Hero Restoration Posted April 27, 2009 Share Posted April 27, 2009 Ok I will. I had a question. If you wash a page with some type of alkiline based cleaner does that also deacidificate the page as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ze-man Posted April 27, 2009 Share Posted April 27, 2009 Deacidificate? Are you GW? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiceX Posted April 27, 2009 Share Posted April 27, 2009 We should change the name of pressing to "Smashification". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divad Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 We should change the name of pressing to "Smashification". I use a veal-pounder for quick jobs . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FFB Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 Ok I will. I had a question. If you wash a page with some type of alkiline based cleaner does that also deacidificate the page as well? Since none of these jokers seems willing to answer your question, I'll do it. The answer is 42. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hero Restoration Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 42 is wrong direction. Pages are around 15 I think and if I remember right neutral is are 7. Maybe I am asking too technical of a question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhhooks22 Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 1) Black light - yep - but do it in as dark a room as you can and edge the book towards the black light source and very slowly rotate it. 2) Trimmed. If you press the book flat on a hard smooth surface and look along the edge, if the edges are all even the book HAS been trimmed. If you still think the book is trimmed after it passes this test then open the book up to the centerfol. Try very gently pressing it flat and see if there are signs of cutting (lighter edge colors, slight roughness, differences in overall color) 3) Get a good ground glass loupe. Examine the staple area. See if the depressions match the staples. See if slightly darker (aka metallic) stains match where the staples are now. Then ignore the impressions on the inside pages and look to where the stapels are embedded in the book. Be sure they align with the depressions on the TOP pages. 4) Take special care with the centerfold. Examine it carefully for replacement or reinforcement. Slight areas that have different reflectivity can indicate archival tape or japan paper. 5) Check for any color from the cover that has bled into the pages below or the back of the cover. Thi8s can indicate magic marker ::shudder:: desecration. 6) Examine the inside back and front covers for a green ink transfer stain. If it appears mottled it has proabbly been subject to removal but has proved too extensive for total removal. If you find this is the case, re-examine the staples VERY carefully as ink transfer removal generally means dismantling. 7) FEEL the surface of the book. Should it have a gloss cover? If so does it feel slightly slick or dioes it feel slightly rough? If rough again angle it to a light and see if it appears matted. That could be age or it could be a wet wash. 8) Then examine the inside cover. If it seems unnaturally white with a slightly rough "tooth" to it, It may have been "float rinsed". 9) Examine the corners and and the staple areas for a slight dulling or difference in reflectivity. This can again indicate archival tape or japan paper as in step 4 above. 10) Check for white paper areas that are whiter than the immedate areas. That could be leaf forming. 11) Try to get either the same book or a book an issue or two above and below. Check the height of the book. If the book you are looking at is unnaturally thcik, it could have been subject to methyl cellulose vacuum impregnation probably followed by a freeze-dry process (unprobable in all but the pricier books as the costy of this equipment is slightly prohibitive). That's all for now. Probably more later. GEEZ ! Thanks , that great info and all , but if I did all that to every book I've ever owned , I sure wouldn't have any time to goof off here ? I've never even paid that much attention to my wife ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ze-man Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 42 is wrong direction. Pages are around 15 I think and if I remember right neutral is are 7. Maybe I am asking too technical of a question Of all the people here , Scott(FFB) is probably the most learned person when it comes to the science of paper. He has probably forgot more about the science behind paper then I have read..which is alot. His 42 answer was a joke, and from the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. You asked about washing paper, but used the term "deacidificate" which was kinda funny hence why we were cracking wise. To answer your question in part, yeah, various forms of wet washing can de acidify paper simply because when you wash something, things are washed out of the paper.(you should see the water after you wash the interior of a GA book) You can also add various cleaning and buffering agents depending on what you are doing. Or you can also get deacidifying sprays that work without washing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hero Restoration Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 Yeah I saw those sprays and wondered if that was good enough or should they be soaked. I just figured I would save some money if the cleaning solution which is alkaline would neutralize the acid in the paper anyways. I suppose I could get some test strips and find out for me which is pretty much what I have had to do so far is trial and error. I do see a bunch of acid in the wash water after I'm done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ze-man Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 Would love to see some examples of your work, we love photos around here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FFB Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 Yeah I saw those sprays and wondered if that was good enough or should they be soaked. I just figured I would save some money if the cleaning solution which is alkaline would neutralize the acid in the paper anyways. I suppose I could get some test strips and find out for me which is pretty much what I have had to do so far is trial and error. I do see a bunch of acid in the wash water after I'm done. That isn't acid you're seeing. It's chromophores floating in the wash water. You can't see acid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FFB Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 What are you putting in your wash water to alkalinize it? If you're using calcium carbonate, the wash water will leave an alkaline reserve in the paper so you won't need the spray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hero Restoration Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 Excelent, thanks Scott. Ze-man I will start a before and after thread. Hopefully I wont be the only one posting pics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillS25 Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 I've done a search and couldn't get anything to come up so I'm hoping someone here will be able to give me a few pointers. How do you spot that staples have been cleaned? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FFB Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 I've done a search and couldn't get anything to come up so I'm hoping someone here will be able to give me a few pointers. How do you spot that staples have been cleaned? Thanks! I explained it earlier in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillS25 Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Thanks FFB. I'll go through this thread until I find it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ze-man Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 I've done a search and couldn't get anything to come up so I'm hoping someone here will be able to give me a few pointers. How do you spot that staples have been cleaned? Thanks! I explained it earlier in this thread. No, you explained what replaced staples might look like..with some mighty fancy red arrows I might add! ( or did I miss a post? ) In my experience detecting if staples were cleaned comes down to a few things, sorry if some of this is redundant. If the paper surrounding clean looking staples displays rust migration but the staples do not..then the staples were probably cleaned or replaced. And if they were cleaned they will show some kind of scraping, or pock marks where the rust ate away the metal but was cleaned off. Get a loupe and take a close look under light, the surface of the metal will tell a story under magnification. If the staples were not removed but cleaned..look for the exposed side to be cleaner the what's is sitting next to the paper. Looking at the texture of the staple at the centerfold and compare it to the exterior also helps Sometimes a staple can be buffed/polished after cleaning making it harder to detect....I would look for an area, even a tiny area on the staple that displays a different wear pattern. Well, thats a start Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FFB Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 I've done a search and couldn't get anything to come up so I'm hoping someone here will be able to give me a few pointers. How do you spot that staples have been cleaned? Thanks! I explained it earlier in this thread. No, you explained what replaced staples might look like..with some mighty fancy red arrows I might add! ( or did I miss a post? ) In my experience detecting if staples were cleaned comes down to a few things, sorry if some of this is redundant. If the paper surrounding clean looking staples displays rust migration but the staples do not..then the staples were probably cleaned or replaced. And if they were cleaned they will show some kind of scraping, or pock marks where the rust ate away the metal but was cleaned off. Get a loupe and take a close look under light, the surface of the metal will tell a story under magnification. If the staples were not removed but cleaned..look for the exposed side to be cleaner the what's is sitting next to the paper. Looking at the texture of the staple at the centerfold and compare it to the exterior also helps Sometimes a staple can be buffed/polished after cleaning making it harder to detect....I would look for an area, even a tiny area on the staple that displays a different wear pattern. Well, thats a start No, I was not referring to the picture of the staples. DiceX copied a post of mine into this thread from last year where I said about 90% of this, so THANKS FOR WASTING EVERYONE'S TIME. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ze-man Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 90%?, really. Bills25 asked about how to detect cleaned staples so I tried to tailor my response around that. And why are you yelling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheezyWhiz Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 No, I was not referring to the picture of the staples. DiceX copied a post of mine into this thread from last year where I said about 90% of this, so THANKS FOR WASTING EVERYONE'S TIME. It didn't waste my time. I found it informative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
