Unpopular Golden Age Opinions Thread! 9 9

[Tri-Color Brian]

On 10/29/2022 at 2:43 AM, Point Five said:

But is there a title in the GA whose stories you can't say that about? Honest question.

 

Hmmm...maybe Strange Adventures and Mystery in Space.  Those lame stories always fool you...

[adamstrange]

On 10/29/2022 at 5:43 AM, Point Five said:

But is there a title in the GA whose stories you can't say that about? Honest question.

 

Donald Duck/Uncle Scrooge

[L'Angelo Misterioso]

I cannot overlook the fact that Jack Kamen drew all his female characters with the same face, and that diminishes his artistic talent in my view.

PCH is the chief genre for overhyped and profoundly overpriced covers, many of which are not even scarce enough to justify their FMV.

I think war comics are gonna increase in popularity among collectors.

The art in comics that collectors are primarily interested in (superheroes, science fiction, not newspaper strip stuff, etc) didn't become good until the late 40s. Early to mid Golden Age is just so unengaging to read because of lifeless, static interior art.

Captain America books are overvalued.

 

 

 

[jimbo_7071]

On 6/26/2023 at 5:23 PM, L'Angelo Misterioso said:

I cannot overlook the fact that Jack Kamen drew all his female characters with the same face, and that diminishes his artistic talent in my view.

PCH is the chief genre for overhyped and profoundly overpriced covers, many of which are not even scarce enough to justify their FMV.

I think war comics are gonna increase in popularity among collectors.

The art in comics that collectors are primarily interested in (superheroes, science fiction, not newspaper strip stuff, etc) didn't become good until the late 40s. Early to mid Golden Age is just so unengaging to read because of lifeless, static interior art.

Captain America books are overvalued.

I've never thought that Kamen was an especially good artist. I more or less agree about the female faces, but I think that he had two rather than one: the wide-eyed angry face and the wide-eyed surprised face. 

And I don't disagree about the writing. Newspaper serial strip writing crushed the material written for comic books in that era.

Many of the PCH covers are overhyped right now, but the high prices are bringing more copies out of the woodwork, so you should see some leveling off of prices. (I think that you already have seen it to some extent with the exception of highest-graded copies.)

Edited June 28, 2023 by jimbo_7071

[buttock]

On 6/26/2023 at 3:23 PM, L'Angelo Misterioso said:

I cannot overlook the fact that Jack Kamen drew all his female characters with the same face, and that diminishes his artistic talent in my view.

PCH is the chief genre for overhyped and profoundly overpriced covers, many of which are not even scarce enough to justify their FMV.

I think war comics are gonna increase in popularity among collectors.

The art in comics that collectors are primarily interested in (superheroes, science fiction, not newspaper strip stuff, etc) didn't become good until the late 40s. Early to mid Golden Age is just so unengaging to read because of lifeless, static interior art.

Captain America books are overvalued.

 

 

 

I agree with PCH in many cases.  This was maybe the most unbelievable sale in the last HA auction to me.  

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/horror/tales-of-horror-8-toby-publishing-1953-cgc-fn-55-white-pages/a/7340-92131.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515

[Bookery]

Well... the thread did ask for unpopular golden-age opinions... so here goes.  I wonder how much longer Hitler covers will be a thing.  I was updating my buy guide and to be sure... these covers are either stable or still increasing in value.  But you have a whole generation (or two) coming up who really have no idea who that is.  They hear the name a lot... but it's usually just bandied about by every political side who calls someone they disagree with Hitler.  Before Hitler came along, who was the previous dictator / conqueror that would have been universally known?  Would there be lots of collectors out there for Napoleon covers?  The generation that fought that war is all but gone.  Much of the generation whose fathers fought that war are also gone.  Will there come a point where younger collectors will no longer care to spend $10k or $20k or $50k for a cover featuring just another murky historical figure that for them comes from a vague and distant past?  I guess I'm not offering an opinion per se, as much as a rumination... 

[L'Angelo Misterioso]

On 6/28/2023 at 1:20 PM, Bookery said:

Well... the thread did ask for unpopular golden-age opinions... so here goes.  I wonder how much longer Hitler covers will be a thing.  I was updating my buy guide and to be sure... these covers are either stable or still increasing in value.  But you have a whole generation (or two) coming up who really have no idea who that is.  They hear the name a lot... but it's usually just bandied about by every political side who calls someone they disagree with Hitler.  Before Hitler came along, who was the previous dictator / conqueror that would have been universally known?  Would there be lots of collectors out there for Napoleon covers?  The generation that fought that war is all but gone.  Much of the generation whose fathers fought that war are also gone.  Will there come a point where younger collectors will no longer care to spend $10k or $20k or $50k for a cover featuring just another murky historical figure that for them comes from a vague and distant past?  I guess I'm not offering an opinion per se, as much as a rumination... 

People are not going to forget who Hitler was, not any time soon. There is some confusion and historical revisionism in popular discourse about Nazism, but my generation (Gen Z) are well aware of Hitler and his impact. Hitler is a far more influential person in modern history than Napoleon; the endurance of his ideas, among other things, speaks to that.

Consumers may stop spending five figures on comic books for a more general reason (comic books going the way of stamps and lobby cards, increasing cost of living, etc) sooner than they will stop because of perceived irrelevance of WW2 and Nazis. I honestly think WW2 covers like Catman and Marvel Mystery Comics will fare better in the future than GGA and way overhyped horror covers, anyway.

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

On 6/28/2023 at 12:20 PM, Bookery said:

I wonder how much longer Hitler covers will be a thing.  I was updating my buy guide and to be sure... these covers are either stable or still increasing in value.  But you have a whole generation (or two) coming up who really have no idea who that is.

 

[Cat-Man_America]

On 6/28/2023 at 12:20 PM, Bookery said:

Well... the thread did ask for unpopular golden-age opinions... so here goes.  I wonder how much longer Hitler covers will be a thing.  I was updating my buy guide and to be sure... these covers are either stable or still increasing in value.  But you have a whole generation (or two) coming up who really have no idea who that is.  They hear the name a lot... but it's usually just bandied about by every political side who calls someone they disagree with Hitler.  Before Hitler came along, who was the previous dictator / conqueror that would have been universally known?  Would there be lots of collectors out there for Napoleon covers?  The generation that fought that war is all but gone.  Much of the generation whose fathers fought that war are also gone.  Will there come a point where younger collectors will no longer care to spend $10k or $20k or $50k for a cover featuring just another murky historical figure that for them comes from a vague and distant past?  I guess I'm not offering an opinion per se, as much as a rumination... 

One of the most horrific criminal minds in history isn't going to be forgotten, that's why comparisons made with Hitler and anyone causes immediate defensive posturing to this day, but you have an interesting thought worthy of rumination.  Maybe at some point in the future we'll see collectible Ukrainian comics with green Putin covers!  

Spoiler

 

On 6/28/2023 at 1:24 PM, L'Angelo Misterioso said:

People are not going to forget who Hitler was, not any time soon. There is some confusion and historical revisionism in popular discourse about Nazism, but my generation (Gen Z) are well aware of Hitler and his impact. Hitler is a far more influential person in modern history than Napoleon; the endurance of his ideas, among other things, speaks to that.

Consumers may stop spending five figures on comic books for a more general reason (comic books going the way of stamps and lobby cards, increasing cost of living, etc) sooner than they will stop because of perceived irrelevance of WW2 and Nazis. I honestly think WW2 covers like Catman and Marvel Mystery Comics will fare better in the future than GGA and way overhyped horror covers, anyway.

Comic books have a more visceral impact on collectors than stamps, lobby cards, posters, etc., not that these aren't still readily pursued. But there's an ongoing media connection (movies; TV) that isn't likely to go away, so the characters and their original sources will probably live on in reruns for generations. They're a perfect collectible size for storage, ...not too small, ...not too large, ...like the porridge, just right! 

Gold! ...Have to agree, but let me be the first to admit being biased! 

Spoiler

 

[The-Collector]

On 6/29/2023 at 2:02 AM, buttock said:

I agree with PCH in many cases.  This was maybe the most unbelievable sale in the last HA auction to me.  

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/horror/tales-of-horror-8-toby-publishing-1953-cgc-fn-55-white-pages/a/7340-92131.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515

I love this cover but was surprised by the sale of this copy for that price given the bad color strike and what looks like a sub-crease. Also there is a imo much nicer looking 5.0 in the PCH showcase. 

[jimbo_7071]

On 6/28/2023 at 2:24 PM, L'Angelo Misterioso said:

People are not going to forget who Hitler was, not any time soon. There is some confusion and historical revisionism in popular discourse about Nazism, but my generation (Gen Z) are well aware of Hitler and his impact. Hitler is a far more influential person in modern history than Napoleon; the endurance of his ideas, among other things, speaks to that.

Younger people are aware of WWII just like I'm aware of WWI and the Civil War, but the personal connection won't be there. My grandfather served in WWII and I grew up around my grandfather; one of my substitute teachers in high school had served in the Pacific theater and told us his first-hand account of liberating prisoners who had been part of the Bataan death March, etc. 

I'm not convinced that just "knowing about" something translates into the kind of fervent interest that Boomers and Gen Xers have had. Heck, some guys here in the GA forum may be old enough to have had fathers who served in WWII, mothers who were in the USO during the war, etc.

Comic book collecting may give way to other hobbies eventually, but it will occur slowly. I'm 49; my feeling is that I could live long enough to see my GA collection lose quite a bit of equity if collecting comics becomes more of a niche hobby some years down the road. We have a few guys here who are over 70; I don't think those guys need to worry.

Edited July 8, 2023 by jimbo_7071

[Frisco Larson]

I know this isn't a popular opinion at all, but I think restoration and conservation on comic books is just fine, especially if they REALLY need it. Example: I had a Daring Mystery #2 a long time ago (mid 90s) that was complete, but the covers and pages were all completely split ... no two pages were connected anymore. I left it with Matt as a "long term project" to see if he could save its life. Chippity at the edges and difficult (but not impossible) to thumb thru, it was clearly circling the drain, on its last legs and needing extensive resuscitation. One must remember, at that time, Daring Mystery #2 was nearly IMPOSSIBLE to find and was once thought to be the rarest Timely. Now he only worked on it when he had some down time, so it took 2 years, but by gosh he hung that thing back together (HOW still remains a mystery unrevealed) and turned it back into a handleable, readable, ENJOYABLE comic book! Sure, it was EXTENSIVELY restored ... it had the FULL MONTY ... pages treated (I don't know the process), the entire spine of the comic was completely rebuilt, and it had a chemical smell to it, BUT he saved its life, which allowed me to enjoy it for quite a while until a life situation forced the sale of most of my prized Timely collection. I'm almost completely CERTAIN that had nothing been done with the comic, it'd be a pile of dust by now (some 25 + years later)!!! They don't make Golden Age anymore, so saving that Daring Mystery kept a copy in the hobby. I have NO idea where it is now, but I'd know it if I saw it again. I hope whoever has it is enjoying it!  

[Point Five]

On 6/29/2023 at 12:53 PM, Frisco Larson said:

I know this isn't a popular opinion at all, but I think restoration and conservation on comic books is just fine, especially if they REALLY need it. Example: I had a Daring Mystery #2 a long time ago (mid 90s) that was complete, but the covers and pages were all completely split ... no two pages were connected anymore. I left it with Matt as a "long term project" to see if he could save its life. Chippity at the edges and difficult (but not impossible) to thumb thru, it was clearly circling the drain, on its last legs and needing extensive resuscitation. One must remember, at that time, Daring Mystery #2 was nearly IMPOSSIBLE to find and was once thought to be the rarest Timely. Now he only worked on it when he had some down time, so it took 2 years, but by gosh he hung that thing back together (HOW still remains a mystery unrevealed) and turned it back into a handleable, readable, ENJOYABLE comic book! Sure, it was EXTENSIVELY restored ... it had the FULL MONTY ... pages treated (I don't know the process), the entire spine of the comic was completely rebuilt, and it had a chemical smell to it, BUT he saved its life, which allowed me to enjoy it for quite a while until a life situation forced the sale of most of my prized Timely collection. I'm almost completely CERTAIN that had nothing been done with the comic, it'd be a pile of dust by now (some 25 + years later)!!! They don't make Golden Age anymore, so saving that Daring Mystery kept a copy in the hobby. I have NO idea where it is now, but I'd know it if I saw it again. I hope whoever has it is enjoying it!  

That's awesome! Agreed, I think resto is perfectly fine in those cases.

For many years I've owned a nice-looking Hangman #3 with a brittle spine (not quite as far gone as your Daring Mystery, but getting there). If memory serves I sent it to Kenny Sanderson to explore possible conservation, and he didn't think it was possible to conserve it due to the degree of brittleness... but this was maybe 2007 or so, right when leafcasting GA books was in its infancy... I think he'd only done one or two leafcasting jobs at that point. My guess is it could indeed be done today, though it may well be as time-consuming (= expensive) as you describe.

 

[newshane]

On 6/28/2023 at 12:20 PM, Bookery said:

Well... the thread did ask for unpopular golden-age opinions... so here goes.  I wonder how much longer Hitler covers will be a thing.  I was updating my buy guide and to be sure... these covers are either stable or still increasing in value.  But you have a whole generation (or two) coming up who really have no idea who that is.  They hear the name a lot... but it's usually just bandied about by every political side who calls someone they disagree with Hitler.  Before Hitler came along, who was the previous dictator / conqueror that would have been universally known?  Would there be lots of collectors out there for Napoleon covers?  The generation that fought that war is all but gone.  Much of the generation whose fathers fought that war are also gone.  Will there come a point where younger collectors will no longer care to spend $10k or $20k or $50k for a cover featuring just another murky historical figure that for them comes from a vague and distant past?  I guess I'm not offering an opinion per se, as much as a rumination... 

You are underestimating Hitler's legacy as the most evil (or at least, one of the most evil) people to have ever lived. Those memories aren't going to fade anytime soon. 

Kids these days are still very much aware of Hitler, believe it or not. Teens, in particular, are very fascinated with evil. One of the most popular books in the high school library is an encyclopedia of serial killers. Most teens go through a period of morbid fascination. 

[L'Angelo Misterioso]

On 6/29/2023 at 12:53 PM, Frisco Larson said:

I know this isn't a popular opinion at all, but I think restoration and conservation on comic books is just fine, especially if they REALLY need it. Example: I had a Daring Mystery #2 a long time ago (mid 90s) that was complete, but the covers and pages were all completely split ... no two pages were connected anymore. I left it with Matt as a "long term project" to see if he could save its life. Chippity at the edges and difficult (but not impossible) to thumb thru, it was clearly circling the drain, on its last legs and needing extensive resuscitation. One must remember, at that time, Daring Mystery #2 was nearly IMPOSSIBLE to find and was once thought to be the rarest Timely. Now he only worked on it when he had some down time, so it took 2 years, but by gosh he hung that thing back together (HOW still remains a mystery unrevealed) and turned it back into a handleable, readable, ENJOYABLE comic book! Sure, it was EXTENSIVELY restored ... it had the FULL MONTY ... pages treated (I don't know the process), the entire spine of the comic was completely rebuilt, and it had a chemical smell to it, BUT he saved its life, which allowed me to enjoy it for quite a while until a life situation forced the sale of most of my prized Timely collection. I'm almost completely CERTAIN that had nothing been done with the comic, it'd be a pile of dust by now (some 25 + years later)!!! They don't make Golden Age anymore, so saving that Daring Mystery kept a copy in the hobby. I have NO idea where it is now, but I'd know it if I saw it again. I hope whoever has it is enjoying it!  

I definitely agree that collectors overreact to restoration. I have a raw copy of Haunt of Fear #17 that has minor restoration to the back cover, and I find it bizarre that this high-demand EC horror book, that is in 5.0-6.0 range, has its value slashed practically in half because of a small piece glued back onto the back cover. I'm interested to see how collectors' views on restored Golden Age will change in the future, if it will at all. I would think people will become slowly more interested in "PLOD" copies of books that are hard to come by in universal grade, due to cost and/or scarcity.

Incidentally, I inherited a complete copy of Human Torch #13 that is taped up along the spine and has pieces missing from the cover. I have long contemplated getting restoration work done on, because although the book is not profoundly rare, it is sufficiently difficult to find copies on the open market, let alone an affordable copy. As much as I would like to find an upgrade. I am not sure how this compares to your Daring Mystery #2 in its pre-restoration state, but I have always thought some touch-up would do this book nicely. 

Edited June 29, 2023 by L'Angelo Misterioso

[D84]

On 6/29/2023 at 5:54 PM, L'Angelo Misterioso said:

I definitely agree that collectors overreact to restoration. I have a raw copy of Haunt of Fear #17 that has minor restoration to the back cover, and I find it bizarre that this high-demand EC horror book, that is in 5.0-6.0 range, has its value slashed practically in half because of a small piece glued back onto the back cover. I'm interested to see how collectors' views on restored Golden Age will change in the future, if it will at all. I would think people will become slowly more interested in "PLOD" copies of books that are hard to come by in universal grade, due to cost and/or scarcity.

Incidentally, I inherited a complete copy of Human Torch #13 that is taped up along the spine and has pieces missing from the cover. I have long contemplated getting restoration work done on, because although the book is not profoundly rare, it is sufficiently difficult to find copies on the open market, let alone an affordable copy. As much as I would like to find an upgrade. I am not sure how this compares to your Daring Mystery #2 in its pre-restoration state, but I have always thought some touch-up would do this book nicely. 

When I can convince myself to part with it for a couple years, this will get this frankenbook restored.

[Frisco Larson]

On 6/29/2023 at 3:48 PM, Point Five said:

That's awesome! Agreed, I think resto is perfectly fine in those cases.

For many years I've owned a nice-looking Hangman #3 with a brittle spine (not quite as far gone as your Daring Mystery, but getting there). If memory serves I sent it to Kenny Sanderson to explore possible conservation, and he didn't think it was possible to conserve it due to the degree of brittleness... but this was maybe 2007 or so, right when leafcasting GA books was in its infancy... I think he'd only done one or two leafcasting jobs at that point. My guess is it could indeed be done today, though it may well be as time-consuming (= expensive) as you describe.

 

It's difficult for me to remember exactly the brittleness of the pages apart from the edges this long afterward, but Matt was able to save it and as I understand it, Matt is responsible for a lot of Kenny's training, so I would guess Matt shared his knowledge on the process. Kenny is amazing, an absolute WIZARD with that leaf casting technique!!! His work in the field is absolutely revolutionary!!! A perfect example of a process that needed to be developed so that rare paper artifacts have a long future for later generations to enjoy and learn from!!! What did you end up doing with that Hangman #3, if you don't mind me asking?

[Frisco Larson]

On 6/29/2023 at 5:54 PM, L'Angelo Misterioso said:

I definitely agree that collectors overreact to restoration. I have a raw copy of Haunt of Fear #17 that has minor restoration to the back cover, and I find it bizarre that this high-demand EC horror book, that is in 5.0-6.0 range, has its value slashed practically in half because of a small piece glued back onto the back cover. I'm interested to see how collectors' views on restored Golden Age will change in the future, if it will at all. I would think people will become slowly more interested in "PLOD" copies of books that are hard to come by in universal grade, due to cost and/or scarcity.

Incidentally, I inherited a complete copy of Human Torch #13 that is taped up along the spine and has pieces missing from the cover. I have long contemplated getting restoration work done on, because although the book is not profoundly rare, it is sufficiently difficult to find copies on the open market, let alone an affordable copy. As much as I would like to find an upgrade. I am not sure how this compares to your Daring Mystery #2 in its pre-restoration state, but I have always thought some touch-up would do this book nicely. 

You're correct, many collectors DO overreact to restoration and I've been around long enough to remember a time that greatly contributed to that reaction. You see, "most" of the prevailing hatred toward restoration was born out of collectors unknowingly buying books with undisclosed restoration and finding out at a later point in time that their book had 'work' on it and was therefore worth substantially less than they thought it was. That left them feeling 'ripped off' by the dealer or collector they purchased it from, so of course, they blamed the seller as well as the comic book, not themselves for failing to spot the restoration. Their future attitude: Restoration BAD!!! Well, not really. If disclosed in advance, a restored comic is a fantastic way to obtain a copy of a book that you might not otherwise be able to afford in an unrestored state. So, knowledge is power and lack of it is sour ... but don't blame the comic book! All a comic book wants is for you to be happy! 

As far as your Human Torch issue is concerned, some mild conservation might really tighten it up nicely. Tape removal and split and tear sealing done professionally would be considered conservation. Once color touch is introduced it becomes restored though. Matt or Kenny could give you a better idea of what you'd be looking at for cost and such.

[Professor K]

Alex Shomburg is over-rated. This doesn't mean we can't still be friends I hope.

[Cat-Man_America]

On 6/29/2023 at 6:06 AM, jimbo_7071 said:

Younger people are aware of WWII just like I'm aware of WWI and the Civil War, but the personal connection won't be there. My grandfather served in WWII and I grew up around my grandfather; one of my substitute teachers in high school had served in the Pacific theater and told us first-hand account of liberating prisoners who had been part of the Bataan death March, etc. 

I'm not convinced that just "knowing about" something translates into the kind of fervent interest that Boomers and Gen Xers have had. Heck, some guys here in the GA forum may be old enough to have had fathers who served in WWII, mothers who were in the USO during the war, etc.

Comic book collecting may give way to other hobbies eventually, but it occur slowly. I'm 49; my feeling is that I could live long enough to see my GA collection lose quite a bit of equity if collecting comics becomes more of a niche hobby some years down the road. We have a few guys here who are over 70; I don't think those guys need to worry.

True, but the personal connection with any "just war" is more acute than with "just another war" and that may be where the distinction rests. It's much easier to see the virtue of a war fought to end slavery or tyranny and world dominance than those which have gray areas of justification such as colonial expansion or profit and in some cases those have ended badly for the self-righteous protagonists. WWII was clear cut, easier to define and form a vicarious relationship with even though it's before the time of almost every living collector today. 

Having relatives who served isn't enough to develop a collectibles connection with the event. Historical interest, maybe, but it's often fascination with the more fictionalized aspects of the era that fuels appeal for successive generations. There are still fans of Robin Hood today, even though the story is a composite of many characters real and imagined. The western is another example of storytelling which continually evolves and will be with us for future generations.

Other hobbies will arise, no doubt about that (we've seen several come into their own in recent years), but as the collectibles marketplace expands, so do the variety and number of collectors. There's no reason to think those that have thrived for a long time will fade away like Gen. Douglas MacArthur during the Korean War.

Hey, I resemble that remark! ...And I don't. 

On 6/29/2023 at 7:17 PM, Professor K said:

Alex Shomburg is over-rated. This doesn't mean we can't still be friends I hope.

No problem, I can be friends with someone who's wrong. 

Edited June 30, 2023 by Cat-Man_America
Ale added; typos corrected or added!