What's stopping publishers from fiddling with printing identification...?

[steveinthecity]

Found this Frank Brunner interview....

"And you know why? I don't know exactly how it happened, but they printed what they thought they could sell, and obviously, it wasn't enough. It was the first Marvel comic that went back to reprint as a first issue—not really a reprint, they just went back to press again and printed more.

 

http://twomorrows.com/comicbookartist/articles/06brunner.html

Thanks for the link. I have read that, and of course you've seen the info put forth in the HTD #1 2nd Printing thread. I suppose I've never been swayed to believe there was a second print, unless the "2nd" print occurred within days of the initial printing for some reason related to a delay in the printers ability to complete the full run as ordered.

[Lonzilla]

Found this Frank Brunner interview....

"And you know why? I don't know exactly how it happened, but they printed what they thought they could sell, and obviously, it wasn't enough. It was the first Marvel comic that went back to reprint as a first issue—not really a reprint, they just went back to press again and printed more.

 

http://twomorrows.com/comicbookartist/articles/06brunner.html

Thanks for the link. I have read that, and of course you've seen the info put forth in the HTD #1 2nd Printing thread. I suppose I've never been swayed to believe there was a second print, unless the "2nd" print occurred within days of the initial printing for some reason related to a delay in the printers ability to complete the full run as ordered.

I'm taking Brunner at his word since it seems to be a sticking point with him about why he left the book but I wish I could remember where I saw the interview with Stan Lee talking about it being reprinted.

 

It is funny that they call 275k copies "low print" haha. Back then it was, but think of how many great books were cancelled because of "low sales" in the 1970's Green Lantern / Green Arrow, Warlock, Omega The Unknown, Man-Thing, Fear, X-Men (going to reprints only). Their 1970's low sales numbers would be probably middle of the pack to high numbers today.

Imagining what Jim Starlin could've done with another 2, 3 or 5 years of Warlock

[fastballspecial]

Found this Frank Brunner interview....

"And you know why? I don't know exactly how it happened, but they printed what they thought they could sell, and obviously, it wasn't enough. It was the first Marvel comic that went back to reprint as a first issue—not really a reprint, they just went back to press again and printed more.

 

http://twomorrows.com/comicbookartist/articles/06brunner.html

Thanks for the link. I have read that, and of course you've seen the info put forth in the HTD #1 2nd Printing thread. I suppose I've never been swayed to believe there was a second print, unless the "2nd" print occurred within days of the initial printing for some reason related to a delay in the printers ability to complete the full run as ordered.

I'm taking Brunner at his word since it seems to be a sticking point with him about why he left the book but I wish I could remember where I saw the interview with Stan Lee talking about it being reprinted.

 

It is funny that they call 275k copies "low print" haha. Back then it was, but think of how many great books were cancelled because of "low sales" in the 1970's Green Lantern / Green Arrow, Warlock, Omega The Unknown, Man-Thing, Fear, X-Men (going to reprints only). Their 1970's low sales numbers would be probably middle of the pack to high numbers today.

Imagining what Jim Starlin could've done with another 2, 3 or 5 years of Warlock

 

Really makes the market that much more pathetic as we look back at those numbers.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Found this Frank Brunner interview....

"And you know why? I don't know exactly how it happened, but they printed what they thought they could sell, and obviously, it wasn't enough. It was the first Marvel comic that went back to reprint as a first issuenot really a reprint, they just went back to press again and printed more.

 

http://twomorrows.com/comicbookartist/articles/06brunner.html

Thanks for the link. I have read that, and of course you've seen the info put forth in the HTD #1 2nd Printing thread. I suppose I've never been swayed to believe there was a second print, unless the "2nd" print occurred within days of the initial printing for some reason related to a delay in the printers ability to complete the full run as ordered.

 

That discussion was part of the impetus for this thread.

 

I suspect that this "reprint" that Brunner remembers is the Treasury, as discussed, though it's certainly possible that Sparta (which was printing Marvel comics at the time) just went back to press a few weeks later and didn't designate it...and why would they? There was no precedent for doing so.

[Doc McCoy]

Wasn't this a recent issue with Aspen and the Harley Quinn Rebirth copies they were selling? Initially they stated there was only going to be a limited run on them, but the demand was high, so they exceeded their stated amount, which ticked off a lot of collectors.

 

For their Batman Rebirth issues, they did a 2nd print and changed the cover slightly by making the background a different color, but for Harley, they just printed more.

[juggernaut]

I was about to mention this. Some of the publishers do this. They know they can shift another X number of copies just by printing a different cover or altering the cover slightly and declaring it a second print. It has another benefit of allowing them to declare the comic as "sold out" and in demand, despite the fact the first prints are sitting in comic shops across the country.

 

I wouldn't suggest it's never happened anywhere, but that wouldn't be without risk -- you'd be cutting off advanced reorders and/or reorders and thus turning down guaranteed money. Which, of course, nobody likes to do.

 

Then, because you've declared it a 2nd print, you (probably) have to get diamond to collect orders on the 'new printing', and if you're actually noting it as a second print on the interior indicia (and it's not on the inside cover) you're maybe incurring the expense of a separate print job anyway, and it's a small one, so your cost per unit is higher.

 

Meanwhile, if it really was a marketing ploy and retailers did still have the first prints sitting around, 2nd print orders may end up soft and you've got a minor financial debacle in the making.

 

Again, wouldn't doubt it's happened, but I also wouldn't be surprised that there was no net benefit to doing it when all was said and done. Of course, that sometimes doesn't stop people...

 

The interior of these second prints are the same as the interior of the first prints, because they came off the presses at the same time. The only difference is the cover.

 

And there is at least one publisher that, at least initially, used this as a marketing tool. I don't know if they still do this or not.

 

And you know this, how?

 

-J.

 

Identical. Marketed as 1st prints. Printed and released at the same time.

 

 

[Lonzilla]

Found this Frank Brunner interview....

"And you know why? I don't know exactly how it happened, but they printed what they thought they could sell, and obviously, it wasn't enough. It was the first Marvel comic that went back to reprint as a first issuenot really a reprint, they just went back to press again and printed more.

 

http://twomorrows.com/comicbookartist/articles/06brunner.html

Thanks for the link. I have read that, and of course you've seen the info put forth in the HTD #1 2nd Printing thread. I suppose I've never been swayed to believe there was a second print, unless the "2nd" print occurred within days of the initial printing for some reason related to a delay in the printers ability to complete the full run as ordered.

 

That discussion was part of the impetus for this thread.

 

I suspect that this "reprint" that Brunner remembers is the Treasury, as discussed, though it's certainly possible that Sparta (which was printing Marvel comics at the time) just went back to press a few weeks later and didn't designate it...and why would they? There was no precedent for doing so.

The Treasury didn't come out until several months later. I believe that Brunner is saying that HTD #1 itself was reprinted before issue #2 was released. Brunner did the cover for the Dr Strange treasury edition, so he knows the difference between a treasury and a 25 center. Be nice if Steve Gerber was still with us to say for sure

[natevegas]

Found this Frank Brunner interview....

"And you know why? I don't know exactly how it happened, but they printed what they thought they could sell, and obviously, it wasn't enough. It was the first Marvel comic that went back to reprint as a first issue—not really a reprint, they just went back to press again and printed more.

 

http://twomorrows.com/comicbookartist/articles/06brunner.html

Thanks for the link. I have read that, and of course you've seen the info put forth in the HTD #1 2nd Printing thread. I suppose I've never been swayed to believe there was a second print, unless the "2nd" print occurred within days of the initial printing for some reason related to a delay in the printers ability to complete the full run as ordered.

I'm taking Brunner at his word since it seems to be a sticking point with him about why he left the book but I wish I could remember where I saw the interview with Stan Lee talking about it being reprinted.

 

It is funny that they call 275k copies "low print" haha. Back then it was, but think of how many great books were cancelled because of "low sales" in the 1970's Green Lantern / Green Arrow, Warlock, Omega The Unknown, Man-Thing, Fear, X-Men (going to reprints only). Their 1970's low sales numbers would be probably middle of the pack to high numbers today.

Imagining what Jim Starlin could've done with another 2, 3 or 5 years of Warlock

 

Really makes the market that much more pathetic as we look back at those numbers.

This x 1 million. Numbers versus perspective.

[natevegas]

I was about to mention this. Some of the publishers do this. They know they can shift another X number of copies just by printing a different cover or altering the cover slightly and declaring it a second print. It has another benefit of allowing them to declare the comic as "sold out" and in demand, despite the fact the first prints are sitting in comic shops across the country.

 

I wouldn't suggest it's never happened anywhere, but that wouldn't be without risk -- you'd be cutting off advanced reorders and/or reorders and thus turning down guaranteed money. Which, of course, nobody likes to do.

 

Then, because you've declared it a 2nd print, you (probably) have to get diamond to collect orders on the 'new printing', and if you're actually noting it as a second print on the interior indicia (and it's not on the inside cover) you're maybe incurring the expense of a separate print job anyway, and it's a small one, so your cost per unit is higher.

 

Meanwhile, if it really was a marketing ploy and retailers did still have the first prints sitting around, 2nd print orders may end up soft and you've got a minor financial debacle in the making.

 

Again, wouldn't doubt it's happened, but I also wouldn't be surprised that there was no net benefit to doing it when all was said and done. Of course, that sometimes doesn't stop people...

 

The interior of these second prints are the same as the interior of the first prints, because they came off the presses at the same time. The only difference is the cover.

 

And there is at least one publisher that, at least initially, used this as a marketing tool. I don't know if they still do this or not.

 

And you know this, how?

 

-J.

 

Identical. Marketed as 1st prints. Printed and released at the same time.

 

 

Second print is marked as 00127

First print was 00111

[RockMyAmadeus]

Found this Frank Brunner interview....

"And you know why? I don't know exactly how it happened, but they printed what they thought they could sell, and obviously, it wasn't enough. It was the first Marvel comic that went back to reprint as a first issuenot really a reprint, they just went back to press again and printed more.

 

http://twomorrows.com/comicbookartist/articles/06brunner.html

Thanks for the link. I have read that, and of course you've seen the info put forth in the HTD #1 2nd Printing thread. I suppose I've never been swayed to believe there was a second print, unless the "2nd" print occurred within days of the initial printing for some reason related to a delay in the printers ability to complete the full run as ordered.

 

That discussion was part of the impetus for this thread.

 

I suspect that this "reprint" that Brunner remembers is the Treasury, as discussed, though it's certainly possible that Sparta (which was printing Marvel comics at the time) just went back to press a few weeks later and didn't designate it...and why would they? There was no precedent for doing so.

The Treasury didn't come out until several months later. I believe that Brunner is saying that HTD #1 itself was reprinted before issue #2 was released. Brunner did the cover for the Dr Strange treasury edition, so he knows the difference between a treasury and a 25 center. Be nice if Steve Gerber was still with us to say for sure

 

Maybe, maybe not. If HTD #1 was reprinted in exact form, why was it not mentioned anywhere officially, and why was HTD #1 such a high demand issue for quite some time after? After all, if they reprinted it within weeks, those reprints would have gone into normal channels, and they would have been absorbed by the market. The "reprints" would have had a mitigating effect on the value of the "originals."

 

And yet, history says that HTD #1 was pretty valuable, for quite some time.

 

Also...someone, somewhere would have said something. These things just don't happen under cover of darkness with no one knowing, especially if Brunner knew about it. He didn't work in circulation, and artists are very frequently removed from circulation decisions, even if they tended to watch circulation numbers like hawks.

[Lonzilla]

Found this Frank Brunner interview....

"And you know why? I don't know exactly how it happened, but they printed what they thought they could sell, and obviously, it wasn't enough. It was the first Marvel comic that went back to reprint as a first issuenot really a reprint, they just went back to press again and printed more.

 

http://twomorrows.com/comicbookartist/articles/06brunner.html

Thanks for the link. I have read that, and of course you've seen the info put forth in the HTD #1 2nd Printing thread. I suppose I've never been swayed to believe there was a second print, unless the "2nd" print occurred within days of the initial printing for some reason related to a delay in the printers ability to complete the full run as ordered.

 

That discussion was part of the impetus for this thread.

 

I suspect that this "reprint" that Brunner remembers is the Treasury, as discussed, though it's certainly possible that Sparta (which was printing Marvel comics at the time) just went back to press a few weeks later and didn't designate it...and why would they? There was no precedent for doing so.

The Treasury didn't come out until several months later. I believe that Brunner is saying that HTD #1 itself was reprinted before issue #2 was released. Brunner did the cover for the Dr Strange treasury edition, so he knows the difference between a treasury and a 25 center. Be nice if Steve Gerber was still with us to say for sure

 

Maybe, maybe not. If HTD #1 was reprinted in exact form, why was it not mentioned anywhere officially, and why was HTD #1 such a high demand issue for quite some time after? After all, if they reprinted it within weeks, those reprints would have gone into normal channels, and they would have been absorbed by the market. The "reprints" would have had a mitigating effect on the value of the "originals."

 

And yet, history says that HTD #1 was pretty valuable, for quite some time.

 

Also...someone, somewhere would have said something. These things just don't happen under cover of darkness with no one knowing, especially if Brunner knew about it. He didn't work in circulation, and artists are very frequently removed from circulation decisions, even if they tended to watch circulation numbers like hawks.

HTD #1 was hoarded by people who thought it would be another FF #1. There were only 2 comic shops in the city when I was a kid and I remember the one "Comics For Collectors" selling HTD #1 for $25 (same price they were charging for Conan #1 at the time). For months you couldn't find any HTD issue on a spinner rack anywhere and you were king sh*t of the schoolyard if you did!

(#8 was my first).

With artists being paid peanuts per page, Brunner wanted a bonus because of the rush reprint, maybe it just casually came up in conversation between him and Gerber or him and Stan like "damn we had to send out for another 25,000 copies" who knows?

If I ever meet Brunner at a convention, after praising his decades of fantastic work, that would be the first thing I'd ask him

[steveinthecity]

Found this Frank Brunner interview....

"And you know why? I don't know exactly how it happened, but they printed what they thought they could sell, and obviously, it wasn't enough. It was the first Marvel comic that went back to reprint as a first issuenot really a reprint, they just went back to press again and printed more.

 

http://twomorrows.com/comicbookartist/articles/06brunner.html

Thanks for the link. I have read that, and of course you've seen the info put forth in the HTD #1 2nd Printing thread. I suppose I've never been swayed to believe there was a second print, unless the "2nd" print occurred within days of the initial printing for some reason related to a delay in the printers ability to complete the full run as ordered.

 

That discussion was part of the impetus for this thread.

 

I suspect that this "reprint" that Brunner remembers is the Treasury, as discussed, though it's certainly possible that Sparta (which was printing Marvel comics at the time) just went back to press a few weeks later and didn't designate it...and why would they? There was no precedent for doing so.

The Treasury didn't come out until several months later. I believe that Brunner is saying that HTD #1 itself was reprinted before issue #2 was released. Brunner did the cover for the Dr Strange treasury edition, so he knows the difference between a treasury and a 25 center. Be nice if Steve Gerber was still with us to say for sure

 

Maybe, maybe not. If HTD #1 was reprinted in exact form, why was it not mentioned anywhere officially, and why was HTD #1 such a high demand issue for quite some time after? After all, if they reprinted it within weeks, those reprints would have gone into normal channels, and they would have been absorbed by the market. The "reprints" would have had a mitigating effect on the value of the "originals."

 

And yet, history says that HTD #1 was pretty valuable, for quite some time.

 

Also...someone, somewhere would have said something. These things just don't happen under cover of darkness with no one knowing, especially if Brunner knew about it. He didn't work in circulation, and artists are very frequently removed from circulation decisions, even if they tended to watch circulation numbers like hawks.

 

HTD #1 was hoarded by people who thought it would be another FF #1. There were only 2 comic shops in the city when I was a kid and I remember the one "Comics For Collectors" selling HTD #1 for $25 (same price they were charging for Conan #1 at the time). For months you couldn't find any HTD issue on a spinner rack anywhere and you were king sh*t of the schoolyard if you did!

(#8 was my first).

With artists being paid peanuts per page, Brunner wanted a bonus because of the rush reprint, maybe it just casually came up in conversation between him and Gerber or him and Stan like "damn we had to send out for another 25,000 copies" who knows?

If I ever meet Brunner at a convention, after praising his decades of fantastic work, that would be the first thing I'd ask him

Are you thinking a second print would also have been scooped up by hoarders or dealers before going out into the primary market through normal distribution channels? How would those people have known there was another batch of HTD #1 on the way?