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CGC et al To Aggressively Defend Against Lawsuit Filed In Pennsylvania
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584 posts in this topic

Nearly everybody had no idea who the Meyers were, or what their work actually looked like in hand until that thread in which many people posted images pointing out details that illustrated the work the Meyers were doing to the comics.

 

Imo, most people who read the thread and discussed the issue at conventions etc were in agreement that their work was excessive... And in such a way that while looking slick, pretty, and unblemished, was in reality a spray painted veneer of pristine condition, not the real thing.

 

 

So I suppose the argument "could" be made to blame that thread -- and by extension CGC itself -- for the direction the reputation of their work took afterwards...but To me that's a stretch. The argument could also be made that what really happened was that they had just burst onto the comics scene, and very few people knew anything about them just weeks before the thread began... And therefore a reputation was not tarnished by anyone by any act of volition, but rather as a result of consumers becaming educated to what the fuss was all about these pristine restored books, after which enthusiasm waned naturally.

 

Restoration is still an arcane art. But we are all becoming more astute year by year. Here, what LOOKED like one thing, the same old resto but done better -- was actually something most of us feel went too far , too over painted, and into something else entirely. Something few people wanted to pay for at prices the restorers hoped they sell for.

 

 

Why "afterwards"?

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Maybe not here, but at some point, I do feel this is a topic that should be discussed with greater depth and transparecy than it ever has prior. While I do understand some of the points you raise, to me, many of the opinions bellyaching about IGB's work are being inconsistent with their position on the "unnatural" appearance of recolouring and/or artwork to return a cover to as close to it's original appearance.

 

If you want to discuss "excessive" work, leafcasting and piece additions that were never part of the cover MUST be brought into the fold before any discussion demonizing recolouring techniques in the context of the finished product being returned to as close to the original. Leafcasting is second only to using a facsimile/photocopied cover, yet CGC grades those.

 

If we are talking about work being undone, then I have seen a number of leafcast jobs that either were not "un-doable" or were so hideous in their "before" state, that no one in their right mind would want to go back. Yet CGC grades those too.

 

While I no longer own any restored comics, I have over the years owned several, and the cover gloss/regloss on them not only looked unnatural but you could smell it from across the room. These were all graded by CGC, and the grades ranged from apparent 8.0 to 9.4. I never saw any note or recommendation posted publicly discouraging me from buying these books for reasons they used non-archival chemical agents.

 

I'm all for the endorsement, education and insistence of conservationist approaches to restoration work, but never should it have devolved to a situation where their work was deemed "ungradeable" or that CGC would start "watching" for people's work to make sure they wouldnt be happy with the results.

 

Like I said, the latter must be put into the context of how this negatively impacted their reputation before any dicussion can happen about how interest waned naturally, or how their work was valued by consumers.

 

The Meyers should take one of their books to Pawn Stars so we can get it all on camera, and more people can get a taste of how CGC's impartiality has waned.

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Just curious, what was the negative impact on reputation and when did it occur ( I know what the Complaint states; that is not what I am asking), and when was the reputation firmly established with the collecting public prior to the negative impact?

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IMHO, the way these books performed at auction before/after the thread might be one way to guage. Also, I think the results from a persons work are what entrench their services in our hobby - no one mentions who presses/restores their books in the listings - all their customers care about are how the books grade, and that they squeeze every dollar out of them.

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IMHO, the way these books performed at auction before/after the thread might be one way to guage. Also, I think the results from a persons work are what entrench their services in our hobby - no one mentions who presses/restores their books in the listings - all their customers care about are how the books grade, and that they squeeze every dollar out of them.

 

Thank you. It appears, to me, the claims of the Plaintiff can not actually be substantiated by date or fact.

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IMHO, the way these books performed at auction before/after the thread might be one way to guage. Also, I think the results from a persons work are what entrench their services in our hobby - no one mentions who presses/restores their books in the listings - all their customers care about are how the books grade, and that they squeeze every dollar out of them.

 

Thank you. It appears, to me, the claims of the Plaintiff can not actually be substantiated by date or fact.

 

That's a valid opinion on the surface of a varied range of claims which I too believe will be difficult to substanitate as a whole, but I have no way of debating such an assumption without knowing how you arrived at this understanding yourself. Would you care to elaborate?

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no one mentions who presses/restores their books in the listings -

 

------------

 

they certainly used to. ciccione was/is a good name, right? i bought an all american 27 restored by her because i figured the restoration would be good (and the price was good), but then again, that was 15 years ago.

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no one mentions who presses/restores their books in the listings -

 

------------

 

they certainly used to. ciccione was/is a good name, right? i bought an all american 27 restored by her because i figured the restoration would be good (and the price was good), but then again, that was 15 years ago.

 

100% agree. Before TPG's, COA's or letters detailing/summarizing work carried enough legitimacy and weight. But of course, the tamper evident case and label notes cemented it's place and won out, and the people doing the work faded to the background to the point where most of the slabs bought and sold in the last 10+ years no longer keep any information on who did the work originally, just what was done.

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IMHO, the way these books performed at auction before/after the thread might be one way to guage. Also, I think the results from a persons work are what entrench their services in our hobby - no one mentions who presses/restores their books in the listings - all their customers care about are how the books grade, and that they squeeze every dollar out of them.

 

Thank you. It appears, to me, the claims of the Plaintiff can not actually be substantiated by date or fact.

 

That's a valid opinion on the surface of a varied range of claims which I too believe will be difficult to substanitate as a whole, but I have no way of debating such an assumption without knowing how you arrived at this understanding yourself. Would you care to elaborate?

 

By the posts of the Plaintiffs.

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Funny thing is, I do recall their books selling.

the market doesn't accept extensively restored books at the value IGB was expecting.

 

Didn't the earliest book (or books) sell for a strong dollar until the conversation fired up and took on a life of it's own?

 

I think that is what comicwiz was referring to.

 

if the conversation correctly pointed out that not much of the real covers were present in these books then there isn't anything actionable here .. the truth is always a defense.

 

regardless, wouldn't section 230 of the communications decency act protect cgc here from anything posted on the boards or is that no longer operative? it would preempt any state law tort claims. which is probaby why this should be removed to federal court because a federal judge is more likely to understand this. but it might be too late for that.

 

** the above should not be interpreted as legal advice on my part

 

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no one mentions who presses/restores their books in the listings -

 

------------

 

they certainly used to. ciccione was/is a good name, right? i bought an all american 27 restored by her because i figured the restoration would be good (and the price was good), but then again, that was 15 years ago.

 

100% agree. Before TPG's, COA's or letters detailing/summarizing work carried enough legitimacy and weight. But of course, the tamper evident case and label notes cemented it's place and won out, and the people doing the work faded to the background to the point where most of the slabs bought and sold in the last 10+ years no longer keep any information on who did the work originally, just what was done.

 

that's a shame. i guess once they decide the resto meets "professional" standards, then it doesn't matter who did it.

 

here is the forum, in 2009, gushing over ciccione's work (the pics are gone though)

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3681420&fpart=4

Edited by the blob
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no one mentions who presses/restores their books in the listings -

 

------------

 

they certainly used to. ciccione was/is a good name, right? i bought an all american 27 restored by her because i figured the restoration would be good (and the price was good), but then again, that was 15 years ago.

 

100% agree. Before TPG's, COA's or letters detailing/summarizing work carried enough legitimacy and weight. But of course, the tamper evident case and label notes cemented it's place and won out, and the people doing the work faded to the background to the point where most of the slabs bought and sold in the last 10+ years no longer keep any information on who did the work originally, just what was done.

 

Actually, what is detected to be done.

 

And that is the basis of the entire disagreement between CGC and the Meyers.

 

Acc. to my understanding, CGC could not comfortably detect where the resto started and stopped.

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no one mentions who presses/restores their books in the listings -

 

------------

 

they certainly used to. ciccione was/is a good name, right? i bought an all american 27 restored by her because i figured the restoration would be good (and the price was good), but then again, that was 15 years ago.

 

100% agree. Before TPG's, COA's or letters detailing/summarizing work carried enough legitimacy and weight. But of course, the tamper evident case and label notes cemented it's place and won out, and the people doing the work faded to the background to the point where most of the slabs bought and sold in the last 10+ years no longer keep any information on who did the work originally, just what was done.

 

Actually, what is detected to be done.

 

And that is the basis of the entire disagreement between CGC and the Meyers.

 

Acc. to my understanding, CGC could not comfortably detect where the resto started and stopped.

 

I don't know much about professional restoration, but isn't the bolded part a textbook definition of good restoration work where someone can't discern original from resto?

 

If this is CGCs issue I can totally get why they would be hesitant to grade them as they might be having trouble identifying the extent of the work done.

 

 

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no one mentions who presses/restores their books in the listings -

 

------------

 

they certainly used to. ciccione was/is a good name, right? i bought an all american 27 restored by her because i figured the restoration would be good (and the price was good), but then again, that was 15 years ago.

 

100% agree. Before TPG's, COA's or letters detailing/summarizing work carried enough legitimacy and weight. But of course, the tamper evident case and label notes cemented it's place and won out, and the people doing the work faded to the background to the point where most of the slabs bought and sold in the last 10+ years no longer keep any information on who did the work originally, just what was done.

 

Actually, what is detected to be done.

 

And that is the basis of the entire disagreement between CGC and the Meyers.

 

Acc. to my understanding, CGC could not comfortably detect where the resto started and stopped.

 

I don't know much about professional restoration, but isn't the bolded part a textbook definition of good restoration work where someone can't discern original from resto?

 

If this is CGCs issue I can totally get why they would be hesitant to grade them as they might be having trouble identifying the extent of the work done.

 

 

That was my understanding as well (I know very little on professional resto)...I wish restored books had 2 grade pre resto and post resto but Roy has told me that's not possible in the past for that exact bolded reason.

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no one mentions who presses/restores their books in the listings -

 

------------

 

they certainly used to. ciccione was/is a good name, right? i bought an all american 27 restored by her because i figured the restoration would be good (and the price was good), but then again, that was 15 years ago.

 

100% agree. Before TPG's, COA's or letters detailing/summarizing work carried enough legitimacy and weight. But of course, the tamper evident case and label notes cemented it's place and won out, and the people doing the work faded to the background to the point where most of the slabs bought and sold in the last 10+ years no longer keep any information on who did the work originally, just what was done.

 

Actually, what is detected to be done.

 

And that is the basis of the entire disagreement between CGC and the Meyers.

 

Acc. to my understanding, CGC could not comfortably detect where the resto started and stopped.

 

I have no reason to doubt what you've been told or heard. With the exception of the entire cover being recoloured, and "comfortably" being defined as activity taking more than a few minutes of inspection/review time, I find it puzzling that one couldn't with the right equipment determine a machine printed cover, and a hand recoloured cover. (shrug)

 

I guess the difference here is CBCS has figured it out.

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no one mentions who presses/restores their books in the listings -

 

------------

 

they certainly used to. ciccione was/is a good name, right? i bought an all american 27 restored by her because i figured the restoration would be good (and the price was good), but then again, that was 15 years ago.

 

100% agree. Before TPG's, COA's or letters detailing/summarizing work carried enough legitimacy and weight. But of course, the tamper evident case and label notes cemented it's place and won out, and the people doing the work faded to the background to the point where most of the slabs bought and sold in the last 10+ years no longer keep any information on who did the work originally, just what was done.

 

Actually, what is detected to be done.

 

And that is the basis of the entire disagreement between CGC and the Meyers.

 

Acc. to my understanding, CGC could not comfortably detect where the resto started and stopped.

 

I have no reason to doubt what you've been told or heard. With the exception of the entire cover being recoloured, and "comfortably" being defined as activity taking more than a few minutes of inspection/review time, I find it puzzling that one couldn't with the right equipment determine a machine printed cover, and a hand recoloured cover. (shrug)

 

I guess the difference here is CBCS has figured it out.

 

or at the minimum, they think they have it figured out. Either way, this overall seems like a nearly impossible case to make.

 

You essentially have to prove that someone at the top of an industry is acting in bad faith, but the only people qualified to judge the merits of the case is the accused. And in the event that there is another party capable of making such a judgment, that would mean admitting that the accused are not alone at the top, and therefore cannot exert as much pervasive influence as they are accused. And that's without even mentioning that the only other people who MIGHT be qualified to judge the facts/issues surrounding comic restoration are most likely direct competitors of the accused, which is almost certainly an obvious conflict of interest.

 

I'm have no idea if any part of any accusations are true or not, but it seems like a tough case to win for the plaintiff, and CGC is obviously going to fight as hard as possible with little chance of settling. I don't know how Pennsylvania works, can the plaintiff be responsible for legal fees for both parties?

 

Although I DO hope it makes CGC reconsider their relationship with CCS, as there has always been an inherent perceived of conflict of interest that you'd think a grading company would want to avoid.

Edited by Revat
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no one mentions who presses/restores their books in the listings -

 

------------

 

they certainly used to. ciccione was/is a good name, right? i bought an all american 27 restored by her because i figured the restoration would be good (and the price was good), but then again, that was 15 years ago.

 

100% agree. Before TPG's, COA's or letters detailing/summarizing work carried enough legitimacy and weight. But of course, the tamper evident case and label notes cemented it's place and won out, and the people doing the work faded to the background to the point where most of the slabs bought and sold in the last 10+ years no longer keep any information on who did the work originally, just what was done.

 

Actually, what is detected to be done.

 

And that is the basis of the entire disagreement between CGC and the Meyers.

 

Acc. to my understanding, CGC could not comfortably detect where the resto started and stopped.

 

Did those early adopting buyers (before thread) know exactly what they were getting? Perhaps that thread served as an educational purpose. And such, whenever you have the dissemination of public information in any marketplace; price will adjust accordingly. Does a stock sell off dramatically because a few folks on the yahoo finance boards are bashing it? Of course not.

 

In a different life time, I worked for a broker of exotic autos.. There is a big big disparity in price between a restored lambo and a replica lambo. Even if said replica lambo utilizes some authentic parts from other lambo cars. Sure at face value they look pretty identical. But there is no comparison whatsoever and price will reflect that reality.

 

Historically everyone and their brother knows that all PLODs are not equal. Depending on what revisions have been made to a book will dictate a specific price point.

 

My impression all along was that CGC could not see where X began and Y ended so how could they put a grade on something like that, much less put it in a plastic slab with their logo?

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no one mentions who presses/restores their books in the listings -

 

------------

 

they certainly used to. ciccione was/is a good name, right? i bought an all american 27 restored by her because i figured the restoration would be good (and the price was good), but then again, that was 15 years ago.

 

100% agree. Before TPG's, COA's or letters detailing/summarizing work carried enough legitimacy and weight. But of course, the tamper evident case and label notes cemented it's place and won out, and the people doing the work faded to the background to the point where most of the slabs bought and sold in the last 10+ years no longer keep any information on who did the work originally, just what was done.

 

Actually, what is detected to be done.

 

And that is the basis of the entire disagreement between CGC and the Meyers.

 

Acc. to my understanding, CGC could not comfortably detect where the resto started and stopped.

 

I have no reason to doubt what you've been told or heard. With the exception of the entire cover being recoloured, and "comfortably" being defined as activity taking more than a few minutes of inspection/review time, I find it puzzling that one couldn't with the right equipment determine a machine printed cover, and a hand recoloured cover. (shrug)

 

I guess the difference here is CBCS has figured it out.

 

or at the minimum, they think they have it figured out. Either way, this overall seems like a nearly impossible case to make.

 

You essentially have to prove that someone at the top of an industry is acting in bad faith, but the only people qualified to judge the merits of the case is the accused. And in the event that there is another party capable of making such a judgment, that would mean admitting that the accused are not alone at the top, and therefore cannot exert as much pervasive influence as they are accused. And that's without even mentioning that the only other people who MIGHT be qualified to judge the facts/issues surrounding comic restoration are most likely direct competitors of the accused, which is almost certainly an obvious conflict of interest.

 

I'm have no idea if any part of any accusations are true or not, but it seems like a tough case to win for the plaintiff, and CGC is obviously going to fight as hard as possible with little chance of settling. I don't know how Pennsylvania works, can the plaintiff be responsible for legal fees for both parties?

 

Although I DO hope it makes CGC reconsider their relationship with CCS, as there has always been an inherent perceived of conflict of interest that you'd think a grading company would want to avoid.

 

I'm tech minded, and have a printing background - I'll admit when I first discovered this technique it was the early 2000's when I bought my first restored comic. I have also evolved my techniques when inspecting restoration in paintings, and determining period and print state etchings/impressions. Maybe it's a combination of these experiences that makes it seem puzzling that someone couldn't, but I still feel someone with a printing background would have a reasonable idea of how and/or could figure out a method to tell.

 

I definitely agree on what you said in the last paragraph.

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