your purchases? Last time I saw you at Tyson's, you had no blacklight in hand while checking out books.

 

But do us all a favor and speak for yourself, not ALL of us. There are many of us, including my sheep and village insufficiently_thoughtful_persons, who hold a different opinion. I presume that is allowed on these boards?

 

Baaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

 

You and I will never see eye to eye on this. Without irrefutable means of pressing detection, the question of "is pressing restoration" is not worth answering because regardless of how you answer, the corollary is "How do you prove it?"

 

Next time, learn to take a joke so i'm not up answering your posts at 3 AM.

[Darthdiesel]

Speaking as the Villiage insufficiently_thoughtful_person, the both of you need to lighten up. We'll all have cake and pie next Sunday at Tysons, and it'll all be good.

 

As long as Marc ends up wearing the pie after Sunday's meeting...

[awe4one]

Some info that's probably irrelevant by now...

 

According to this month's CBG, the 8.0 slabbed copy sold on eBay for $5,200 was the #7 highest price paid for a comics related item on the site for the month of January...

 

Jim

[Aman619]

thats good old timely CBG for ya! publishing all the news - - - from months ago!

[Foolkiller]

apparently, this thread never will die.

[awe4one]

apparently, this thread never will die.

 

There's just so many aspects about this thread that's fascinating...

 

Jim

[Snooty Possum-migration]

So, is pressing considered restoration?

[garthgantu]

I can only answer for myself and say that I would love to see some positive posts about the hobby for a change.

Or at the very least some *new* topic of complaint.

The same old [#@$%!!!], that nobody can do anything about (except whine), for MONTHS on end, gets old.

I now return you to the same people from four months ago, having the same conversation from four months ago.

 

You know, Dice, you could really mix things up if you just didn't continue to play the same role yourself. Don't post to the thread if you feel it's entirely retreaded. If nothing else, this will accomplish two things: the thread will be different by virtue of your not having posted to it, AND you won't have to read it...

[garthgantu]

I thought th esuggestion that the graemlin traders were doing it on putpose to protect CGC... never occurred to me, nor do I think its true. The graemlin guys are just having fun.

 

Go back and take a look at the five or ten longest "con-CGC" threads of the past year. The perps will be the same in almost every case. There may be some light-heartedness to the individual posts, but the overall strategy is clear to me - try to lead people away from the subject at hand and into some morass.

 

Not saying they don't have the right to post whatever they want, but it's interesting to note just who shows up only to post deconstructive comments and/or graemlins in some volatile threads.

[FlyingDonut]

Speaking as the Villiage insufficiently_thoughtful_person, the both of you need to lighten up. We'll all have cake and pie next Sunday at Tysons, and it'll all be good.

 

Count me in. Are you buying?

 

Not me, Mr. I've-Just-Set-Up-A-Sales-Site-With-Very-Expensive-Books, I don't think so.

[garthgantu]

What I do have problems with is some of your misplaced attacks on CGC for how their stance on pressing. You are placing blame or expecting results from a company who can do nothing to affect how this issue is received in the market today. Your posts just incite the insufficiently_thoughtful_person villagers to storm the Frankenstien's castle and try to kill the innocent 'monster'

 

Nice. I like how those of us who stand on the other side of the pressing debate are now "insufficiently_thoughtful_person villagers" (that's "village insufficiently_thoughtful_person" to you, pal!).

 

As for CGC being unable to anything "to affect how this issue is received in the market today," I'd say they've done plenty already. They've stated their official policy ("pressing is not restoration") and they've indicated their level of effectiveness in identifying pressing ("we can't consistently identify pressing with any degree of certainty"). And their stance on the issue is at the very core of the argument. So they're definitely affecting 'how this issue is received in the market.'

 

If CGC came out tomorrow with a statement to the effect of "we are changing our policy on pressing. It IS restoration, but we still can't detect it," don't you think that would have some affect on how the issue is received in the market? Not saying they will, or even should (from a business standpoint) do this, but to say that they cannot do this is patently incorrect.

[Darthdiesel]

way to spin and devalue valid opposing viewpoints as mere distraction or diversion tactics

[Darthdiesel]

What I do have problems with is some of your misplaced attacks on CGC for how their stance on pressing. You are placing blame or expecting results from a company who can do nothing to affect how this issue is received in the market today. Your posts just incite the insufficiently_thoughtful_person villagers to storm the Frankenstien's castle and try to kill the innocent 'monster'

 

Nice. I like how those of us who stand on the other side of the pressing debate are now "insufficiently_thoughtful_person villagers" (that's "village insufficiently_thoughtful_person" to you, pal!).

 

As for CGC being unable to anything "to affect how this issue is received in the market today," I'd say they've done plenty already. They've stated their official policy ("pressing is not restoration") and they've indicated their level of effectiveness in identifying pressing ("we can't consistently identify pressing with any degree of certainty"). And their stance on the issue is at the very core of the argument. So they're definitely affecting 'how this issue is received in the market.'

 

If CGC came out tomorrow with a statement to the effect of "we are changing our policy on pressing. It IS restoration, but we still can't detect it," don't you think that would have some affect on how the issue is received in the market? Not saying they will, or even should (from a business standpoint) do this, but to say that they cannot do this is patently incorrect.

 

 

Just because you confidently claim it is incorrect doesn't make it so, but I know how you want to look good for the sheep...

 

It seems that you hold CGC liable for not being able to detect it consistently with any degree of certainty. Can you or any of the top dealers in the business. Not even the great restorers, save one (who can't even detect her own work years later), claim to be able to detect professional pressing with any degree of consistency.

 

how would CGC's hypothetical outing of pressing as resto affect YOU personally and your buying habits? That's what you want to ask. Some folks never cared before and will care even less. Prices they pay for books will not change one iota. you are mistaken if you think that such an announcement will rock the very foundations of the back issue market.

 

Let's say CGC goes ahead and 'out' pressing - what will come of it? Will HG collections all over suddenly lose value, much like when CGC first came out and established a grading standard back in 2000? Why would they lose value? Can anyone prove that pressing has taken place? Or are you just going to stigmatize all "pancaked" appearing books as de facto pressed books? better yet, why not just state that all HG books above 9.4 and pre 1975 are potential pressing suspects?

 

Why the persistence in establishing that CGC claim pressing is resto? there is nothing practical that would come of it. Nothing you can hang your hat on.

[garthgantu]

I usually pipe up when the thread is going in the direction of conspiracy theory and try to nip the crazy talk in the bud.

 

Fair enough. But do you think CGC would even have acknowledged SCS if people on these boards hadn't started a few "conspiracy theory" threads on the subject?

 

Look, CGC isn't perfect. CGC's lack of perfection will cause different people to think about the company in different ways. Some of those ways may seem paranoid to you and others. Conversely, I see some of the blind faith in CGC as truly foolhardy. But I try not to personally slam people or make unpleasant insinuations about their mental health or etc. simply because I disagree with them. Sure, I've called a couple of people's behavior "sycophantic," but I'm pretty sure they had no idea what it meant, and if they did, I'm not sure they'd even take offense.

[garthgantu]

So you don't think CGC's stance on non-disassembled pressing as not restoration encourages the rampant "press and flip" submissions that the CGC board detectives spot almost weekly by looking at Heritage sales archives? If you don't, then I guess I had you mistakenly placed in the anti-pressing camp all this time

 

For what it's worth, if you go back and look at some recent comments from Steve B., you'll find that CGC no longer claims to view pressing involving disassembly as restoration either. They simply "downgrade" a book for this when they're able to spot it.