szav Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Looking for info on the mechanics of rust migration. If this has been discussed before if someone could be so kind as to post a link to the relevant thread I'd appreciate it. Searching "rust migration" brings up too many hits to find anything useful on the subject. Main questions are: 1) once staples have become rusty is there any way to prevent migration, or will it eventually happen? Once migration has actually started, is there any way to arrest it or is there an inevitable creep further onto the cover/pages? 2) does slabbing a pook help arrest or slow already in progress rust migration? 3) has anyone ever bought a slabbed book that had rusty staples without migration, and noticed migration over time within the slab? Appreciate any insight that can be offered here, thanks! djzombi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrapin Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Best thing I can suggest is to keep the books in as low a humidty as possible as this will certainly increase the rate of rusting. The migration into the paper would depend on the paper. It's an oxidation process so the pH of the paper is a determining factor beyond the atmospheric conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
szav Posted August 21, 2017 Author Share Posted August 21, 2017 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Terrapin said: Best thing I can suggest is to keep the books in as low a humidty as possible as this will certainly increase the rate of rusting. The migration into the paper would depend on the paper. It's an oxidation process so the pH of the paper is a determining factor beyond the atmospheric conditions. Awesome,,, just the sort of scientific answer I'm looking for. Thanks. Still curious if anyone has direct evidence as to how slabbing affects all this. And if it depends on the paper...I guess I know very little about the sort of paper the different comic book publishers of the Golden Age used. Does migration tend to be seen, or to be worse, with particular publishers? And...when a book is slabbed they put some sort of paper in there that absorbs/reduces the acidity? ...oh christ I'm gonna need to review my chemistry. Acid reducing paper would raise PH...which would...prevent/inhibit oxidation? Edited August 21, 2017 by szavisca Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Tony S Posted August 21, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted August 21, 2017 It is generally accepted in the paper conservation field that if you keep the storage conditions at acceptable levels and the books are completely dried out, that rust migration from rusty staples will not get any worse. Fortunately acceptable levels are the same levels human beings are comfortable in. So if you heat your house in the winter and air condition it in the summer, your paper collectibles are in a reasonably good environment. It doesn't really matter if slabbed or not. The inner holders of third party professional grading companies are pretty good moisture and atmospheric barriers. But not impervious to either. Slabbed comic books that have been stored in humid environments have had staple rust form or worsen while slabbed. Gun safes have been noted by CGC as particular storage problem. If stored in gun safes the humidity level needs to be monitored and controlled. szav, Hollywood1892, Larryw7 and 9 others 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
szav Posted August 21, 2017 Author Share Posted August 21, 2017 4 minutes ago, Tony S said: It is generally accepted in the paper conservation field that if you keep the storage conditions at acceptable levels and the books are completely dried out, that rust migration from rusty staples will not get any worse. Fortunately acceptable levels are the same levels human beings are comfortable in. So if you heat your house in the winter and air condition it in the summer, your paper collectibles are in a reasonably good environment. It doesn't really matter if slabbed or not. The inner holders of third party professional grading companies are pretty good moisture and atmospheric barriers. But not impervious to either. Slabbed comic books that have been stored in humid environments have had staple rust form or worsen while slabbed. Gun safes have been noted by CGC as particular storage problem. If stored in gun safes the humidity level needs to be monitored and controlled. Thanks, appreciate this response. Pretty much addresses all my concerns. Tony S 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hero Restoration Posted August 26, 2017 Share Posted August 26, 2017 On 8/20/2017 at 10:08 PM, Tony S said: It is generally accepted in the paper conservation field that if you keep the storage conditions at acceptable levels and the books are completely dried out, that rust migration from rusty staples will not get any worse. Fortunately acceptable levels are the same levels human beings are comfortable in. So if you heat your house in the winter and air condition it in the summer, your paper collectibles are in a reasonably good environment. It doesn't really matter if slabbed or not. The inner holders of third party professional grading companies are pretty good moisture and atmospheric barriers. But not impervious to either. Slabbed comic books that have been stored in humid environments have had staple rust form or worsen while slabbed. Gun safes have been noted by CGC as particular storage problem. If stored in gun safes the humidity level needs to be monitored and controlled. This is dead on! KCOComics, szav, Tony S and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollywood1892 Posted February 27, 2021 Share Posted February 27, 2021 Excellent and informative thread djzombi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoggyNelson Posted February 27, 2021 Share Posted February 27, 2021 Rusty staples the number one deal breaker for me😢😡😡 The Lions Den, Kramerica, djzombi and 1 other 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timely Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 On 8/20/2017 at 10:26 PM, Terrapin said: Best thing I can suggest is to keep the books in as low a humidty as possible as this will certainly increase the rate of rusting. The migration into the paper would depend on the paper. It's an oxidation process so the pH of the paper is a determining factor beyond the atmospheric conditions. If the humidity is TOO low that is actually bad for the paper. It will accelerate the aging process of the paper if it is dried out due to low humidity. High humidity results in foxing, mold and rusty staples. Somewhere in the middle to slightly less humidity seems to be the best, desired option. Randall Dowling, Hollywood1892, djzombi and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreatCaesarsGhost Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 (edited) I’ll be interested to see how the rusty staples of this rare and desirable book will affect the final hammer. 51st OPG in this condition is $2617. A book like this, considered a classic war cover by most everyone but Bob, would normally sell for 3 to 4 times guide. So without rust, I'd expect a hammer price of $7850, minimum. I guess we will soon know . . . Edited August 17, 2021 by GreatCaesarsGhost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreatCaesarsGhost Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 Question: what are the pros and cons of physically scraping rust off a staple? Theoretically, a staple could be removed, scraped free of rust, and replaced. I realize if the rust already migrated to the paper, such an exercise may be no more than rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. It doesn’t appear as though cgc or ccs offer such a service. is this a wildly dumb question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qalyar Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 On 8/17/2021 at 12:41 PM, GreatCaesarsGhost said: Question: what are the pros and cons of physically scraping rust off a staple? Theoretically, a staple could be removed, scraped free of rust, and replaced. I realize if the rust already migrated to the paper, such an exercise may be no more than rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. It doesn’t appear as though cgc or ccs offer such a service. is this a wildly dumb question? It's not a wildly dumb question, but it probably isn't a particularly effective solution. Your first problem, of course, is that you're taking a scraping edge to metal adjacent to paper. That invites risk of damage, either from accidentally contacting the paper with the scraper or caused by the mechanical stress being placed on the staple by the scraping process. You also risk contaminating the paper with the rust powder produced by the scraping action. Those hazards aside, there are two reasons why this isn't a great solution. First, staple rust is a progressive process. You may remove the obvious rust from the surface, but that does not mean that the proximal surface isn't still chemically compromised -- it might not look rusty, but it is almost certainly more prone to redevelop oxidation than a staple that had never rusted in the first place. Arguably the more significant problem is that the areas of the staple most relevant to rust migration are those in contact with the paper, and the only way you would be able to address those surfaces would be to remove the staple before treatment. And at that point, you've opened the door to a lot of other possibilities than just mechanical abrasion: up to and including replacing the staples entirely. Needless to say, rust scraping is obvious upon examination (as are most other ways to clean or replace removed staples). I am not certain whether the "staples cleaned" or "stapled replaced" notations are in and of themselves always sufficient to get a book a non-blue label (at least at one point, this earned you green but it might now result in purple or Conserved), but I think that's fairly likely. Yorick and GreatCaesarsGhost 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreatCaesarsGhost Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 On 8/17/2021 at 9:28 AM, GreatCaesarsGhost said: I’ll be interested to see how the rusty staples of this rare and desirable book will affect the final hammer. 51st OPG in this condition is $2617. A book like this, considered a classic war cover by most everyone but Bob, would normally sell for 3 to 4 times guide. So without rust, I'd expect a hammer price of $7850, minimum. I guess we will soon know . . . It ended up going for triple guide. Guess rust doesn’t bother everyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spyder! Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 On 8/31/2021 at 9:51 PM, GreatCaesarsGhost said: It ended up going for triple guide. Guess rust doesn’t bother everyone Wow! You're guess was remarkably close! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spyder! Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 On 8/21/2017 at 12:08 AM, Tony S said: It is generally accepted in the paper conservation field that if you keep the storage conditions at acceptable levels and the books are completely dried out, that rust migration from rusty staples will not get any worse. Fortunately acceptable levels are the same levels human beings are comfortable in. So if you heat your house in the winter and air condition it in the summer, your paper collectibles are in a reasonably good environment. It doesn't really matter if slabbed or not. The inner holders of third party professional grading companies are pretty good moisture and atmospheric barriers. But not impervious to either. Slabbed comic books that have been stored in humid environments have had staple rust form or worsen while slabbed. Gun safes have been noted by CGC as particular storage problem. If stored in gun safes the humidity level needs to be monitored and controlled. The one thing I remember being recommended if storing your comics in a safe is to use silica gel packets to reduce moisture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forbush-Man Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 I know these posts are a couple years old, but I don't remember a gun safe being the problem. It was fire-proof safes that were the problem, as they have gel components within the doors and walls that can cause the moisture problem. A typical gun safe does not have those components. I have used a gun safe for over 20 years now, and have had zero problem from it as a result. I know I had considered a fire-proof safe originally, but the simple fact of a fire would mean intense heat, and as comics are stored in plastic in one form or another (plastic comic bags, Mylars, slabs) the intense heat generated would most likely be a problem. If not the heat, the water used to put out the fire would be a massive problem. With those thoughts in mind I opted for a gun safe and have been very happy with it. If you live in highly humid areas, your results may differ, you can do your own research and see. I am glad I thought it through before buying a fire-proof safe, as this issue of rusted staples being caused in a gun safe came up after I had decided against a fire proof safe. A fire-proof safe would be fine for money, deeds, paper records at best where you just need to show the original for a replacement or verification. Just my Tony S 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stronguy Posted March 31, 2023 Share Posted March 31, 2023 (edited) On 8/21/2017 at 12:08 AM, Tony S said: Gun safes have been noted by CGC as particular storage problem. Unless they have updated their advisory, the problem was specifically with fireproof safes like lock boxes, not gun safes broadly, and it was only anecdotal because they couldn't think of anything else. The theory was, there is a fire retardant chemical in some lock boxes that doesn't play well with comic staples that are in slabs. There doesn't seem to be any problem with other stapled documents stored in them, just slabbed comics. On 8/21/2017 at 12:08 AM, Tony S said: If stored in gun safes the humidity level needs to be monitored and controlled. This is true of all corrodible things stored in a gun safe. Always, always, always have a descant in there or moisture could build up. Edited March 31, 2023 by Stronguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeypost Posted March 31, 2023 Share Posted March 31, 2023 On 3/31/2023 at 10:03 AM, Stronguy said: Unless they have updated their advisory, the problem was specifically with fireproof safes like lock boxes, not gun safes broadly, and it was only anecdotal because they couldn't think of anything else. The theory was, there is a fire retardant chemical in some lock boxes that doesn't play well with comic staples that are in slabs. There doesn't seem to be any problem with other stapled documents stored in them, just slabbed comics. This is true of all corrodible things stored in a gun safe. Always, always, always have a descant in there or moisture could build up. Most people would be surprised at exactly how much moisture the pages of an older comic retain, even one stored under optimal conditions. Stronguy and greggy 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buttock Posted March 31, 2023 Share Posted March 31, 2023 On 3/31/2023 at 8:03 AM, Stronguy said: Unless they have updated their advisory, the problem was specifically with fireproof safes like lock boxes, not gun safes broadly, and it was only anecdotal because they couldn't think of anything else. The theory was, there is a fire retardant chemical in some lock boxes that doesn't play well with comic staples that are in slabs. There doesn't seem to be any problem with other stapled documents stored in them, just slabbed comics. This is true of all corrodible things stored in a gun safe. Always, always, always have a descant in there or moisture could build up. Fireproof safes use a chemical packet that releases moisture when heated. Over time that moisture can slowly seep out, which is what can cause the staples to rust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...