CGC et al To Aggressively Defend Against Lawsuit Filed In Pennsylvania 11 11

[porcupine48]

For those of us who are not familiar with this, could someone explain the situation in basic terms?

Butthurt

Industrial?

You're here, so I would assume so.

Hey,I just came by to say hi to my buddies.. Edited December 24, 2016 by porcupine48

[lizards2]

For those of us who are not familiar with this, could someone explain the situation in basic terms?

Butthurt

Industrial?

You're here, so I would assume so.

Hey,I just came by to say hi to my buddies..

 

buttholio!

[Transplant]

15. Defendant CGC further operates the largest comic book collector's forum on the internet called "Collector's Society," where it controls the substance, content, and message of discussions.

 

 

What?!

 

 

What a dumb waste of time. These people are insufficiently_thoughtful_persons.

Haven't read the complaint, but what you bolded is actually true.

[HarveySwick]

Aside from occasional deletion, they don't really control the substance, content and message of discussions. They set guidelines and if you stick within the parameter of those guidelines, I don't see them controlling anything.

[grebal]

Aside from occasional deletion, they don't really control the substance, content and message of discussions. They set guidelines and if you stick within the parameter of those guidelines, I don't see them controlling anything.

 

Fair enough, but "control" can readily be understood to include the ability to censor and delete content they view (without appeal, really) to violate their rules.

 

I agree they don't control what I say, and I only once sent books for grading so I'm not a big consumer of theirs.

[HENRYSPENCER]

To be honest with you all, I'm still disgruntled at how CGC handled the whole Jason Ewert situation a decade ago. Yes Ewert purposely trimmed books, sent them to CGC and sold them as advertised according to their assigned CGC condition grades. However on the other hand CGC should be responsible down to the very last penny for restitution to each individual buyer who was defrauded at the cost they paid for the book.

 

In clear conscience I could never knowingly sell a book as unrestored if I or someone else did something to manipulate it that would alter the grade, but there are a lot of people out there who will call a spade a spade and sell an item based off what CGC thinks and thinks alone; no matter if it is manipulated or not.

 

 

[HENRYSPENCER]

I'm not an attorney but considering CGC is in Florida wouldn't the lawsuit have to be filed in Florida? They sued in Philadelphia?

[HarveySwick]

Where either party resides or conducts business. The Plaintiffs live in PA and operate their business there.

[HENRYSPENCER]

Where either party resides or conducts business.

 

Thanks. I didn't know this.

[comicwiz]

There is no better example of this in recent memory when comic wreckers were deleting posts and entire threads with people illustrating examples of books being destroyed in their "new and improved slab."

 

I don't know how you can be a self appointed "protector" of the hobby when you delete consumer complaints about a slab that was wrecking people's comics, or when you shrink comic covers when there was no reason to be pressing them within an inch of their lives in the first place. It's ridiculous hearing claims of a slippery slope in colouring techniques when leafcasting had nowhere near the level of alarmism associated to it, and those trying to raise concerns over conflicting interests at the time were pushed aside for not having superior marketing skills. The mouth pieces and friendships prevailed over years of experience and benign intent to educate the community.

 

I don't think control is the word I'd use, but I can't say what it really should be called without them deleting the post. The best way to describe directional messaging is like a windsock, and would be actual fact from the way the claim is written, especially when people can't seem to sober up from full submersion dunking in the koolaid.

[grebal]

The thing I like best about this place aside from a community-driven resource of information about my passion is that maybe I'll get a chance to hawk some more of my comics here from time to time.

 

The thing I like least about this place is when threads or posts are "poofed."

[woowoo]

There is no better example of this in recent memory when comic wreckers were deleting posts and entire threads with people illustrating examples of books being destroyed in their "new and improved slab."

 

I don't know how you can be a self appointed "protector" of the hobby when you delete consumer complaints about a slab that was wrecking people's comics, or when you shrink comic covers when there was no reason to be pressing them within an inch of their lives in the first place. It's ridiculous hearing claims of a slippery slope in colouring techniques when leafcasting had nowhere near the level of alarmism associated to it, and those trying to raise concerns over conflicting interests at the time were pushed aside for not having superior marketing skills. The mouth pieces and friendships prevailed over years of experience and benign intent to educate the community.

 

I don't think control is the word I'd use, but I can't say what it really should be called without them deleting the post. The best way to describe directional messaging is like a windsock, and would be actual fact from the way the claim is written, especially when people can't seem to sober up from full submersion dunking in the koolaid.

 

Thats it NO more egg nog and rum for me after that

[comicwiz]

No idea what that means, but knock yourself out. If you can stick your head in the egg nog and iv-drip the rum, always better than the koolaid.

[woowoo]

No idea what that means, but knock yourself out. If you can stick your head in the egg nog and iv-drip the rum, always better than the koolaid.

 

Thanks and Happy holidays to you and your looooong thread that i could not read from to much egg nog I have one more since you say so

[Tony S]

Just a few observations from me. IMHO, this complaint can't get far as it is fundamentally untrue.

 

1) It is not necessary to get books graded to sell them. My own experience is that restored books often get better prices raw. Because slabbed restored books scream "restored" on the label. Restored raw books just sit in bag and board and look pretty. In addition, the vast, overwhelming number of collectors - and comic book stores for that matter- do not own slabbed books.

 

2) IBG's complaint comes down to CGC had started to grade their restored books - or more specifically books restored using their techniques - more harshly than in the past. That CGC is the dominate grading company and their graded books sell for more money. And that they (IGB) were injured by such.

 

CGC has legitimate, well established competition. The competitors books also are sold at Heritage, the auction house with ties to CGC's parent company. It would be easy to put together a list of sales where Voldemort graded books sold for as much or even more money than the same books graded by CGC. At Heritage, at ComicLink. At ComicConnect.

 

So even if it is true that CGC has become more strict on grading books using the restoration techniques IGB employs, I don't see where the harm is. IGB now sends their books to that legitimate competitor. Where the grades are more to their liking. That is a free market at work.

 

I use both companies for grading....and I sometimes consider what company might give the higher grade given the exact defects the book(s) have. The grading companies are similar - but not the same. Nor is there any reasonable expectation or law that says they must be the same. It would be like expecting a Ford Mustang to perform EXACTLY the same as a Chevy Camaro. And expecting Ford and Chevy to NEVER change the design of the Mustang and Camaro.

 

While some parts of the complaint might make interesting debates on these forums - restoration always generates heated discussion and the moderation of the boards irks a few - the fundamental complaint of harm done to IBG by CGC's grading of their books looks like simple butthurt. There are other choices for grading. Use them. Which is what they did.

 

Edited December 24, 2016 by Tony S

[crassus]

Just a few observations from me. IMHO, this complaint can't get far as it is fundamentally untrue.

 

1) It is not necessary to get books graded to sell them. My own experience is that restored books often get better prices raw. Because slabbed restored books scream "restored" on the label. Restored raw books just sit in bag and board and look pretty. In addition, the vast, overwhelming number of collectors - and comic book stores for that matter- do not own slabbed books.

 

2) IBG's complaint comes down to CGC had started to grade their restored books - or more specifically books restored using their techniques - more harshly than in the past. That CGC is the dominate grading company and their graded books sell for more money. And that they (IGB) were injured by such.

 

CGC has legitimate, well established competition. The competitors books also are sold at Heritage, the auction house with ties to CGC's parent company. It would be easy to put together a list of sales where Voldemort graded books sold for as much or even more money than the same books graded by CGC. At Heritage, at ComicLink. At ComicConnect.

 

So even if it is true that CGC has become more strict on grading books using the restoration techniques IGB employs, I don't see where the harm is. IGB now sends their books to that legitimate competitor. Where the grades are more to their liking. That is a free market at work.

 

I use both companies for grading....and I sometimes consider what company might give the higher grade given the exact defects the book(s) have. The grading companies are similar - but not the same. Nor is there any reasonable expectation or law that says they must be the same. It would be like expecting a Ford Mustang to perform EXACTLY the same as a Chevy Camaro. And expecting Ford and Chevy to NEVER change the design of the Mustang and Camaro.

 

While some parts of the complaint might make interesting debates on these forums - restoration always generates heated discussion and the moderation of the boards irks a few - the fundamental complaint of harm done to IBG by CGC's grading of their books looks like simple butthurt. There are other choices for grading. Use them. Which is what they did.

 

The bold above is mine to draw attention to this point. It is of course perfectly legal in a free market to eliminate the competition by outperforming and outselling the competitor, all else being equal. For the plaintiffs the issue is not an otherwise normative business decision by the defendants to opt for one industry standard over another. That indeed would be "just business". The plaintiffs are alleging that the defendants have knowingly propagated untruths about the plaintiffs in order to eliminate the competition by destroying their reputation.

 

Reputation is not something protected or repaired by resort to the free market. Reputation is a kind of universal and omnipresent precondition for operating in the marketplace. A good one follows you as an asset. A damaged one follows you like a bad smell.

 

 

[Tony S]

Just a few observations from me. IMHO, this complaint can't get far as it is fundamentally untrue.

 

1) It is not necessary to get books graded to sell them. My own experience is that restored books often get better prices raw. Because slabbed restored books scream "restored" on the label. Restored raw books just sit in bag and board and look pretty. In addition, the vast, overwhelming number of collectors - and comic book stores for that matter- do not own slabbed books.

 

2) IBG's complaint comes down to CGC had started to grade their restored books - or more specifically books restored using their techniques - more harshly than in the past. That CGC is the dominate grading company and their graded books sell for more money. And that they (IGB) were injured by such.

 

CGC has legitimate, well established competition. The competitors books also are sold at Heritage, the auction house with ties to CGC's parent company. It would be easy to put together a list of sales where Voldemort graded books sold for as much or even more money than the same books graded by CGC. At Heritage, at ComicLink. At ComicConnect.

 

So even if it is true that CGC has become more strict on grading books using the restoration techniques IGB employs, I don't see where the harm is. IGB now sends their books to that legitimate competitor. Where the grades are more to their liking. That is a free market at work.

 

I use both companies for grading....and I sometimes consider what company might give the higher grade given the exact defects the book(s) have. The grading companies are similar - but not the same. Nor is there any reasonable expectation or law that says they must be the same. It would be like expecting a Ford Mustang to perform EXACTLY the same as a Chevy Camaro. And expecting Ford and Chevy to NEVER change the design of the Mustang and Camaro.

 

While some parts of the complaint might make interesting debates on these forums - restoration always generates heated discussion and the moderation of the boards irks a few - the fundamental complaint of harm done to IBG by CGC's grading of their books looks like simple butthurt. There are other choices for grading. Use them. Which is what they did.

 

The bold above is mine to draw attention to this point. It is of course perfectly legal in a free market to eliminate the competition by outperforming and outselling the competitor, all else being equal. For the plaintiffs the issue is not an otherwise normative business decision by the defendants to opt for one industry standard over another. That indeed would be "just business". The plaintiffs are alleging that the defendants have knowingly propagated untruths about the plaintiffs in order to eliminate the competition by destroying their reputation.

 

Reputation is not something protected or repaired by resort to the free market. Reputation is a kind of universal and omnipresent precondition for operating in the marketplace. A good one follows you as an asset. A damaged one follows you like a bad smell.

 

 

You make a good point on the "reputation" issue of the complaint. Thank you.

 

I think the reputation part is mostly opinion. Of course the courts rule on such lawsuits all the time. But we aren't talking about CNN reports or the Washington Post newspaper. We are talking about a discussion board with an official moderation rule of not allowing promotion of competitors.

 

I'm better informed about comic book stuff, restoration issues and on the boards fairly regularly - and I never heard of IGB before. I don't read the Golden Age posts. I had noticed that some 9.4 restored big keys were appearing on the market. But didn't give that much thought.

 

Many board members I have long believed sort of get lost in the level of importance the Collector Society boards have in the hobby and just how common professionally graded and slabbed books are. This place is small compared to the collecting universe. The number of people that collect slabbed books is small compared to the collecting universe. If you look at say the Wikipedia article on comic book collection, this discussion board isn't even mentioned. Comics.org and the comic book database are. This place is important to some that visit. But my experience is the vast majority of collectors walking into a comic book store have never heard of the Collector Society board, don't own any slabbed books.

 

With a few resources one could probably arrive at a rough estimate of the number of comic book fans. Circulation of the OPG, comic book store orders through Diamond, attendance of shows. The average daily, weekly, monthly attendance of unique visitors here and even how many people have read related posts are no doubt available here

 

I suspect that the percentage of likely comic book collectors and fans that are board members that visit regularly is SHOCKINGLY small. Like tiny, minuscule.

 

So lets say I'm judge or jury member, told to focus on just the potential damage to the reputation of the plaintiff. I'd first have to be convinced that even a mostly one sided discussions on a fan discussion board resulted in any damage. It's a discussion board, not a news organization. It's like suing people for talking to each other.

Edited December 24, 2016 by Tony S

[jimjum12]

....In retrospect, perhaps CGC should have accepted the books and given them an "NG" ........ and the last time I checked, the identity of a specific restoration technician is never touted or revealed in an auction setting..... so how much reputation is actually involved ? GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a fiend of jesus)

[crassus]

Just a few observations from me. IMHO, this complaint can't get far as it is fundamentally untrue.

 

1) It is not necessary to get books graded to sell them. My own experience is that restored books often get better prices raw. Because slabbed restored books scream "restored" on the label. Restored raw books just sit in bag and board and look pretty. In addition, the vast, overwhelming number of collectors - and comic book stores for that matter- do not own slabbed books.

 

2) IBG's complaint comes down to CGC had started to grade their restored books - or more specifically books restored using their techniques - more harshly than in the past. That CGC is the dominate grading company and their graded books sell for more money. And that they (IGB) were injured by such.

 

CGC has legitimate, well established competition. The competitors books also are sold at Heritage, the auction house with ties to CGC's parent company. It would be easy to put together a list of sales where Voldemort graded books sold for as much or even more money than the same books graded by CGC. At Heritage, at ComicLink. At ComicConnect.

 

So even if it is true that CGC has become more strict on grading books using the restoration techniques IGB employs, I don't see where the harm is. IGB now sends their books to that legitimate competitor. Where the grades are more to their liking. That is a free market at work.

 

I use both companies for grading....and I sometimes consider what company might give the higher grade given the exact defects the book(s) have. The grading companies are similar - but not the same. Nor is there any reasonable expectation or law that says they must be the same. It would be like expecting a Ford Mustang to perform EXACTLY the same as a Chevy Camaro. And expecting Ford and Chevy to NEVER change the design of the Mustang and Camaro.

 

While some parts of the complaint might make interesting debates on these forums - restoration always generates heated discussion and the moderation of the boards irks a few - the fundamental complaint of harm done to IBG by CGC's grading of their books looks like simple butthurt. There are other choices for grading. Use them. Which is what they did.

 

The bold above is mine to draw attention to this point. It is of course perfectly legal in a free market to eliminate the competition by outperforming and outselling the competitor, all else being equal. For the plaintiffs the issue is not an otherwise normative business decision by the defendants to opt for one industry standard over another. That indeed would be "just business". The plaintiffs are alleging that the defendants have knowingly propagated untruths about the plaintiffs in order to eliminate the competition by destroying their reputation.

 

Reputation is not something protected or repaired by resort to the free market. Reputation is a kind of universal and omnipresent precondition for operating in the marketplace. A good one follows you as an asset. A damaged one follows you like a bad smell.

 

 

You make a good point on the "reputation" issue of the complaint. Thank you.

 

I think the reputation part is mostly opinion. Of course the courts rule on such lawsuits all the time. But we aren't talking about CNN reports or the Washington Post newspaper. We are talking about a discussion board with an official moderation rule of not allowing promotion of competitors.

 

I'm better informed about comic book stuff, restoration issues and on the boards fairly regularly - and I never heard of IGB before. I don't read the Golden Age posts. I had noticed that some 9.4 restored big keys were appearing on the market. But didn't give that much thought.

 

Many board members I have long believed sort of get lost in the level of importance the Collector Society boards have in the hobby and just how common professionally graded and slabbed books are. This place is small compared to the collecting universe. The number of people that collect slabbed books is small compared to the collecting universe. If you look at say the Wikipedia article on comic book collection, this discussion board isn't even mentioned. Comics.org and the comic book database are. This place is important to some that visit. But my experience is the vast majority of collectors walking into a comic book store have never heard of the Collector Society board, don't own any slabbed books.

 

With a few resources one could probably arrive at a rough estimate of the number of comic book fans. Circulation of the OPG, comic book store orders through Diamond, attendance of shows. The average daily, weekly, monthly attendance of unique visitors here and even how many people have read related posts are no doubt available here

 

I suspect that the percentage of likely comic book collectors and fans that are board members that visit regularly is SHOCKINGLY small. Like tiny, minuscule.

 

So lets say I'm judge or jury member, told to focus on just the potential damage to the reputation of the plaintiff. I'd first have to be convinced that even a mostly one sided discussions on a fan discussion board resulted in any damage. It's a discussion board, not a news organization. It's like suing people for talking to each other.

 

In the main I agree with you, and I think you are correct that generally speaking we have a tendency to overestimate the significance of slabbed books within the wider collecting community. Indeed I know local dealers that go about their business daily with almost entirely raw transactions.

 

That said I think there is an argument to be made that within a certain sector of the hobby there is a lot of money at stake in slabbed books, and I think mainly because to move really expensive books quickly its just easier to do so in a slab. Here I am thinking of the big auction venues, and all of them, not just the specific defendant named, promote their auctions by advertising the huge values realized in their auctions.

 

All the defendants need to say is that whatever the community as a whole, there is a large amount of money at stake in the more specific sector of online auction venues, and that in those venues slabs make a significant difference in values realized. If the defendants are able to further establish that statistically CGC slabs realize higher values at auction than their competitors, they will have established at least a plausible premise for damages.

 

 

[Tony S]

 

All the defendants need to say is that whatever the community as a whole, there is a large amount of money at stake in the more specific sector of online auction venues, and that in those venues slabs make a significant difference in values realized. If the defendants are able to further establish that statistically CGC slabs realize higher values at auction than their competitors, they will have established at least a plausible premise for damages.

 

 

Yes. And just to be clear, I'm enjoying and learning from our discussion. <3

 

But this - prices realized of various brand slabs - is something I've paid a fair amount of attention to. That CGC "brings more $$" thing is not near so clear cut as many here and even CGC would have us believe. And it depends on where one sells their slabs.

 

My observation is that CGC and Voldemort slabs on auction sites that focus on comic books (Heritage, Comic Connect, ComicLink) sell for equivalent prices. I've seen many the same book/same grade slabs from both companies close out in auctions literally seconds apart. Little difference in price and typically whichever book looks a bit nicer is the one that sells for the most money.

 

If one sells to the....call them less informed...collectors on Facebook and eBay then you will get some "that's not a CGC graded book" and sometimes lower prices. But better informed collectors know who is running the competition.

 

Better informed collectors have also been skeptical for decades of the wisdom of "investing" in heavily restored keys. Seems like that is an important fact. But I'm not sure how it factors into this legal complaint .....

Edited December 24, 2016 by Tony S