First Nazi Cover 2 2

[Cat-Man_America]

The point is that whether by editorial intent or mistake, the unspecified symbols on planes blitz bombing the city still make this an anti-Axis war cover, ...swastika or Balkenkreuz notwithstanding.

 

No - not sure how many times this has to be re-hashed, but intent is irrelevant. Speculation is irrelevant. What actually is remains the salient factor.

 

Is a woman pregnant or is she not pregnant? Is MMC 2 an Axis cover or is it not an Axis cover?

 

MMC 2 is not an Axis cover.

 

I respectfully disagree. Pregnancy tests aren't always reliable, but after a full examination results can usually be verified with more certainty.

 

In the context of an illustration from '39, given the war news from Europe, when other possibilities are eliminated the circumstantial evidence makes the point.

 

Folks can form opinions based on whatever visual cues they wish to accept or dismiss, but it's a tough sell trying to dispute the evidence that Axis planes are blitzing a city on the cover of MM #2. The Angel text story reflects the cover (both illustrated by Charles Mazoujian) which bears this out. Those are the salient points.

 

IOW, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then why isn't on the menu?

[BB-Gun]

So listing the place where the battle occurs is unimportant (AM 8 and 9 as well as MM 2 does that), showing tanks with swastikas in the story is unimportant and calling the troops NAZIs is unimportant, what about a picture of Tojo, Hitler and Mussolini together.

Amazing Mystery (September 1939).

 

Clearly, the symbol on the cover, and not the text or the stories and pictures in comic, is what is used as criteria for a WWII comic.

Edited January 15, 2017 by BB-Gun

[BB-Gun]

Is this a story about Nazis? Is the symbol more important than the supporting text or do you need both?

 

[Foley]

Well, the swastika did originate in India. So clearly American Indians would have decorated their teepees with it, it's only logical.

[rjpb]

Well, the swastika did originate in India. So clearly American Indians would have decorated their teepees with it, it's only logical.

 

It was a design used in blankets, baskets, etc., by Southwestern tribes, particularly the Navajo. It even showed up inside an arrowhead on AZ state route markers in the 1920s.

 

In the early 20th century it was considered a good luck symbol in this country, akin to the four-leaf clover. Obviously, as it became associated with the Nazis, it's use in design and advertising declined precipitously.

[Foley]

Well, the swastika did originate in India. So clearly American Indians would have decorated their teepees with it, it's only logical.

 

It was a design used in blankets, baskets, etc., by Southwestern tribes, particularly the Navajo. It even showed up inside an arrowhead on AZ state route markers in the 1920s.

 

In the early 20th century in was considered a good luck symbol in this country, akin to the four-leaf clover. Obviously, as it became associated with the Nazis, it's use in design and advertising declined precipitously.

 

Very interesting, thanks! I knew it was sacred to some eastern religions like Buddhism and Hinduism, but never knew much of its use in North America.

 

Had a quick read about it just now, and my knowledge has been broadened. Much obliged.

[Paul © ® ⚽️💙™]

I think this is a groovy thread.

 

[Sqeggs]

Well, the swastika did originate in India. So clearly American Indians would have decorated their teepees with it, it's only logical.

 

It was a design used in blankets, baskets, etc., by Southwestern tribes, particularly the Navajo. It even showed up inside an arrowhead on AZ state route markers in the 1920s.

 

In the early 20th century in was considered a good luck symbol in this country, akin to the four-leaf clover. Obviously, as it became associated with the Nazis, it's use in design and advertising declined precipitously.

 

I remember some years ago, there was a controversy over swastikas that were in the floor design of a local post office. They had been ignored for years. When someone researched why they were there, it turned out that the po had been built in the early twentieth century and they were meant to be part of a Native American motif for the building's design.

[jimjum12]

Well, the swastika did originate in India. So clearly American Indians would have decorated their teepees with it, it's only logical.

 

It was a design used in blankets, baskets, etc., by Southwestern tribes, particularly the Navajo. It even showed up inside an arrowhead on AZ state route markers in the 1920s.

 

In the early 20th century in was considered a good luck symbol in this country, akin to the four-leaf clover. Obviously, as it became associated with the Nazis, it's use in design and advertising declined precipitously.

 

I remember some years ago, there was a controversy over swastikas that were in the floor design of a local post office. They had been ignored for years. When someone researched why they were there, it turned out that the po had been built in the early twentieth century and they were meant to be part of a Native American motif for the building's design.

 

....IIRC, the Swastika was also an ancient Chinese occult symbol before the Third Reich claimed it for it's own.... GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[catman76]

Swastikas were really common in this country too as good luck symbols around the turn of the century and until the nazis came around. I was watching an early 30s James Cagney movie recently and in it he is a crook pulling scams and one of them is something to do with good luck swastika charms. I also have a 30s pulp somewhere with a swastika in the publishers logo on the cover. it was pretty common

[catman76]

a swastika on a 1931 film fun...

[BB-Gun]

The point is that whether by editorial intent or mistake, the unspecified symbols on planes blitz bombing the city still make this an anti-Axis war cover, ...swastika or Balkenkreuz notwithstanding.

 

No - not sure how many times this has to be re-hashed, but intent is irrelevant. Speculation is irrelevant. What actually is remains the salient factor.

 

Is a woman pregnant or is she not pregnant? Is MMC 2 an Axis cover or is it not an Axis cover?

 

MMC 2 is not an Axis cover.

 

I respectfully disagree. Pregnancy tests aren't always reliable, but after a full examination results can usually be verified with more certainty.

 

In the context of an illustration from '39, given the war news from Europe, when other possibilities are eliminated the circumstantial evidence makes the point.

 

Folks can form opinions based on whatever visual cues they wish to accept or dismiss, but it's a tough sell trying to dispute the evidence that Axis planes are blitzing a city on the cover of MM #2. The Angel text story reflects the cover (both illustrated by Charles Mazoujian) which bears this out. Those are the salient points.

 

IOW, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then why isn't on the menu?

 

Here is a FW-190 which has a Balkenkreuz on the body and wing.

Edited January 23, 2017 by BB-Gun

[Cat-Man_America]

Here's the Wikipedia entry on swastika. For those unfamiliar with the history, it might be worth boning up on it for the purposes of this discussion...

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

 

I think it's more relevant to a discussion of the first Nazi cover(s) to determine the focus of the cover rather than how an appropriated symbol is used on it. If the cover is a blitzkrieg bombing in 1939, then that cover is clearly making a reference to Nazi expansionism, the war in Europe and our involvement in it.

 

I'm not suggesting that MM #2 is the only '39 cover to touch on Nazi conquest or the looming threat to American values, but whether the actual swastika was used is moot in respect to the message the cover conveys and the absolute clarity the text story bears out.

 

One can endlessly debate an artist's or publishers intent in not using a swastika that could be unambiguously tied to Axis invasion and conquest. FWIW, it's doubtful that evidence would still exist of an editorial decision to obscure such symbolism. That said, it's good to keep in mind that Bund rallies were still drawing large crowds in the U.S. as late as 1940.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American_Bund

[sfcityduck]

Worth noting that the Blitz didn't start until 1940, so the cover to MMC 2 cover couldn't be a reference to the Blitz.

 

Instead it is like earlier covers such as Action 11 (cover dated April 1939), loosely inspired by and reflective of the events in Europe, but it is not explicitly tied to any real event.

 

For Action 11, you can argue that war in Europe had not yet been declared (although Japan had invaded China in 1937), but many knew it was coming and it clearly inspired that cover. I'd say the same thing was true of MMC 2 (cover dated December 1939) because it had to have been conceived before WWII officially started in September 1939 and, as I said, significantly pre-dated the Blitz.

 

 

 

 

[Sqeggs]

Worth noting that the Blitz didn't start until 1940, so the cover to MMC 2 cover couldn't be a reference to the Blitz.

 

Instead it is like earlier covers such as Action 11 (cover dated April 1939), loosely inspired by and reflective of the events in Europe, but it is not explicitly tied to any real event.

 

For Action 11, you can argue that war in Europe had not yet been declared (although Japan had invaded China in 1937), but many knew it was coming and it clearly inspired that cover. I'd say the same thing was true of MMC 2 (cover dated December 1939) because it had to have been conceived before WWII officially started in September 1939 and, as I said, significantly pre-dated the Blitz.

 

 

The German bombing of Warsaw in September 1939 got a lot of coverage, although that event may have been too late to have inspired the MM 2 cover. The German and Italian bombings in Spain during the Spanish Civil War were also well known.

 

The city being bombed on the cover of MM 2 looks more like NYC than it does London (or Warsaw or Guernica). It may well have been intended to portray a hypothetical future bombing of NYC.

[sfcityduck]

 

The city being bombed on the cover of MM 2 looks more like NYC than it does London (or Warsaw or Guernica). It may well have been intended to portray a hypothetical future bombing of NYC.

 

That's the way I see it. Just as Action 11 appears to be a prescient portrayal of a hypothetical Battle of the Atlantic.

[MrBedrock]

Worth noting that the Blitz didn't start until 1940, so the cover to MMC 2 cover couldn't be a reference to the Blitz.

 

Also worth noting that the British called the German air raids the Blitz in reference to Blitzkrieg, lightning war, the Germans own war strategy used since the Spanish Civil War and certainly referenced worldwide with the invasion of Poland.

[Cat-Man_America]

 

Worth noting that the Blitz didn't start until 1940, so the cover to MMC 2 cover couldn't be a reference to the Blitz.

 

Instead it is like earlier covers such as Action 11 (cover dated April 1939), loosely inspired by and reflective of the events in Europe, but it is not explicitly tied to any real event.

 

For Action 11, you can argue that war in Europe had not yet been declared (although Japan had invaded China in 1937), but many knew it was coming and it clearly inspired that cover. I'd say the same thing was true of MMC 2 (cover dated December 1939) because it had to have been conceived before WWII officially started in September 1939 and, as I said, significantly pre-dated the Blitz.

 

 

 

 

"The Blitz" or the bombing of London in an effort to demoralize England and force peace terms allowing Hitler's unabated expansion in Europe is as removed from Germany's earlier blitzkrieg conquest strategy as employed in Poland and elsewhere as it is from the Barroom Blitz by the Sweet.

 

The term blitzkrieg was in use in the mid-30's, but gained more international notice when employed by western journalists as Germany pursued an agenda of expansion, most clearly demonstrated by the annexing of Poland in August '39 followed by invasion on Sept. 1.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blitzkrieg

 

There is no evidence that the Charles Mazoujian cover was conceived before the invasion of Poland or at least in anticipation of it. Again I refer folks to the text story and CM art from the same issue.

 

Action #11 is pretty generic for a war cover, if it's that. The submarine could be from any country. In fact, it could be called "accident at sea" as in a collision of two warships from the same country since no combat appears to be involved. Also, Superman isn't even a featured character on the cover. Maybe the captains of both ships should've given the Angel an SOS.

[sfcityduck]

 

There is no evidence that the Charles Mazoujian cover was conceived before the invasion of Poland or at least in anticipation of it. Again I refer folks to the text story and CM art from the same issue.

 

 

There's also no evidence that the cover was conceived before the invasion of Poland..

 

The Angel feature concerned Hong Kong. The Angel text story does provide strong evidence that the book went to print after the invasion of Poland, but a text story is quick and easy to produce so that's not evidence it was illustrated after the invasion of Poland. Still, I do have to concede that it is theoretically possible that the intent of the cover was to be anti-Nazi. But, nothing on the cover proves that, and the conclusions you are drawing from a text story, instead of the actual story art, are far from the only explanation.

 

I view MMC 2 as just another cover reflecting the war or coming war, but not explicitly anti-German (or anti-Japanese). It's a fanciful vision of an attack by unnamed foes on NYC to my eyes, not an illustration for the text story about Poland (Warsaw didn't look like that).

 

We can agree to disagree about Action 11, but I think that an American populace well versed in the history of the Lusitania and the U-Boats of WWI, and with the shadow of looming war pretty obvious, would likely draw an obvious conclusion that Action 11 depicted a conflict between two hostile war boats.

 

In short, I view both Action 11 and MMC 2 as covers reflecting the looming war. But, neither was explicit, they merely implied.

Edited January 24, 2017 by sfcityduck

[Ameri]

By the way, airplanes on the cover of Marvel Mystery 2 have the Balkenkreuz which is a symbol of the Wehrmacht and it was used in WWI as well as WWII. The Swastika was a symbol of the party and became the national flag from 1933-1945 more or less.

 

The art posted in the first thread shows that the plane did not have the Balkenkreuz on the wing. It is the same symbol that is on the tail on the plane. I was remembering these debates and it's why I wanted to find the thread.

 

The text inside does not show a plane with the Balkenkreuz but the text talks about the attack in Poland and the pilots speak German. The cover still looks like a portion of the Balkenkreuz which you do not have to believe.

 

Donnerwetter BB! We forgot page 2.